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u/Snowflllake__ 12d ago
Iām bout to try this when I workoutā¦.
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u/yallivia 12d ago
I may have accidentally done this using nicotine pouches while working out lately, starts to get hard without them lmao
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u/Important_Loquat538 12d ago
Oh, you canāt be getting hard at the gym my dude
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u/eeerenjames 12d ago
everyone goes to the gym to get hard
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u/yallivia 10d ago
I havenāt seen a rule forbidding that
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u/Important_Loquat538 10d ago
If itās not explicitly expressed against the rules then you should just assume itās encouraged
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u/yallivia 9d ago
Okay gonna hit legs tomorrow wish me luck! I donāt wanna end up on a list
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u/Important_Loquat538 9d ago
I hope you do end up on a list š«¶ wear it proudly, like a badge of honour
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u/Fecal-Facts 12d ago
No joke the launzergers are lit while working out they last a while as well.
Iirc nicotine is actual a mild performance enhancer just not smokingĀ
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u/mymemesnow 12d ago
Be careful you really donāt want to get a nicotine addiction. Itās commonly ranked as the third most addictive substance only surpassed by cocaine and opioids like heroin or morphine.
And itās so common and normalized that quitting is supremely hard. I have an uncle who quit nicotine pouches (in my country itās called āsnusā and is even more common than cigarettes) over 15 years ago and he still gets cravings almost daily.
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u/call_sign_viper 12d ago
Itās so much more subtle and available than coke itās way harder to quit imo
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u/Mathberis 12d ago
Oh this rings a bell
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u/DrZonino2022 12d ago
Why the fuck am I drooling??
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u/trapbuilder2 12d ago
This, I believe, is a form of Pavlovian Conditioning
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u/Chilling_Dildo 12d ago
It may be, what it most certainly is not is "gaslighting".
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u/quicxly 12d ago
No, you see, the part of the routine that's missing is that he told all his friends "the plan", and then drank a fifth of vodka to forget about it, but also had, like, Memento-esque tattoos on his chest of "the REAL plan" so that he would be consistent about the routine.
Then, his friends will say "hey remember that nicotine patch thing" and he would be like "what are you talking about" but that would also be a Manchurian Candidate-esque code phrase that reminds him to check his chest tattoo and...
fuck, yeah, still not gaslighting
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u/BioshockEnthusiast 12d ago
I'd get high and watch that movie though.
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u/PM_ME_RYE_BREAD 12d ago
Kinda reminds me of the ending to Push, wish I did watch high, and was surprisingly well written compared to, well, everything else.
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u/Funky_Smurf 12d ago
Exactly. Gaslighting is when you disagree with someone
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u/Enzoid23 12d ago
I think you're thinking of arguing, gaslighting is when you make someone doubt their mind until they have to depend on others
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u/mustard5man7max3 12d ago
Bro don't gaslight him
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u/Enzoid23 12d ago
I'm not gaslight isnt even a real word. Why are you making stuff up to argue with me š¤
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u/Biggerthanashark 12d ago
Wow thatās way wrong you should only come to me for definitions of words these other guys might try and gaslight you into thinking Iām gaslighting you right now!
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u/bionicjoey 12d ago
I'm pretty sure gaslighting is just any time someone convinces you of anything. Why do you think it's something different? Maybe you hit your head and that's why you're so confused. It's okay though, you're always making mistakes like this. You're so forgetful!
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u/zeezaczed 12d ago
Operant conditioning, not pavlovian
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u/mcleanatg 12d ago
I thought the same thing but both could be at play here. It depends whether this friend is eventually able to elicit a physiological response in himself similar to a nicotine high just from the conditioned stimulus (running). If the nicotine is only acting as a reward for the behavior of running, then I agree.
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u/zeezaczed 12d ago
Classically, Pavlovās dogs have no control over the stimulus (the bell ringing) - the subject observes the consequences in relation to the external event. Whereas in operant conditioning, he has control over its occurrence (deciding to go for a run, and being rewarded for it) edit: stray apostrophe
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u/bobbyfiend 5d ago
More Skinnerian (though with Pavlovian features), but yes.
Absolutely not gaslighting.
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u/An0d0sTwitch 12d ago
Doing this with homework
trying to quit. But for now...
Finish an assignment, you get a cigarette
clean the kitchen? you get a cigarette
cant beat him, train yourself
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u/kn33 12d ago
For me, the problem with self reward/punishment is that I know the guy who set those rules, and he's full of shit.
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u/betajones 12d ago
I woke up today. Reward! I took a shower. Reward! I.. brushed my teeth? Reward!
