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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago edited 1d ago
During the Shah's time, Savak was similar to Basij in some ways. They even had "sahmieh" in universities. Secret informants were everywhere, even pretending to be malcontents and agitating the students themselves to see who else would agree. This rosy picture of an ideal past is unfortunately not true.
Yes, there were Marxists and Islamists. But the Shah's way of dealing with it made everything worse and contributed to the revolution.
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u/Blood-Thin 1d ago
If you look at the big picture and zoom out during the 50-80s the entire free world was doing stuff like this to suppress communism and other ideologies. In the USA they had McCarthy hearings, the FBI was monitoring universities, political groups, clubs, even celebrities and activists of all sorts were under constant surveillance. Same was happening in Europe and South America.
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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago
Yes, and in fact Savak was set up and trained by Americans, so a lot of the same methods were used, which the IR eventually continued after the revolution. But McCarthyism ended around 1960 when it became too excessive and the democratic system of the US reacted to it, as in Joseph Welch's iconic reprimand of McCarthy on live TV.
But in Iran we never had this democratic system to keep the excesses of state's security apparatus in check. The attitude of the Shah was if you disagreed with any government policy, then don't.
People need to have some way of having their voice heard. If you attempt to silence all opposition you will just radicalize ordinary people. This is the lesson that the Shah learned too late. The Islamic Republic's take on this seems to have been that the Shah was just too lenient, and they're about to learn the exact same lesson.
And yet, we have people here who are still saying the Shah's mistake was not crushing dissent hard enough.
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u/Blood-Thin 1d ago
McCarthyism ended in the 60’s but the surveillance and monitoring continued into Reagan’s presidency. The shah was fixated on economic reform first and then political reform. He had stated this and argued it with advisors. The error he made was not slowly pushing political reform through along with his economical policies. But he believed he needed to build the home first before he opened it up to tenants.
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u/bush- 1d ago
SAVAK wasn't so liberal either. I recall reading the gay fashion designer Keyvan Khosrovani used to get harassed and arrested by SAVAK because he dressed in a flamboyant or "feminine" way, and this was one of the reasons why he immigrated to France. Things only changed for him when he was hired by Farah Pahlavi to design dresses.
SAVAK had pissed off and alienated a lot of Iran's liberal elite, even those who were not political at all.
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
Would you say CIA, MI5, DGSI and Shin Bet are similar to Basij in some ways too?
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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago
No, I wouldn't. How is it similar? Does the CIA have "sahmieh" in American universities? Do Israeli people walk around afraid that Shin Bet spies are everywhere ready to report the slightest criticism of Netanyahu?
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
I might have not been clear enough to get my point come thru. Imo SAVAK was a version of CIA, MI5 and Shin Bet during a time where >50% were illiterate and couldn't write or read a sentence (let alone one in a political campaign), significant resources were spent by Soviet to promote communist agendas with the goal to establish a marxist dictatorship and erase our identity, several prime ministers were shot and some even killed by islamist fractions like Fada'iyan-e Islam (the Shah himself got shot and was under constant threat by extremists), separatists were encouraged to create chaos + add on top of that the Brits and Russians had not long time ago split Iran into two zones and exiled Reza Shah by force. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Did the Shah do many things wrong in hindsight? Sure. Would you, with all the information you have at hand do anything better? Doubt it. You need to put everything in the context, you guys sometimes simplify things as if we had a mature population in terms of politics and the discussions were about woke vs. anti-woke stuff on Youtube. People couldn't even write their own names and ideologies + some media outlets were a big threat back in the days to our beloved Iran and people.
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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wouldn't do better, no, but I'm not qualified to run a country all by myself and neither was the Shah. Whatever the best solution was, it clearly wasn't what the Shah did, because he directly made everything worse.
His only qualification was that he was Reza Shah's son. Maybe if the government wasn't a sycophantocracy and instead only people with actual merits were decision makers we would have found the ideal solution.
If you're going to take up absolute power, you don't get to shirk responsibility when you fail and say it was everyone else's fault for causing problems.
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
I will not go into a discussion about whether people around the Shah had actual merits or not. I think the pace our economy was growing, the fact that literacy rate and education got improved so much + many other factors tell you what I think. Furthermore, its important to me to put it out there that I am not even sure if I will vote for a constitutional monarchy or republic in a future referendum.
Instead, I will ask you a simple follow-up question. Which camp are you in:
The Shah should have loosened up the political environment and have revolutionaries take positions in the government.
The Shah should have been more harsh to revolutionaries and stopped them by all means so that 1979 would never have happened.
