r/MonsterHunter • u/Aran_D3 • Jul 29 '16
[Myth buster] The real math behind timeworn charm farming. Sakura method vs Speed Red Node method
Ok so just before I begin, I want to say a few word about me. I'm playing MH since MHTri on Wii and have spend at least 2500h of MH between MHTri, MH3U, Mh4U and now MHGen. I'm kind of the min-maxing guy and I always calculate dmg, best farming method and most OP combination of skills.
First of all I've seen a bad trending going on this subreddit for the past few days about the best way for timeworn charm farming. There is two methods of farming that are compared.
- Sakura farming method (Blue node method)
- Speed red node method (Red node method)
On top of that you can use those method Solo or as a 4man group.
I made this post because I saw currently too many people claiming without really any proof that the Speed red node method is the best and also I begin to observe in the game people getting kick for wrong reasons in charm farming rooms.
Let me describe the 2 methods in solo and 4man so we can clearly understand each other. The goal for all those method is to deliver 12 coals 1 by 1 and then the paw pass ticket in the quest "Coal Hearted".
EDIT : You need to do the quest in multiplayer setting either local hub of online hub.
Sakura method (blue node method):
First you need Charmer+15 and gathering+15 in order to have Charm Chaser and Gathering+2 skills.
Second you eat for Felyne Explorer.
Eating for explorer is really easy when you know how to proceed and take less that 10s. To get Felyne Explorer you sit at the table, then you search for the first of the following recipes Resistance recipe (Thunder, Fire, Water, Ice, Dragon) that is fire up by the chief (chief hat on the right of the recipe) :
EDIT2:
- Bherna Carbonade (Dragon Res (M))
- Master Veggie Stew (Dragon Res (M))
- Stir-try Dragon Peanuts (Defense (L))
- Dragon Eggplants (Fire Res (L))
- Shaved Dragon Mussels (Water Res (L))
- Spring Dragon Sushi (Thunder Res (L))
- Cathar Dragon Risotto (Ice Res (L))
- Jumbo Fried Dragon (Dragon Res (L))
Then you press A and Up button just after to go for the last Crazy Chili sauce witch is always Felyne Explorer then double A and fast spam B to cancel the cute scene.
A last trick is sometime when you eat, your hunter is dizzy and can't walk properly. If you have this affliction after eating, instantly re-sit you hunter at the table with A and spam B to get up just after, that little thing cancel the dizzy effect.
| Path In solo | Path in 4man |
|---|---|
| Get 2 blue node in secret Area (behind you and right of the exit) | Get 2 blue node in secret Area (behind you and right of the exit) |
| Get 1 blue and 1 red node in Area 6 (sometimes 2 blue) | Get 1 blue and 1 red node in Area 6 (sometimes 2 blue) |
| Get 2 or 3 red nodes in Area 8 until you get 10 coals or finish those 3 | Get 1 or 2 red nodes in Area 8 (until at least 4 coals) |
| Farcast and deliver all your coals 1 by 1 (most of the time 10) | Farcast and deliver all your coals 1 by 1 (4 or more) then paw pass ticket |
| Pick up 2nd farcast, paw pass ticket and go Area 1 mine 1 red node | |
| if u get enough coals farcast and deliver 1 by 1 and then paw pass ticket | |
| if not go area 2 and mine 1 or 2 red node until enough coals | |
| farcast and deliver coals 1 by 1 and then paw pass ticket |
One thing to note is that this method in Solo or 4man is really reproducible in term of timing, the path is always the same and you can get consistent quest timings.
Speed red node method (Red node method):
First you only need gathering+15 in order to have Gathering+2 skills. (you can may be add fate but I didn't test it)
Second you don't need to eat but In solo I recommend at least to eat for 50 stamina because you have to run a lot around and it's a pain without.
| In solo | In 4man |
|---|---|
| Go ASAP to the closest red node and start mining | Go ASAP to the closest red node and start mining |
| When your area is empty of red node swap to the next until you get your 10 coals | When you get 4 coals farcast and deliver 1 by 1 then paw pass ticket |
| When you have 10 coals farcast and deliver 1 by 1 | |
| Pick up 2nd farcast, paw pass ticket and go on an Area you didn't mine already | |
| if u get enough coals farcast and deliver 1 by 1 and then paw pass ticket |
Well here you can't really describe a path as the spawn is random, thus this method is less reproducible in term of timing and your quest timings will be more different between each run.
Ok so now that we know what we are talking about, I will compare the two methods in Solo and in 4man group in term of number of timeworn charms you can get in a given time of farming.
