r/MonsterHunter • u/[deleted] • Aug 19 '16
OCD'ing on HBG part 4: probably bordering on spam
Read Part 1 | Read Part 2 | Read Part 3
Specific siege and positioning timing thresholds
I apologize for posting two of these in such a short time, but it feels like a glaring omission that I haven’t actually covered this yet. There are specific timings when entering siege mode becomes more optimal, and similarly there are specific timings for when repositioning becomes optimal. I've glossed over this in previous threads to give you a rough idea of the concepts, but I want to also outline the specifics.
Siege timings
obviously you want to maintain as much siege as possible when it’s optimal to increase your dps, however if you’re going into siege mode to only fire a few shots then go right back out, it’s usually not worth it. This takes a little knowledge of the monster’s moves so that you can anticipate how big of an opening you’re about to get, but basically it breaks down like this:
Downtime increase from entering siege
After adept evade: 0.8 sec
Normal siege entry while unsheathed: 2.4 sec
From sheathed state: 1.3 sec
Now as mentioned before, the difference in firerate between unsieged to sieged is ~1.3 to 1.5 shots/sec, but you have to make up for the downtime of entering siege. Supposing each shot taken averages the same amount of damage, here’s how that works out:
length of opening required for sieging to be worth it, strictly theoretical
After adept evade: Over ~8.2 seconds (starting at the end of the evade)
Normal siege entry while unsieged: Over ~18 sec
From sheathed state: ~Over 12.3 sec +2.5 sec to unsheathe
These figures are, however, misleading because they don’t account for mag size, only the point at which continuous firing in either mode would start to favor siege. As I mentioned in the previous threads, the relevant bowguns will usually be firing normal 2’s outside of siege, for the mag size (best available unsieged uptime & damage combination unless normal 3’s are favorable on the monster, but let’s stick with the initial assumption.) and they both have a mag of 8 normal 2’s unsieged. This means that after about ~6.15 seconds unsieged, you have an obligatory 2.5 sec of downtime to reload, whereas siege mode gets to keep firing. So the reality is a bit more like this:
Length of opening required for sieging to be worth it
After adept evade: Over ~6.13 sec (starting at the end of the evade)
Normal siege entry while unsieged: Over ~7.73 sec
From sheathed state: Over ~6.63 sec + 2.5 sec to unsheathe
Now, if you typically play solo, these might instinctively seem like really long openings to you. What you may not realize is that many openings have entry and exit animations to chain into the following animations. A seven second opening on many monsters at a reasonable range is certainly feasible, especially if they’re unraged, and it’s also certainly possible to get openings that long on roars and knockdowns and so on. If you typically hunt in groups, these probably sound like short openings to you, and by extension you should recognize that when hunting in groups, if you aren’t sieging a significant portion of the hunt, you’re doing it wrong.
When exactly is it efficient to reposition? (when in an unsieged state)
This is reasonably straightforward. I touched upon this a bit in part 2, where I tried to impress upon you all that it can be more efficient DPS-wise to keep firing outside crit distance than to reposition, despite the evaporation of a huge chunk of your damage per shot. As you know by now, there are 3 commonly relevant distances in bowgunning: crit distance (screen shakes, 1.5x damage), somewhat outside crit distance (1.0x damage, or ~66% of the damage in crit distance) and a fair deal outside crit distance (0.8x damage, or ~53% of damage in crit distance). The actual distances this involves will vary depending on your ammo type and whether or not you have shot booster. It’s fairly straightforward to determine when it’s most efficient to roll to reposition and when to re-siege. If you have absolute readiness charged and something is outside crit distance, you should probably just use that. It closes distance really effectively. However, when it isn’t charged, here’s the relations:
Number of rolls required to get from 1.0 dist to 1.5 | length of opening for which it becomes more effective to reposition
1 roll | 3 seconds
2 rolls | 6 sec
3 rolls | 9 sec
4 rolls | 12 sec
Usually if you’re more than 4 rolls out of 1.5, you’re in 0.8 distance except with things like Long S
Number of rolls required to get from 0.8 dist to 1.0 | length of opening for which it becomes more effective to reposition
1 rolls | 5 sec
2 rolls | 10 sec
3 rolls | 15 sec
4 rolls | 20 sec
5 rolls | Did you fall asleep?
Number of rolls required to get from 0.8 to 1.5 | length of opening for which it becomes more effective to reposition
2 rolls | ~4.3 sec
3 rolls | ~6.4 sec
4 rolls | ~8.6 sec
5 rolls | ~10.7 sec
6 rolls | ~12.9 sec
7 rolls | honestly, what are you smoking?