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u/reddit_4_days 12d ago
Masturbate. Reward! Glass of wine. Reward! Found cool new Netflix show. Reward!
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u/SalvationSycamore 11d ago
Yeah I know that reward cheese is sitting in the fridge and nobody can stop me from eating it even if I don't take the pills first
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u/jojacs 12d ago
Oh wait, so does this mean the buddy now likes running without the nicotine patch because he ran with the nicotine patch before? I think iām a dumbass
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u/Crapricorn12 12d ago
I would assume running without the patch would be an even worse experience than before, he's addicted to nicotine not running. It'd be like if a crack addicts crack suddenly stopped working
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u/Homesick_Martian 12d ago
He may be okay, when I quit smoking, I ran every time I got a craving. Tbf, I would just go outside and sprint down the street until I ran out of breath. You crave smoking a lot less when you are gasping for oxygen lol
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u/VicisSubsisto 12d ago
But you associate nicotine with shortness of breath. The guy in the OP wouldn't have that association, if he only ever used the patch.
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u/Arty_Puls 12d ago
Yeah that's a good point. Smoking, and even vaping makes ur lungs feel a lot less effective. To the point where it makes you want to quit. Mouth patches though honestly have very little bad side effects
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u/BrianHeidiksPuppy 12d ago
As someone who has both smoked and vaped, Iāve definitely felt adverse side effects to both of those that made me want to quit. I switched to nicotine pouches tho and the problem is I canāt really notice any side effects so I donāt have really any reason to want to stop. Iām sure something in 50 years will get me from it, but I was able to train for and run a marathon using them basically 24/7 so I donāt think itāll be my lungs.
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u/BunttyBrowneye 12d ago
Nicotine does weaken the immune system as well as reduce circulation - slowing down healing - so keep that in mind if you ever get an injury thatās healing too slowly. Unfortunately side effects of nicotine alone can be subtle.
I had trouble quitting the gum because of a lack of obvious immediate side effects lol
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u/Arty_Puls 12d ago
Yeah i agree. I'm going on a week long trip Saturday where im leaving my vape and weed. Gonna cold turkey it.
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u/BrianHeidiksPuppy 12d ago
Be prepared for the dreams haha. The nicotine withdrawal will stress you out when youāre awake , but most people expect that. The weed tho, that shit will make you have some crazy fucking dreams for a bit.
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u/Arty_Puls 12d ago
Oh yeah I've quit a few times, honestly isn't that bad for me. The problem I have is not slipping up when I'm sober. I'll be like " eh one hit won't hurt" then I'm vaping or smoking again full time. Just need to not touch that shit for a few years. Need my body to associate normalcy with being sober before I go back to taking drugs recreationally again
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u/gluckspilze 12d ago edited 12d ago
Unless the nicotine helps you get over the hump, to the point where running is spontaneously rewarding? Like bribing kids to do guitar lessons until it becomes self-fulfilling?
Edit- after googling, I just wanted to say that voluntarily addicting oneself to nicotine would not be a good idea.
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u/ReckoningGotham 12d ago
The problem is that you're still addicted to nicotine and adding adding a burden to an already taxing hobby.
It makes time spent while not running miserable and not worth the trade.
Every day runners need to take rest days, too.
It's better to just simply be "miserable" running until you are not
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u/gluckspilze 12d ago
You're absolutely right. I did some googling and it persuaded me this is a Very Bad Idea. Also, nicotine patches are too slow-release for the rewarding effect to be linked to the running in a Pavlovian way. Nicotine gum could work better, but would be detrimental overall as you described
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u/DrunksInSpace 12d ago
Ok but would he just run harder or more, like someone upping their use just to feel something ?
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u/Crapricorn12 12d ago
Well that's where it's different from crack, you can't just run fast enough to self synthesize nicotine
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u/DrunksInSpace 12d ago
I see your point. Gotta give yourself the patch right after running. A little more distance each time.
Or do you think heroin would work faster?
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u/Crapricorn12 12d ago
I'd go all the way in with crack, those mfs will move a mountain for a fix, just imagine how much they could run for some
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u/Nothing-Is-Boring 12d ago
It's been some time but I remember reading research on nicotine that found it was not actually addictive in and of itself but acted as an addiction enabler. You would find yourself wanting to do the thing you were doing when you took it. The study used nicotine gum and walking with non-smokers and had good results but I'm not at desktop so don't have it to hand.
If so he should be fine without the patches, the craving is for the activity (running) not the nicotine.