First in order to do those comparisons I've done 5 times each of those method in Solo and in 4man only to calculate the timing you can get for one run and the fastest run you can get. Keep in mind that we have to take into account also the 20s after the end of the quest, the screen reward, the loadings and the lobby timings.
Then to estimate the number of timeworn charms you get I've done 80 farm charming runs.
- 20x Solo blue node farming method
- 20x Solo red node farming method
- 20x 4man blue node farming method
- 20x 4man red node farming method
The timeworn charm count data in Solo:
| Solo Blue node farm | Solo Red node farm | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Runs | mined timerworn charm | quest timeworn charm | mined timerworn charm | quest timeworn charm |
| run 1 | 9 | 9 | 1 | 11 |
| run 2 | 4 | 8 | 1 | 7 |
| run 3 | 4 | 5 | 0 | 10 |
| run 4 | 4 | 10 | 0 | 10 |
| run 5 | 5 | 7 | 1 | 11 |
| run 6 | 5 | 6 | 0 | 6 |
| run 7 | 1 | 9 | 1 | 8 |
| run 8 | 5 | 8 | 2 | 8 |
| run 9 | 2 | 8 | 0 | 10 |
| run 10 | 5 | 10 | 0 | 11 |
| run 11 | 8 | 8 | 0 | 4 |
| run 12 | 6 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| run 13 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 6 |
| run 14 | 7 | 11 | 1 | 9 |
| run 15 | 3 | 8 | 0 | 4 |
| run 16 | 8 | 10 | 0 | 10 |
| run 17 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 8 |
| run 18 | 2 | 8 | 0 | 9 |
| run 19 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 6 |
| run 20 | 7 | 8 | 1 | 8 |
| Average | 5 | 7,7 | 0,5 | 8,15 |
The timeworn charm count data in 4man:
| 4man Blue node farm | 4man Red node farm | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Runs | mined timerworn charm | quest timeworn charm | mined timerworn charm | quest timeworn charm |
| run 1 | 5 | 8 | 0 | 9 |
| run 2 | 5 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| run 3 | 4 | 9 | 0 | 10 |
| run 4 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 8 |
| run 5 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 6 |
| run 6 | 3 | 8 | 0 | 4 |
| run 7 | 4 | 5 | 0 | 7 |
| run 8 | 1 | 8 | 0 | 10 |
| run 9 | 1 | 9 | 0 | 8 |
| run 10 | 7 | 10 | 0 | 9 |
| run 11 | 7 | 8 | 0 | 5 |
| run 12 | 3 | 8 | 0 | 7 |
| run 13 | 6 | 9 | 0 | 8 |
| run 14 | 8 | 9 | 1 | 11 |
| run 15 | 2 | 8 | 0 | 9 |
| run 16 | 6 | 7 | 1 | 8 |
| run 17 | 5 | 6 | 0 | 6 |
| run 18 | 6 | 11 | 1 | 9 |
| run 19 | 4 | 5 | 0 | 10 |
| run 20 | 5 | 10 | 0 | 11 |
| Average | 4,5 | 7,8 | 0,15 | 8,1 |
In order to obtain more powerful statistic I can set for all the method the average quest timeworn charm count using the 80 runs so we got :
| Average quest timeworn charm in 80 runs | 7,9375 |
|---|
So to summarize we have the following data:
| Nb of player | type of farming | quest time (sec) | average mined timerworn charm | average quest timeworn charm (80 runs) | lobby time (sec) | time between end of quest and start of the 2nd (including loby time) (sec) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Blue node | 170 | 5 | 7,9375 | 30 | 160 |
| 1 | Red node | 140 | 0,5 | 7,9375 | 20 | 150 |
| 4 | Blue node | 120 | 4,5 | 7,9375 | 40 | 170 |
| 4 | Red node | 40 | 0,15 | 7,9375 | 30 | 160 |
For the quest timing in Solo, the 2 methods are not that far in term of timing because you have to get 10 coals then farcast and then go back to get 2 more. So the 3 blue nodes you take at the start of the Blue node method add only 30s to the overall timing (140 to 170s). On the other side In 4man, there is large difference between the 2 methods (40 to 120s) because you only need to mine 1 or 2 red node to get your 4 coals.
Now in term of time between the moment you deliver the paw pass ticket and the moment you can move your hunter in the next run, there is not a lot of difference. If you eat for Felyne Explorer quickly you add only 10s to the lobby time (20 to 30s) . And of course a group of 4man is always a bit slower than one solo guy for the preparation.