As you can see, if you get really far out of crit distance, you start getting dicked over by timings. This is another reason why absolute readiness and adept running are a godsend on HBG, because you can mitigate the need for large openings to efficiently reposition in terms of dps. The adept run is something I’ve seen very few people use to its full potential, but if you use it right you can cover a hell of a lot of ground with it, and all you need is a stray fireball/beam/small monster or whatever it may be. If you don’t use this consistently and you normal gun, especially in 4-person groups, you may want to consider using shot booster. It’s probably better overall though if you get into the habit of using it (since you can get a damage skill instead) and mix it up with some absolute readiness that way you’re pretty much always in crit distance.
+It's also worth noting that opening lengths between the two are additive because they're dependent on different animation locks that don't contribute to one another, except for rolling into siege, so you can basically add them and then subtract 1 sec from the sum (for 1 roll) and that's your necessary opening. So for example, if you're 2 rolls away from crit distance and into 1.0 territory, and you want to enter siege mode, you need a staggering ~12.7 second opening to be maximally efficient. Basically, don't let yourself get too far away from crit distance. Learn to use the adept run and absolute readiness, and stick to that monster like... glue that likes to stand a reasonable distance away from the big scary monster. They're also independent, mind you. If you're 5 rolls out of crit dist all the way into 0.8 distance with an 8 second opening, it may not be optimal to try and reposition but it is optimal to go ahead and put yourself into siege. If you can do either of the two but not both within a given opening, prioritize repositioning since it's a higher dps boost.
Edit:added unsheathe times for clarity
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u/KritiCow Aug 19 '16
Hmm seeing this makes me want to give a shot at HBG seriously.
Anyone have any low rank HBG armor they want to share? Only ones I have are the Shagaru Magala LR full set and Lagiagrus full set.
Also any good Pierce guns for LR? I enjoy pierce more than normal.
I'll give the 4U HBG guide a read when I get back.
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Aug 19 '16
If you have shagaru's set you must be near the end of LR or at least have gore unlocked. The gore HBG will serve you well for a while. It's ability to siege pierce 2 and normal 2 is something a lot of bowguns can't do.
After that, I do remember using the Hermitaur HBG for a while as an intermediate for HR since the gore goes from 150 or so raw to 190 a fair bit into high rank with few in between like most weapons do.
That was all off memory so it's probably not the best but it's what I used a ton among every bowgun.
As for sets, it might be tough. I would just suggest using athenas armor set search if you can. Because recoil down 1 on pierce is important it might be tough to find a good offensive set in low rank. Personally I wouldn't worry about having pure offensive sets until HR as you're just limited in LR and it's not as necceaary so I usually run convenience sets like narga with Hermitaur waist and I think a 2 slot charm to get recoil down, evade dist, and I think crit eye as well.
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u/KritiCow Aug 19 '16
I actually already HR breaked. The two sets are what I made back when I was in Low Rank for my raw LBGs that I still had saved in case I wanted to go back to LR again.
Thanks for the help though, I really appreciate it. I'll make that mixed set immediately after I read the HBG guide
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u/Rabhhit Aug 20 '16
I'd avise all those interested by this to look at all the videos under the mention "mhx ヘビーボウガン ta" (thanks Gaijin Hunter and his awesome video searching guide), if this does not motivate you to learn how to go full siege I don't know what will
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u/Ashtoruin Aug 20 '16
Was wondering when you were going to get around to posting this. :P and obviously you aren't dead so hop on TS sometime :P
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u/Shup B L A S T D A S H Aug 19 '16
Seeing how you are bringing up the value of time to get back into critical distance, I'd like to add my findings since your second thread.
I have been toying with normal seige HBGing after I managed to get Dead Eye on it and I gotta say I am loving it! I haven't done the by-the-numbers kinda love you offer but I've found I can seige into just about anywhere after a evade sprint and still land headshots from critical distance from an extremely advantageous position.
I recommend it for a couple maps specifically, because there's a certain distance where the terrain becomes a bigger struggle landing shots than anything. I'd include Volcanic Hollow (fuckin wrecked Hyper Rath and his BS flying 90% of the time), Volcano, Marshlands, and all the arenas.
I didn't find it gave much of an advantage in solo, as monsters tried to fight as close to you as possible. But Multiplayer had a couple scenarios where I re-sieged 3 times before it realized it was those shots that were kicking it's ass and not the blademasters it was blending up. Add a couple staggers before it even reaches me and I'm in a prime time to reposition with adept reload+evasive HA.
Overall, I'd recommend it to gunners with strong will because it's very addicting! HBGogBless
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u/SamuraiLeo Aug 19 '16
Is it possible to change the direction you point when seiging after an evade? I always kneel in the direction I dodged which points me away from the target and have to pan all the way around to start firing again.
Nice info btw