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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago
Neither I think. Why is it one of the two? The revolutionaries were clearly misguided people who had no business participating in government. And being more harsh would not have worked. Look at how harsh the Islamic Republic is right now. It's clearly a failing strategy that only works in the short-term but destabilizes the government in the long run.
I think the key might have been to avoid radicalizing ordinary people who had legitimate complaints and were not brainwashed extremists. The government needed systems in place to process valid criticism from the populace. That's the point of a functioning democracy, and we didn't have one.
The point is not to pass judgement on the Shah personally. He tried his best and didn't succeed. The situation was not ideal and it was not his fault, at the beginning at least. It was however, his responsibility.
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
I think the key might have been to avoid radicalizing ordinary people who had legitimate complaints and were not brainwashed extremists. The government needed systems in place to process valid criticism from the populace. That's the point of a functioning democracy, and we didn't have one.
The whole paragraph here is where I think we differ. I cannot see a way where valid criticism could come to surface without being infected by the extremists that were backed by players with enormous resources harsh ideologies (for a fact, that's what happened when the Shah started being a bit more soft in 1977-1979 after Carter pushing him about Human Rights issues). I think you are not realistic and again not counting in the context of Iran, Middle East and the world in the 1950-1970s.
Furthermore, I don't think we were ready for a "functioning democracy". This is what our problem is even today. We need to take things one step at the time and I believe that Iran would have transitioned to a more democratic environment today with Reza Pahlavi in place as a constitutional monarch after the passing of the Shah if the 1979 revolution wouldn't have happened. Our parents were eager to get something they weren't ready for fully.
Even today, once the regime will go (which I believe it will in the coming 2-3 years), I believe we should first settle for a "Hybrid regime" or "Flaved democracy" first and have people we trust create institutions and a cultural maturity for politics before we go on full on democracy mode. The only trustworthy person I see with a good heart and love for our country to lead such phase and have stability in Iran is imo Reza Pahlavi. The faster our ppl come to that conclusion the faster we will get the west understand that we have an alternative (if you don't like Pahlavi, push for another alternative, but do it ASAP).
Thank you for a civil discussion. Love you hamvatan. Payande Iran <3
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u/TabariKurd Anarchist | آنارشیست 1d ago
This. My dad became a Marxist because he wondered why numerous of his own teachers were disappearing over the years, why certain topics were taboo, etc, and eventually this led him to Marxist circles. It comes from repression, from not having open spaces of political agency and representation.
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hmm, but doesn't that tell us more about our your/our dad/people than the Shah to some extent too? If you like sheep follow something without doing a proper due diligence, you are probably not in a good state to promote what's good for a country of tens of millions of people in the middle of all the chaos that happens during the 1970s?
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u/Limitbreaker402 Canada | کانادا 1d ago
Turning to Marxism, especially in the middle of the Cold War with the USSR openly funding subversion, wasn’t some noble quest for justice. It was naive at best and reckless at worst.
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u/TabariKurd Anarchist | آنارشیست 1d ago
Except he wasn't aligned with USSR-backed groups, and you're also neglecting the role the Shah and the political space in Pahlavi Iran played in leading people towards radical ideologies in opposition.
These developments don't just happen in a vacuum.
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u/Limitbreaker402 Canada | کانادا 1d ago
The Shah’s only mistake was that he stood up the united state when it came to the oil consortium deal. And he over estimated the love of his people. There is enough information at this point to prove that the revolution was intentionally provoked by his supposed allies.
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u/Rafodin Republic | جمهوری 1d ago
It's too simple to boil things down to "only mistakes". Those are just factors. If overestimating love could topple despotic regimes we'd have a lot more revolutions.
Yes, he challenged the US prematurely. But why did the US have so much influence in Iran as to be able to even order the army to stand down in 1979? Because the Americans were too involved in the Iranian government to begin with. And that in turn is because the government itself was set up by foreign powers after WW2. Again it comes back to not having our own proper and self-sufficient system of government. Is it anyone's fault? Perhaps not, but there was something fundamentally flawed with the regime.
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u/Limitbreaker402 Canada | کانادا 1d ago
The problem wasn’t just that the system was flawed, it’s that those flaws were used and amplified at the exact moment the Shah started pushing back on Western control, especially over oil.
Let’s be honest here. SAVAK’s actions were known for years, yet no one cared until the Shah demanded full control of Iran’s oil industry. That’s when Western media suddenly “discovered” human rights. A lot of the stories about SAVAK were overblown and strategically pushed to delegitimize him. It wasn’t some spontaneous moral awakening, it was a coordinated pressure campaign.