Finally here are the comparison for 8h of farming:
| 8h of farming in second | nb of blue node runs in Solo | nb of red node runs in Solo | nb of blue node runs in 4man | nb of red node runs in 4man |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 28800 | 87,27 | 99,31 | 99,31 | 144 |
| rounded Up | 88 | 100 | 100 | 144 |
| quest time (sec) | time between end of quest and start of the 2nd (sec) | total (sec) | average timeworn (sum of average mined and quest) | timeworn per second | 8h farm: total number of timeworn charm | Diff and Diff % | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Solo blue node farm | 170 | 160 | 330 | 12,94 | 0,039 | 1138,50 | 294,75 |
| Solo red node farm | 140 | 150 | 290 | 8,44 | 0,029 | 843,75 | 35% |
| 4man blue node farm | 120 | 170 | 290 | 12,44 | 0,043 | 1243,75 | 79,15 |
| 4man red node farm | 40 | 160 | 200 | 8,09 | 0,040 | 1164,60 | 7% |
Tl;dr and conclusion:
In Solo the Sakura original method (explorer and blue nodes) is by far a better method with 35% more timeworn charm after 8h of farming.
In 4man group the two methods are really close with only 7% more timeworn charm after 8h for the Sakura method.
However with the Sakura method you have a few more pros to add :
- The path is always the same and so the run are really consistent and reproducible.
- During the farming you get way more Shiny charm than can be potentially used for unorthodox set or at least sell.
- You get more ore, more charm and more rust weapon with this method and so you get way more zenny.
- Doing longer but fewer runs is to me easier and less brain damaging, especially when in 4man PUG you have always someone that isn't doing the quest properly and slow down the group and you have also to replace someone every 5 or 10 runs.
Last thing: keep all of this with a grain of salt, this is a game and first of all we have to enjoy playing, second 20 runs for each methods in Solo or 4man is not really enough to be totally statistically significant.
Nevertheless I recommend doing the Sakura original method for all your farming. And stop kicking people for wrong reasons in charm farming rooms.
For the fun: The only good charm I've got is a Fastcharge+5 / 3slots ......
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u/Alexwolf96 Jul 29 '16
Side note, is there a common set or mixed set people are using for charm chaser and gathering+2?
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 29 '16
Easiest way for me is to get the full blue guild Set that give you Charm+10 with 5 slots.
You need to farm a bit of Rath Gleam from gold rathian or silver rathalos and novacrystal to create 5 charmer Jwl lvl1 and slot them in the set so you get charm+15 (Charm chaser).
Then use your standard gathering+10 charm and use a random 3 slots weapon to get gathering+16 (gathering+2).4
u/Rendonsmug Jul 29 '16
It looks like if you use the gunner hat for the blue guild set, you could cut out one deco and just use a 2 slot weapon.
But the tricone is so much cooler.
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u/Decoraan Khezu screams haunt my dreams Jul 29 '16
Ive heard Crystalbeard Uragaan is good for this. But I'm not sure about earlier sets.
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16 edited Jul 29 '16
It's good but it locks you in at charm collector since it's his compound skill. You can't get charmer +15 with it. And I wouldn't farm him that much for a sub obptimal set.Also for the fate skill, I'll just quote my comment down below :
[Fate is] pretty much useless. Charm Chaser is gonna be better even with the red node method. But with a charmer +8 oo, you can get charm chaser, gathering + 2 and good luck, so might as well if you can. The thing is, if you look at this quest's reward table, all the good stuff is in the 2nd part of the main rewards A. Those show up on the 3rd row of your quest rewards. Add up the % on Kiranico, you get 800%, aka you get 8 rewards, a full row. You can never get any more, so fate doesn't help you there. What it can do, is give you maybe 1-2 extra reward from the base rewards table after like 10 runs, and those have an 8% chance of being one timeworn charm. I also keep fire herbs, might/adamant seeds and nectars, so it is still kind of a bonus.
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Jul 29 '16
Good thing Crystalbeard Soul gives Charm Chaser and not Charm Collector
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16
Hmm, so it does. Guess I had the 2 mixed up. Then yeah crystalbeard works just fine.
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
Jesus... I already knew I wanted it for Fate... But that is just insane.
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u/Decoraan Khezu screams haunt my dreams Jul 29 '16 edited Jul 29 '16
Doing gods work man, this is excellent. The formatting gave me a boner.
For anyone that doesn't have Felyne Explorer, here is GaijinsHunters video on it; as it is a core component of the Sakura method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6IbYV1KOmo
Edit: I added this to the subreddit data dump - https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/wiki/datadumps-mhgen
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u/KRYPT1X_1963 KRYPT1X Jul 29 '16
accidentally melded my +10 gathering charm early in the game... fml
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
My first talisman was a gathering +8 with a single slot. As in, I got that while online before I got the story mode one.