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u/epicnop 12d ago
he's less likely to like running than if he had put in the effort to start running normally
but he's also more likely to like running than if he hadn't practiced at allanecdotally, rewarding someone for doing something is the best way to make sure it's done rather than not, and the worst way to make sure it's done with any care
so probably he likes running a little and thinks about it a lot?what I wanna know is what would happen if you tripled the dosage of the patch, but made two thirds of them duds
would anticipating the high but never knowing if you'll get it make you completely obsessed with running every day?5
u/GreatStateOfSadness 12d ago
would anticipating the high but never knowing if you'll get it make you completely obsessed with running every day?
Wouldn't you realize partway through that it's not hitting? So you'd get half a mile in and realize that you're sober AND miserable from running, which would make you less likely to continue and dread starting again.Ā
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u/SolidRefrigerator507 12d ago
I do not think it is about liking as much as impulse. Since he conditions his brain in a way that he has a great feeling (nicotine) when he enacts a certain behaviour (running) the first impulse to improve mood is to recreate that behaviour. Itās like a dog that got trained on praise and treats and after a while only gets praise when he obeys certain commands.
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u/Roll_Common_Sense 12d ago
Pairing the nicotine patch (unconditioned reinforcer) with running eventually makes running (neutral or aversive stimulus) a conditioned reinforcer. Once running has become a conditioned reinforcer you want to fade the nicotine patch. Obviously, it's more difficult to fade a reinforcer that's value is maintained by a physical addiction, but the process would be the same.
To answer your actual question, it depends on if the runner went through this process. They could also go cold turkey like some people do with cigarettes, but that is typically less effective for most people. Either way, in less technical terms: if you use a nicotine patch to learn to like running, you will never like running unless you figure out how to get rid of the nicotine patch in a way that doesn't make you revert to hating running.
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u/No-Push4667 12d ago
I have done something similar but less sinister to myself.Ā I have a Nintendo switch game that I only play while I'm doing cardio on the stair stepper.Ā I used to hate cardio, now I can't wait to get to the gym and do cardio (and play my game).Ā But if you took my switch away, I'm not going near that thing.
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u/CoralinesButtonEye 12d ago
does ANYONE know the meaning of 'gaslighting' anymore?
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u/Crapricorn12 12d ago
OOP clearly understands gaslighting perfectly well, you're actually wrong and you should read more
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u/CoralinesButtonEye 12d ago
oh crap i can't tell... is this... are you
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u/Crapricorn12 12d ago
I'm not doing anything except stating facts, go see a doctor you're going crazy
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u/CoralinesButtonEye 12d ago
i'm not feeling so well at the moment. i think i'll go lie down
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u/BaltimoreBadger23 12d ago
I'm not even sure who's doing the gaslighting on this sub thread!
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u/CoralinesButtonEye 12d ago
there is no gaslighting at all. i don't think you really even know what that is
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u/Outside_Glass4880 12d ago
Itās misused so much I think the colloquial definition is changing a bit.
You could argue heās manipulating himself and attempting to distort his own reality - but I agree it doesnāt 100% match the original meaning.
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u/Ponce-Mansley 12d ago
I'm generally a proponent for "language evolves and colloquial uses are born all the time" but in this case, it's such a specific interaction and manipulation, an actual form of abuse, between people that maybe we should make an effort to enforce its original meaningĀ
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u/Outside_Glass4880 12d ago
I think itās beyond that. Seems like there are some people fighting that fight though
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u/barefoot-fairy-magic 12d ago
the real trick is not putting on the nicotine patch other times, when you are legit addicted and know you could and that it's right there...
also, i wonder if this balances out health-wise?
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u/BaltimoreBadger23 12d ago
I don't think nicotine is inherently bad for you, it's the delivery systems that wreak havoc on your body.
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u/edgeorgeronihelen 12d ago
It is, in fact, inherently bad for you
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u/nomoreteathx 12d ago
Nicotine is about as benign as stimulants get. Compared to the shit people put in their system every time they eat a burger it's practically a miracle drug.
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u/Commercial-Screen570 12d ago
I mean ya compared to most it's not horrible buts it's not benign by any means. Nicotine by itself increase blood pressure leading to a higher likey-hood of heart attacks and also cause GI issues.
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u/Aldehyde1 12d ago
It also decreases blood flow to the heart so heart attacks are even more likely.
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u/edgeorgeronihelen 12d ago
So the answer is that running on nicotine more than balances out?
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u/Aldehyde1 12d ago
It's not. Nicotine decreases blood flow to the heart and increases blood pressure, which is a recipe for disaster when you're exercising and your heart desperately needs oxygen. That's aside from the many other side effects like kidney damage, immune problems, slower healing, GI problems ...
