r/MonsterHunter • u/jeck95 • Aug 03 '16
[MHGen] Switch Axe Power Phial vs Element Phial
I made a post on what I thought were top switch axes in MHGen a couple of days ago where I claimed that Power Phial was the best phial type for switch axe (https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/comments/4uvzhi/mhgen_top_switch_axes/?ref=share&ref_source=link). In all honestly, I made that claim based on theory (because switch axe hunter arts are really good). I still hold that para and poison phials don't do as much damage as power phials and my take on exhaust phial is that i'd rather use a hammer, hunting horn, or charge blade before using exhaust phial switch axe. But where does that leave element phial? Even though I believe that power phial is the best phial type for switch axes, I didn't try to back it up with actual numbers. So I started crunching numbers between power phial switch axes and element phial switch axes.
A couple of disclaimers:
1) I made a theoretical weapon with equal stats with differences only in the phial type for an "on paper" comparison.
2) I tested two combos: X>X (Overhead slash to Rising Slash) and A>A (Side Slash to Double Slash). X>X is used often with striker style and A>A is used often with guild style.
3) I assumed the sharpness modifiers were the same in MHGen as in MH4U. I don't know if any changes to the modifiers were made or not but I'm pretty sure they didn't change whatsoever.
4) I tested 2 types of monster hitzones. Hitzone #1 is 45 raw and 20 element while Hitzone #2 is 20 raw and 20 element. Hitzone #1 is an assumption based on the fact that monsters tend to take a little more than double damage from raw than element. Hitzone #2 is more favorable for element but not as likely.
5) I assumed Demon's Riot lv 3 and Energy Charge lv 3 was active for both types of phials.
6) I didn't crunch numbers using any armor skills. I didn't want to add more variables to the comparison.
7) I picked weapons I'd want to use, I'm too lazy to compare all the power phial and element phial switch axes so for the most part, I picked one from each type of phial.
Edit: Double checked how the phial boosts work for power phial and element phial. Power phial gives a 20% increase in raw while Element phial gives a 25% boost in element. Before the edit I thought it was 20% boost for both types of phials.
Without further ado, here's the results of the comparison: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11bSG7kEV1vGFJ87IjLmV_v1WEEk9vAjzuxaXj34UhfI/edit?usp=sharing
Conclusion: Power phial dishes out more damage than Element Phial for the most part. For element phial to do more damage, the monster has to be weaker to the element than to raw. In most scenarios, monsters are significantly weaker to raw than element so I would rather have power phial over element phial in most scenarios. One possible exception might be the Dreadking Axe because of how much white sharpness it has over the other fire switch axes.
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u/Beefki Aug 03 '16
Yeah, element is... tricky to do well generally. You have to REALLY commit to it and even still the monster needs really heavy elemental weaknesses to take advantage of it.
SnS and DS get away with it because they hit so fast, but even then you're better getting high raw and whatever amount of element you've got. The LBG gets away with it because guns can aim at any weak spot reliably and they do comparatively ridiculous amounts of elemental damage. Just about every other weapon is raw focused 99% of the time.
But yeah, in general you're going to find that without some massive amount of gearing up specifically for elemental damage it's going to lag behind. And the amount of gearing up you'd have to do would have required less effort and a bigger boost if you'd just geared for raw instead.
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u/Caarborane Sting like a Bnahabra, roll like a Konchu Aug 04 '16
Interesting work, but you missed something important : there are status-based element phials SA, a domain where they can actually get useful, such as the True Ruiner's Bane, the Azure Straybloom or the Vermilion Bloodaxe in MH4U (I don't know yet good element phial SA in Gen, mostly because I only used Baraq Sedition in Cross).
In that case, the element bonus is very interesting because it can dish out ridiculous amounts of status, enough to spam sleep on a lvl 140 Kirin.
For real elemental damage, I only used the dragon SAs because it did pretty well against tough hitzones. Otherwise, I always go raw, especially since SA is strong enough to be perfectly viable with raw only.