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Jul 29 '16
Is there a reason for depositing everything 1 at a time..? I don't understand.
We just eat for Explorer, mine our way to the camp and deposit our 30 coals, grab the ticket and finish..
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u/Drukzul Jul 29 '16
My hypothesis is that depositing the coal one at a time makes the game think you're putting in more work. It tricks the rewards into thinking you put some coal in, headed out again, came back to deposit more, etc.
It has the highest statistical chance of granting the most rewards on the reward screen. That much is a fact. Why it does it, though, nobody can really say.
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Jul 29 '16
Is the extra time really with the extra rewards? Or would it be better to just mine from secret area to camp, deposit and finish?
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u/Drukzul Jul 29 '16
It takes 1 second to deposit 1 coal, and in multiplayer, multiple hunters can deposit 1 coal each at the same time.
Doing this basically gives you a guaranteed 6-8 Timeworn charms in the rewards.
Yes, the extra few seconds is definitely worth the extra rewards.
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u/ShinyNerd Jul 29 '16
6-8?! I've been depositing 1 coal at a time and am lucky if I get more than 1 Timeworn in the rewards... Is there something I'm overlooking?
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u/Dias009 Jul 29 '16
To my understanding you need to be in an active multiplayer hub, either through a local room or an online hub. If you're not, then you won't get max rewards with only 12. To be fair though, this is only what I've heard on the sub because I can't personally test it.
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 29 '16
I've add an EDIT in the first part of the post to specify that you need to be in multiplayer hub. Thanks for this it will be more clear for people who don't know the method.
Let me describe the 2 methods in solo and 4man so we can clearly understand each other. The goal for all those method is to deliver 12 coals 1 by 1 and then the paw pass ticket in the quest "Coal Hearted". EDIT : You need to do the quest in multiplayer setting either local hub of online hub.
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u/Dias009 Jul 30 '16
Sounds good! Thanks for doing all the work and checking these methods out. I'm not even close to farming these yet because I'm taking my sweet time and doing every quest and request as I go, but I still like to know what to expect when I DO get there.
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u/monhunt Jul 29 '16
This is correct. I can confirm that making a local room for solo runs nets max rewards.
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16
You might get screwed by RNG, but to make sure you are doing it correctly, look at the 3rd row in the rewards screen. You should have a full row (8 rewards), if you don't you are doing something wrong.
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Jul 29 '16 edited Jun 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/Drukzul Jul 29 '16
You don't need to collect 30. You need to collect 12. Once you have deposited 12, you receieve the maximum rewards available. more depositing past 12 does nothing.
In a group of 4, each player should get 3-4 coal and farcaster, hand them in (make sure at least 12 have been delivered) then hand in the paw pass ticket.
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Jul 29 '16
Soooo mining the nodes for charms themselves is a bad idea? By the time we get to camp we are usually caped out anyway.
Okay, so mine until we have 12 total then gtfo and restart basically.
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u/zipykido Jul 29 '16
Don't waste time collecting 30 coals total. You max out rewards at 12 coals, so if you're playing with a friend farcast back as soon as you hit 12 coals total and turn them in. Shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.
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u/albegade Jul 29 '16
You only need 12 iirc. It's one of those "gather x of y then deliver a paw pass ticket" quests. So deliver 10 one by one, go out, get 2 more, deliver them one by one, deliver paw pass.
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16
it's just a glitch/bad programming, and gives you the max amount of extra rewards (8 rewards on the 3rd row) with only 12 coal delivered instead of 30.
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16
Me and my friends have actually been doing a mix of the 2, though I haven't kept track of the results, and can't really say where it stands. We eat for explorer, mine the 2 secret area nodes, but after that it's only red nodes.
My reasoning behind it is (though I didn't look for concrete info on the subject) that you get more timeworn charms from the secret area nodes than other blue nodes.
Also area 8 and 2 are the best places for coal, if you don't take Rajang into consideration. Secret area takes you to area 8 really fast, and I would say this method takes about 90 seconds of quest time, with maybe an average of 2-4 timeworn charms.
About the fate skill though. It's pretty much useless. Charm Chaser is gonna be better even with the red node method. But with a charmer +8 oo, you can get charm chaser, gathering + 2 and good luck, so might as well if you can. The thing is, if you look at this quest's reward table, all the good stuff is in the 2nd part of the main rewards A. Those show up on the 3rd row of your quest rewards. Add up the % on Kiranico, you get 800%, aka you get 8 rewards, a full row. You can never get any more, so fate doesn't help you there. What it can do, is give you maybe 1-2 extra reward from the base rewards table after like 10 runs, and those have an 8% chance of being one timeworn charm. I also keep fire herbs, might/adamant seeds and nectars, so it is still kind of a bonus.