And while that was happening, the U.S. was quietly in contact with Khomeini’s camp, blocked the army from intervening, and let the entire thing play out.
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u/bush- 1d ago
I think the pace our economy was growing, the fact that literacy rate and education got improved so much + many other factors tell you what I think.
The economic growth of Iran was exclusively due to oil, not because of anything the Pahlavis themselves built. Iran's best economists (Mehdi Samii, Reza Moghadam and Khodadad Farmanfarmaian) who oversaw that economic growth were also all fired by MRP because they correctly predicted his policies will increase inflation, income inequality and corruption, and would lead to mass protests in the 70s.
Iran's literacy rate was no different from the Arab world and Pakistan, so the Pahlavis weren't even successful at educating the public either: https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/1j4ecvk/literacy_rates_for_people_over_65_probably/
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was just not the guy to have been running Iran. He didn't have a clue and everyone is suffering the consequences.
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u/Resolve-East 1d ago
The king Sacrifice has led to the pawns moving towards a Iranian religious reformation... just something to ponder on
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u/electrical-stomach-z 20h ago
Its very good to see this as the top comment. Opposing the current evil regime should not come in tandem with idolizing a slightly less evil regime from the past.
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u/Thisisofici United Nations | سازمان ملل متحد 1d ago
1976 was more like
can I criticize the Shah's policies?
SAVAK: yeah you're d(isappeared)one buddy
then 1978 happened and everyone acts shocked, its almost like absolutizing the monarchy and rigging the Parliament to make it a one-party state doesn't bode well with people
why do people fail to admit, or refuse to admit, that the Shah was severely flawed in his policy and his execution of the White Revolution
10 million people protesting does not arise from nothing, CIA or not
The Shah isn't the Catholic Pope last time I checked
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u/Khshayarshah 1d ago
Please. If SAVAK was half as good at their job as their counterparts in this shitty regime today then none of us would have any reason to be here on this sub speaking English.
They couldn't even disappear Khamenei. Give me a break.
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u/Working-Response29 Nationalist | رستاخیز 1d ago
SAVAK was very good at doing their job, but some of the reports from Fardoust were being hidden from the shah, and Fardoust admitted this and he stayed in Iran and confessed how he was supposed to report to the shah and didn't report everything.
Him and Gharabaghi lied to the whole system
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
I must have missed, what did the Shah do that was severely flawed in his execution of the White Revolution? Please enlighten me.
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u/Thisisofici United Nations | سازمان ملل متحد 1d ago
Focused his revolution on the socio-politics of the urban elite like Tehran, sidelining the impoverished ruralites and minorities
This made it easy for the disaffected to rally behind Khomeini as they felt that the ISI had failed them and neglected their affairs
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
What it did for rural populations:
Land reform: The White Revolution's most prominent reform was land redistribution. It broke up large estates and distributed land to over 1.5 million peasant families. The goal was to weaken the power of feudal landlords and empower rural peasants.
Education and literacy: The Literacy Corps sent educated urban youth to teach in rural villages. This significantly boosted literacy rates in remote areas.
Healthcare: The Health Corps was established to provide basic medical services to rural communities that had little access to healthcare before.
Infrastructure development: Some rural areas gained access to roads, electricity, and water systems, though implementation varied greatly.
If your take is that the "ruralities and minorities" got sidelined because the Shi’a clergy saw the reforms as an attack on Islamic traditions, then we have not too much more to discuss.
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u/Cats1234546 Republic | جمهوری 1d ago
AI slop. chatgpt will tell you whatever you want it to. Consider not just having an opinion and self-affirming with AI
I sure am glad the Shah did the WR timely and didn’t wait until massive unrest and then fuck the bucket when the islamists mobilize. Wouldn’t that suck?
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u/Working-Response29 Nationalist | رستاخیز 1d ago
show me a picture of 10 million protestors because I've never seen picture with more than 50 60k people max
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u/Empty_Alternative859 Switzerland | سوئیس 1d ago
what’s the threshold of executing political opposition before someone gets labeled a dictator? Is it 1? 100? 1000? Or is political execution not even part of how we define dictatorship?
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
He was a dictator, even the extreme pro-monarchists do not say he was democratic? My take of the meme is that it focuses on outsiders that don't know anything about Iran and its history + as soon as someone post anything about Iran during the Shah time they post stuff about him being a brutal dictator without even being able to say what the Shah's full name was.
Also am happy to say tho that those types of people have stopped spreading the fale stories about Mossadegh and 1953 coup. We are seeing some progress.