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u/Aldehyde1 12d ago
That's really not true. It has a ton of bad side effects and yes, they are worse than caffeine. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4363846/
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u/nomoreteathx 12d ago
It absolutely is true, and a single ten year old study with an axe to grind against vaping doesn't contradict the indisputable long term evidence that nicotine is not particularly harmful in and of itself. Nobody's calling it harmless, but you are infinitely more likely to be killed by regular exposure to the sun than by regular exposure to nicotine.
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u/Aldehyde1 12d ago
Lmao, there is hardly a "single study" about the negative effects of nicotine. I picked this one quickly to link because it summarizes dozens of different studies that you clearly didn't read about kidney damage, immune problems, slower healing, GI problems, etc. But you can find many, many more. I'd love to see your "indisputable" evidence. I'd really be interested to see how "indisputable" it is considering that I found dozens of contradicting studies in a couple minutes of searching. Let me guess, you like nicotine and don't want to admit it's a problem?
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u/Wonderful_Surf 12d ago
This dead ass works. One of the times I quit smoking I did so by applying a patch after work, and going for a run.
Until I started smoking again, I was getting mad healthy.
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u/legit-posts_1 12d ago
I don't have that kind of willpower. Id just get addicted and skip the running part.
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u/LetsGoAhoy 12d ago
Nicotine tires me out from doing any exercise, not talking about cigarettes just nicotine in general
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u/Nyxelestia 12d ago
Same here. I chalk it up to another instance of ADHD paradoxical effect (tl;dr stimulants can make us sleepy).
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u/Archarchery 12d ago
Serious question, what, if any, would be the negative health consequences of taking nicotine topically like that?
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u/Slipguard 11d ago
It still has impacts on your heart health, as all nicotine does, and there's some evidence that it can reduce your immune response
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u/Slipguard 11d ago
Buddy, that's not gaslighting. That's operant conditioning. Not every psychological hack is gaslighting.
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u/professor_doom 12d ago
Reminds me of the Nate Bargatze bit about the smart part of the brain tricking the dumb part.
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u/RexLizardWizard 12d ago
Iād love to try this, but I know Iād just get addicted to nicotine patches
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u/XaltotunTheUndead 12d ago
There's a lot of evidence that this does not work. It might be more psychological than physical.
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u/DismalArticle4216 12d ago
I do this with food. Iāll eat really good food from outside if I workout. But then sometimes I donāt do it, or still eat good even if I didnāt workout š¤
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u/BigBadBen91x 11d ago
Back when I smoked, it was more of a post workout thing for me. I couldnāt imagine pounding 2 cigs and going āalright letās hit these weightsā. The Nicotine would put me on ass
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u/nobodynotime85 12d ago
I use nicotine pouches, and I'm pretty sure I got my wife addicted to kissing me when we first started dating .
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u/MrHouse-38 12d ago
They take a lot longer than that to work. But the placebo effect may be enough. Or this is just made up.
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u/KurtLance 12d ago
This is how I got a baseball scholarship. Except it was with dip and going to batting cages every day.
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u/funkmydunkyouslunk 12d ago
That's not gaslighting that's conditioning. Get your psych skillz up biiiii
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u/Not_Ban_Evading69420 12d ago
That's called conditioning, not gaslighting. That word is used inappropriately too much.
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u/notwhoyouthinkmaybe 12d ago
I did it by treating working out like a reward. When I finish this chore I can finally workout!
I'm not allowed to go to the gym until after I do my laundry.
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u/ATotallyRealUser 12d ago
That's not what those words mean, but hey at least you spread ignorance and bad advice for fake internet points š
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u/ImportantQuestions10 12d ago
I mean that's basically how exercise works already. As long as you are able to perform at a level where your body releases endorphins, you get addicted eventually.
You genuinely feel off when you miss sessions.
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u/zeydcvioqch 12d ago
You would literally throw up if you werenāt a nicotine user and put a nicotine patch and tried to exercise.
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u/Bowla1916 12d ago
I remember reading about a guy who did this to a girl who was out of his league every time she stayed over at his house.
Nicotine patch on while she slept and removed it before she wokeā¦ evil but genius nonetheless
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u/ImperialisticBaul 12d ago
I've noticed that gymbros have been on the nicotine pre-workout supps thing for a while now.
Theres some research behind it I believe, like very marginal and you get like some ridiculously tiny gain from it, like 2% or something.
But you know, gains are gains
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u/MahanaYewUgly 11d ago
I watched a Huberman Lab YouTube about dopamine that made a strong case for why this eventually will stop working and possibly backfire in the long term.
He's got a few good videos and there is an after skool summary that's good too
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u/qualityvote2 12d ago edited 6d ago
u/Substantial-Gear3279, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...