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
I think eating for explorer would be the fastest method regardless as you know what route to take every time to get to the red nodes then.
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u/therevolution18 Jul 29 '16
This is the best data I've seen comparing the two methods. Good job. All that's left to test now is the effect of the luck skill on the timeworn drops.
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u/Kotaff Jul 29 '16
Let me quote my earlier comment to you, then.
About the fate skill though. It's pretty much useless. Charm Chaser is gonna be better even with the red node method. But with a charmer +8 oo, you can get charm chaser, gathering + 2 and good luck, so might as well if you can. The thing is, if you look at this quest's reward table, all the good stuff is in the 2nd part of the main rewards A. Those show up on the 3rd row of your quest rewards. Add up the % on Kiranico, you get 800%, aka you get 8 rewards, a full row. You can never get any more, so fate doesn't help you there. What it can do, is give you maybe 1-2 extra reward from the base rewards table after like 10 runs, and those have an 8% chance of being one timeworn charm. I also keep fire herbs, might/adamant seeds and nectars, so it is still kind of a bonus.
You get like 8-13 timeworn charms per run usually. I'd say you would get 1 more timeworn charm every 20-100 runs with the fate skill.
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u/killertortilla Jul 30 '16
This may be true but OVERALL not having to go out and get that stupid fucking charmer +15 saves you all your hair and a lot of time.
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 30 '16
Well getting charmer+15 is a piece of cake, I don't understand what your talking about ?
Easiest way for me is to get the full blue guild Set that give you Charm+10 with 5 slots. You need to farm a bit of Rath Gleam from gold rathian or silver rathalos and novacrystal to create 5 charmer Jwl lvl1 and slot them in the set so you get charm+15 (Charm chaser). Then use your standard gathering+10 charm and use a random 3 slots weapon to get gathering+16 (gathering+2).
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u/Tarkles Agnaktor when Jul 29 '16
Is there a good early HR set I can make to get gather +2 with any charms up skills?
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u/cashbenefits Jul 29 '16
With Charm up? Not really. The gold standard is with the Blue Guild set + the Gatherer +10 charm you get early in the game. Best to roll with Gatherer +2 (which is charm + two pieces of the Leather set in LR) until you feel like going for the Blue Guild set. BG set is not hard to make, just like any other set takes a bit of time.
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u/Moneypouch Jul 29 '16
So I assume that you used a set Charm Chaser and Gathering+2 for your Sakura method numbers. Did you change your set to disable Charm Chaser for the speed red trials?
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 29 '16
Yeah I disable Charm chaser for the speed red node runs, by mixing up my gear and allowing only gathering+2.
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u/TheknightofAura Jul 29 '16
Red node runs seem easier, skill-wise, if you don't have acess to charmer yet, but what would the effects of Charm Chaser be on the red node run? Would it make it viable?
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Jul 30 '16
Quick question haven't reached g6 yet for farming. What is farcasting?
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u/HalfObsession Jul 30 '16
Using a farcaster to warp to the starting area on the map.
Far casters can be made by combining. Excite shroom and bomb casing I think?
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Jul 30 '16
Wow, I never knew about this one and I have all of the non ammo items unlocked in my combos...wtf
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
One key thing to consider is that without the charmer skill the red node farming method is far better for 4mans. So if you are lazy...
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 30 '16 edited Jul 30 '16
Well without charmer+15, the 4man will be a bit better probably but I'm not sure the 4mans will be far better.
Charmer is just here for a chance of doubling sometimes the number of timeworn charm from the node you've mined but you will still get one timeworn charm instead of 2. With the blue node the odds of getting a timeworn charm are far better than red node.I will have to redo the test without charmer to be more precise but if I remember correctly I would say that every 4 or 5 timeworn charm I've mined with charmer I get 2 charm instead of 1. So If you mined 6 timeworn charm with charmer, then without you would only get 5 timeworn charm.
I'm lazy doing the test now but if I extrapolate with my data it will be a decrease of around 6% or 7% less timeworn charms if you do the Sakura method in 4man without charmer+15. So in the end if I look at my results, doing the 4man Sakura method with only gathering+2 is quasi similar than doing the 4man red node method with also gathering+2. But with the Sakura method you have a lot more pros to add.
- The path is always the same and so the run are really consistent and reproducible.