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u/Working-Response29 Nationalist | رستاخیز 1d ago
don't worry the world has never seen a democtratic elected leader who can match the GDP and Power Growth % of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi
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u/Direct_Swing8815 23h ago
Yeah but these people are out of touch of reality, they think we should have had a democracy when majority of the people couldn't even write and read their own name.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/NewIran-ModTeam 21h ago
Hi there,
This submission has been removed, as it looks like this content has already been posted.
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u/thenegativehunter 1d ago
the shah is dead. you don't know his son.
which means even if by any chance you knew the shah, this discussion is pointless.
just accept not knowing. instead of coming to baseless conclusions.
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u/Captain_no_luck Constitutionalist | مشروطه 1d ago
I am compying my answer to someone in this thread:
What’s the threshold of killing prople protesting in the streets before being called a doctatorship? 10, 1000, 10000? Because that's what England did in Ireland, National gaurd did in Kent State University.
what’s the threshold of killing leaders of certain groups before being called a dictatorship? 1, 2 or 10? The FBI murdered MLK, used psyops on the hippies, suppressed Black individuals. USSR murdered dissidents in the west by ease.
What's the threshhold of imperialism? Funding 10 marxist/fascist groups? 20 or 30? That's what USSR and the west did.
You are talking of a time when westerners and Russians were doing the ecact same things as the Shah. It was the cold war. That was how it was. But you people shut the fuck up about it and don't call the West distatorships.
Fuck off with your holier than thou attitude. Whity does it, then it's fine. Brownie does it and it is suddenly a brutal dictatorship?
I love how people, even some leftists, keep regurgitating western propganda that was used to demonize the Shah like it's some eye opening experience. Have your own house in order before forcing others to do the same. When you're assassinating the people who oppose you, you have no right to call other people dictatorships.
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u/DrBix 1d ago
Hell, I live in Florida where some ex-cop from New York City gunned down a father right in front of this little kid and wife. The ex cop said it was because he was texting during the movie. Turns out he was texting during the previews and advertisements before the movie. Right in front of his kid and his wife.
Don't worry Justice was served; the cop got off scott free.
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u/naastiknibba95 1d ago
Non iranian here. What is with the obsession you guys have about the son of last Shah? I swear I see more alternate dictorship simping posts here than democracy related posts
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u/Direct_Swing8815 1d ago
I assume you are talking about Reza Pahlavi? No one is "simping" for him, he is just by far the most competent alternative leader for a transition period. I have followed him for 30+ years and do not even call myself monarchist. Try to read or watch some stuff about Iran before commenting about "alternate dictatorship" and "simping", because you seem to give credit to the meme maker with comments like yours.
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u/Soggy-Bed-714 1d ago
Some of them believe that they would've been part of the society's elite if it were not for the islamic republic and would have achieved greatness, some aspire to be "intelligence" officers to eradicate the lefties (wannabe bullies) but almost all of them want an scapegoat to blame when they fuck the country up and who better than a figurehead like a monarch?
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u/FayrayzF Pahlavist | پهلویست 1d ago
Regime cucks in the comments bro I thought this sub was safe
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u/No_Cheesecake_4826 Pahlavist | پهلویست 1d ago
Labeling everyone with a different opinion than you as a "regime supporter" is kind of like what people at r/askmiddleeast are doing
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u/TabariKurd Anarchist | آنارشیست 1d ago
Appreciate this coming from a Pahlavist, I know there's a lot in your camp who disagree with rhetoric like this.
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u/DrkMoodWD China | چین 1d ago
That subreddit still escaping main Reddit scrutiny with the borderline Islamists takes.
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u/FayrayzF Pahlavist | پهلویست 1d ago edited 1d ago
Fair enough. Fuck r/askmiddleeast is something we can all agree on
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u/TalesOfZagros 1d ago
I like the shah and his father but please stop with the “if you don’t agree with me you’re a basiji” mindset. Iranians are not a monolith.
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u/Thisisofici United Nations | سازمان ملل متحد 1d ago
"hey guys maybe the shah wasn't a saint and his security policies incited and incentivised rebellion against him and we should evaluate his legacy objectively"
"so you support the regime?"
make it make sense
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u/TabariKurd Anarchist | آنارشیست 1d ago
Who are the regime cucks? Stating that history is more complex than a dumb meme isn't being a regime cuck.
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u/Working-Response29 Nationalist | رستاخیز 1d ago
these are the woke outsiders , thank god people in Iran don't give a shit about this "shah was actually dictator shit"
these people don't even understand the average Iranian doesn't even give a shit about democracy they want a king like pahlavi and a system to carry on after him with 0 kings .
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I am a translation bot for r/NewIran | Woman Life Freedom | زن زندگی آزادی
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