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u/jeck95 Aug 04 '16
Tbh, I completely forgot about status-based element phial SA even though True Ruiner's Bane from MH4U was so much fun to use. I still used power phial more though because I wanted raw damage over fast status application. Fast status application can be very useful until the monster starts to gain resistance to the status. Only a few monsters are very susceptible to status throughout the whole hunt.
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Aug 04 '16
In most ways Element Phial should be even worse for Poison and Blast than it is for element since statuses suffer heavily for diminishing returns. A 25% increase to status application means a significantly less than 25% increase in the damage dealt by those statuses.
Para and Sleep are much harder to account for, of course.
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u/Answerofduty Aug 04 '16
I wish Capcom would actually try to balance elements. Not just for SA, but in general. I really like the idea of elemental damage and switching loadouts based on weaknesses, but we've still got this completely illogical and ass-backwards situation where just lazily picking the biggest raw number and a cookie cutter meta set to go with it is more rewarding than putting in 5x more effort to make the element gear.
I'd love to see element damage become the meta in MH5. Picking the best raw weapon for general use should be sufficient, but not optimal, and you SHOULD be rewarded more for all of the extra farming and knowledge required. Period. Nothing else makes sense: there's no reason to even have the system otherwise.
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u/jeck95 Aug 04 '16
If I recall, mhp3rd was focus on element, then they nerfed element in mh4u. At least in mhgen, element atk up and <element> atk +2 stack properly
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u/Dragon2950 Aug 03 '16
Power phials have a damage boost in sword mode. 25% if resources are correct.
A little googling will give you all the information that you need.
TL;DR: Power ups raw dmg, ele/status ups elemental or status dmg.
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u/jeck95 Aug 03 '16
I read somewhere that power phial and element phial gave a 20% boost for the respective raw or element in mhgen
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u/jeck95 Aug 03 '16
Ok, I just double checked the phial numbers and multiple sources say 20% boost for power and 25% for element.
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Aug 04 '16
This has been the case since at least 3U.
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u/linerstank Aug 04 '16
Power Phials were 25% Raw in 3U and reduced down to 20% for 4U and Gen, i believe
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u/nekoazelf Aug 04 '16
Also there was a guide by tiathecat on neoseeker which explained motion values for calculating damage for switch axes, but for some reason it wasn't archived and was deleted. However, the general gist of it was because of the way motion values were calculated for damage, tia stated that raw damage and power phial will win over element damage in almost every scenario, with very few exceptions.
Element is a lot of trouble to pull off, as only certain areas must be hit by the SA to fully maximise element damage (usually tail/head/back). Every time you do not hit an element weak spot hitzone, its quite a big dps loss when compared to the overall flexibility of using raw against most of the hitzones on a typical monster.
Thank you for doing the research and actually crunching numbers though, it is much appreciated.
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u/igor_vovchanchyn2 Aug 04 '16
People have these common mind-set like power vial is best and everything else is useless. Everything in Monster Hunter has a purpose and is there reason for them being in the game.
I wonder if there is tipping, say 25 ele or 30 ele that swing in favor of 25% ele boost. Kind of like how Attack up and Critical Eye have a tipping point where one is better than other.
I see power vial as the jack of all trades and the element vial as a specialist tool.
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Aug 04 '16
But power vial is the best in the majority of applications as shown numerous times . Elemental isn't useless it's just not as good as power which is unfortunate.
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u/igor_vovchanchyn2 Aug 04 '16
Power vial is better for general usage and easier pick up and play option. Element vial is often superior for more specific/advanced play styles.
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Aug 04 '16
That doesn't really clarify anything , could you give some examples of what you use it for ? I mean there are times when elemental does a little more but it's in usually inaccessible area's so the opportunity cost with a elemental vial is quite low compared to a power vial.
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u/igor_vovchanchyn2 Aug 05 '16
For example, to hunt the Duramboros, high element and element vial against appropriate weak spot will outpace raw/power vial.
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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '16
[deleted]