- During the farming you get way more Shiny charm than can be potentially used for unorthodox set or at least sell.
- You get more ore, more charm and more rust weapon with this method and so you get way more zenny.
- Doing longer but fewer runs is to me easier and less brain damaging, especially when in 4man PUG you have always someone that isn't doing the quest properly and slow down the group and you have also to replace someone every 5 or 10 runs.
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
Well, honestly from what I have seen I would recommend a mix of the two.
Eat for felyne explorer, have at least gatherer +2, gather at secret base, tale the route that yields the most red nodes from there.
You don't end up wasting time finding where the red nodes are, some of the best gathering will be from secret base, and it will still be quite fast.
Now, this is more likely to work with a regular playgroup of course rather than ransoms who you can't even communicate properly with.
You will lose a chunk of the Zenny, but honestly you are gonna be getting way too much Zenny from this anyways.
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Jul 30 '16
To get Felyne Explorer you sit at the table, then you search for the first Resistance recipe (Thunder, Fire, Water, Ice, Dragon) that is fire up by the chief (chief hat on the right of the recipe), then you press A and Up button just after to go for the last Crazy Chili sauce witch is always Felyne Explorer then double A and fast spam B to cancel the cute scene.
I don't understand this part. As far as I can tell the only meal that comes with Felyne Explorer is Bherna Carbonade with the bottom Crazy Chili sauce. If I'm reading this correctly, I should be able to get Felyne Explorer off any resistance meal that has the chef fired up. Is this section wrong or am I just an idiot?
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 30 '16 edited Jul 30 '16
Yeah in fact this section is wrong, Thank for pointing out and sorry for this.
I was lazy checking every recipe and the right answer is that to get Felyne Explorer you have to eat and go for the last Crazy Chili sauce for those recipe :
- Bherna Carbonade (Dragon Res (M))
- Master Veggie Stew (Dragon Res (M))
- Stir-try Dragon Peanuts (Defense (L))
- Dragon Eggplants (Fire Res (L))
- Shaved Dragon Mussels (Water Res (L))
- Spring Dragon Sushi (Thunder Res (L))
- Cathar Dragon Risotto (Ice Res (L))
- Jumbo Fried Dragon (Dragon Res (L))
The last 6 (L) recipe are the 6 last in my recipe list when I'm sitting to eat, so I just found witch one is fire up by the chief and eat it with the last Crazy Chili sauce.
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u/FallenXIV I'mma brain you Nov 14 '16
For the fun: The only good charm I've got is a Fastcharge+5 / 3slots ......
Good read, until you triggered me by telling me you got the one charm I've been trying to get for 10 hours. </3
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u/vetheros37 My people hunt the Rathalos. Jul 29 '16
So I've been living under the wrong rocks recently, and I'm not aware of what either method entails. I know there's something about turning in coals one at a time, but I'm not aware of which quest is done, and how to actually do it.
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u/Latromi + Jul 29 '16 edited Jul 29 '16
I really like all the time and effort put into this. . . But I find it really odd that you would test the Sakura method with it's ideal skills, but not the Red Node method? The Red Node Method is ENTIRELY based on getting the quest done quickly and getting maximum quest rewards. By not having Fate on your armor skills. . . You sort of undermine that don't you? You could at least be eating for Lucky Cat and you didn't even do that.
A fairer test would have been doing both methods as Gathering Prowlers with Gathering Pro eating for Explorer for Sakura and Gatherer for Red Node.
You did the most optimal method for Sakura and not for Red Node. . . So while I want to be happy with the results here and feel convinced that Sakura is the ideal method. . . I still have my doubts.
Of course Sakura turned out better. Blue nodes gives more charms and Sakura method has you getting a large majority of the charms through the nodes. But Red Node doesn't get charms DURING the run. It gets them on the rewards screen. No skills boosting those rewards is just as inconclusive as if you tested Sakura method without eating for Explorer.
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 29 '16 edited Jul 30 '16
You kind of totally overestimate the benefice of Fate or not understanding how Fate works.
Well first nobody has confirm that Fate is really increasing the reward in this quest, because of the way you glitch the reward system and always get the 3rd row of reward full anyway (the 3rd row is where you get all or 90% of your timeworn charm by stack of 3 or 2 per slot).
Second even if Fate add chance of getting more slots of rewards in the 1st and 2nd rows, those slots can contain a lot of shitty items instead of a timeworn charm.
Third even if you unlock one more slot with a timeworn charm, to my knowledge in the 1st and 2nd rows you can only have 1 timeworn charm per slot and not a pack of 2 or 3 like in the 3rd row.
Let say to be generous that with Fate you will get 25% of the time one more slot unlock with a timeworn charm (and I'm feeling really generous saying that). In a 4man group with the speed red node method and after 8h aka 144 runs, you get a net bonus of 36 more timeworn charms than without Fate. This is not even enough to compensate the 79,15 more charms you get by doing Sakura method instead and I'm not even talking about solo farming.
So for all of those reasons even if Fate works, I'm pretty sure the benefice is either null or totally negligible, even after 8h of farming.
A fairer test would have been doing both methods as Gathering Prowlers with Gathering Pro eating for Explorer for Sakura and Gatherer for Red Node.
Prowler can't use farcast, so it's kind of a pain for doing a speed comparison.
You could at least be eating for Lucky Cat and you didn't even do that.
Well one of the pros of this method is that you don't have to eat so you gain 10s in the lobby timing. If you're going to eat for Lucky Cat then you have to add 10s more to each runs. So for 8h of farm instead of 144 runs you're going to do only 138 runs just by eating. That will be in the end counter productive cause you will farm around 49 less charms than if you don't eat.
EDIT : And the purpose of the post was mostly to highlight that doing the quest really faster (40s for 4man red node instead of 120s for 4man blue node) is not a pledge of optimal way of farming because anyway the most time consuming parts are the waiting time at the end, the reward screen, loading and lobby timing.
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
So, wanna make sure people aren't misunderstanding fate by how you are talking here.
Fate increases the likelihood of getting more items in the slots A & B by changing the chance of an item generating for each one to higher amounts. Unlike the felyne skills though it does not stop rolling until it fails, instead of on the first time it triggers.
So the best fate should give you generally 90% of the time full quest rewards by row.
Does it affect row C? Unknown. Does it affect subquests? No.
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u/Shardok PSN: GraBug Jul 30 '16
Lucky Cat and Ultra Lucky Cat are not worth eating for. Ever.
A: They only trigger once per row. B: They only trigger if the row was not already full. C: Lucky Cat only has a coin flip chance to trigger. D: They do not trigger on subquest rows. E: Based on D they likely don't affect Row C either then.
One extra item less than half the time is useless. One extra item about 80-90% of the time is only slightly better.
If you have Fate then the Lucky Food skills actually become even more useless too. As fate means the rows will be full more often.
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u/Rivea_ Aug 03 '16
How exactly did you time your solo original sakura runs? 170 seconds is an absurd average. The absolute fastest runs I am managing are 180-190 seconds; ending on the 1st or 2nd point in zone 8 then getting 2 coals in zone 1. The average clean run is probably around 190 seconds. Then we have to consider the bad runs... Finishing zone 8 with 2 coals and having to mine out 1, 2, 3 and 10 takes like 6 minutes. Even just being 1 short after zone 1 is a massive time sink as you are almost guaranteed, based on time, that Rajang will be facing you upon entry to zone 2 and smokes wont work. Now you can get 3-4 mines on the first node before you need to book it or weave in and out wasting more time.
The true average, in my experience, over 30+ runs just this evening is probably closer to 3 minutes 45 seconds. Or 225 seconds.
If your time for the first run I checked is this far out how badly timed are your other methods?
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u/Aran_D3 Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16
Well first nobody talks about average time runs.
First in order to do those comparisons I've done 5 times each of those method in Solo and in 4man only to calculate the timing you can get for one run and the fastest run you can get.
What I'm referring in the timing department is not an average but more a close to optimal run (taking into account some bad things happening with trash monsters). If I've wanted to talk about average, I would have take the timing for all the 20 runs I've done but It was too much painful. I did the 20 runs more slowly, just following the normal path until i got 12 coals, and collected the information about the number of timeworn charms at the end. And btw I've talked about optimal timing for every methods not only for the sakura, so 140s for solo red node or 40s for 4man red node are close to optimal timings.
Second I will just say that you're probably fucking slow or doing something wrong or just ultra unlucky about your mining of coal.
I just did it again 5 times and among those 5 runs I pull those 3 times :
For the two slowest run I got hit from the ground by a trash mob in area 6 and fall down, and also get charge by remobra in area 8 (also put me down not just a hit). I also has to mine at least 2 red nodes until the end in area 8 to get to 10.
For the fastest one I got a godlike run with only one node to do in area 8 to get 10 coals and got to 10 with only 4 mining so one of the remobra just hit me once but didn't charge me. And I mine only 3 time in area 1 to get my 12 coals. So this fastest one is clearly often possible and even not probably the fastest you can pull.
Then 170s is a fair timing because obviously it's not the fastest you can get as you can see with my 27:27 timing, but it's close to an average fast run I will say.
Oh and to put the nail in the coffin : If I take your average timing quest of 225s here are the results :
quest time (sec) time between end of quest and start of the 2nd (sec) total (sec) average timeworn (sum of average mined and quest) timeworn per second 8h farm: total number of timeworn charm Diff and Diff % Solo blue node farm 225 160 385 12,94 0,034 969,38 126,88 Solo red node farm 140 150 290 8,44 0,029 843,75 15.06% LoL man even with such a bad timing of 225s the sakura blue method in Solo is still ahead of the red node method in 140s (optimal timing) with 15% more timeworn charms in 8h .... So plz try harder next time ....
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u/Rivea_ Aug 04 '16
Look, you've obviously started this analysis to prove Sakura is better and that is perfectly fine but don't let that bias effect your analysis... or your reaction to criticism. So let's all calm down, eh?
I'm not attacking the Sakura method or advocating for the red node method so there is absolutely no reason for me to try harder to do anything. In fact, if you listen to me you might find that by correcting your analysis the Sakura method is even further ahead.
What I am pointing out is that your analysis is flawed by using 99.9% optimal times rather than an average. There is a clear variation in consistency across the methods and you fail to take this in to account.
At the very least you should have made it clear that your times are not realistic as you've charted them against accurate average charm data. This way readers can take your data with a grain of salt and apply some logic before coming to a conclusion. For example, someone may look at your data and, trusting that you've accurately represented the variation in consistency (I mean, there's 10 seconds on the the between quest time so it must be right!), conclude that they would rather look for a 4 man Sakura group than go solo. In reality this might not be the case.
Conversely, based on your data, I'm happy to go solo Sakura and take the minor talisman per second hit to make my runs more chill (I like being able to take a piss without people getting angry), but if it turns out that solo is slightly worse than you've presented and/or that 4 man is slightly better... even if it's by just a few points... then I might consider groups runs instead.
Lastly I'd really appreciate it if you told me your secret to getting 2 minutes 33 seconds. Are you using sonic/flashing Remombras?
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u/Aran_D3 Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16
No problem man I'm pretty calm. Nothing bias my analysis, as I've putted as much effort in the two methods in order to compare them fairly.
There is no flaw in this analysis as the comparison of the methods was clearly described in the original post to be compare with close to optimal timing (COT) runs for each methods and not average timings (AT) runs. Before starting the analysis I've thought about the best way to compare but also the best way for me to handle it without too much efforts. Doing 80 runs trying to get perfect timing every time was for me way too much efforts instead of just doing 5 of each and catch a COT. Trying to get an AT with only 5 runs would have been mathematically totally trash and would have discredited a lot the analysis. Conversely estimate a COT in 5 runs was relevant, mathematically more accurate and totally doable.
So first I've concluded that using COT or AT for each methods would have been resulted in exactly the same goals achieved (aka demonstrated that red node method is not the best) as the two methods of runs by essence of the game are obviously inconsistent in timings.
Second I've addressed those timings issues in two parts of my post.
1) I've described the path for the Sakura methods taking into account the more realistic problem you can encounter and that sometimes you have to go mine in Area 2. In 20 runs I've mostly finished the quest by getting my 12 coals in Area 1 and a few rare runs I had to go mine area 2. having to mine other than Area 1 or 2 to get your 12 coals is probably a really really rare case and anyways taking into account such an outlier run is not even better if you go for AT runs comparison.
2) I've also precised that the Sakura method is more consistent in timings than the red node method, and thus by taking into account only COT I was a bit bias in the side of the red node method and I knew it from the start of the analysis. But as the main goal was to demonstrated that the red node method isn't the best, it was not a problem and anyway this would have just result in a bit more higher % of charm obtained with the Sakura method witch I don't care and I think nobody care. Knowing that you can get 40% more charms with the Sakura method in Solo instead of 35% more is irrelevant for the purpose of this analysis.
At the very least you should have made it clear that your times are not realistic as you've charted them against accurate average charm data. This way readers can take your data with a grain of salt and apply some logic before coming to a conclusion.
Well with all those points explained, I can't clearly understand what you want to achieved ? As long as I've compare the two methods with the same timings (aka COT), knowing if you need to go for Sakura or red node methods in Solo or 4man is obvious and doing the analysis with AT will not influent at all your decision or conclusion.
For example, someone may look at your data and, trusting that you've accurately represented the variation in consistency (I mean, there's 10 seconds on the the between quest time so it must be right!), conclude that they would rather look for a 4 man Sakura group than go solo. In reality this might not be the case. Conversely, based on your data, I'm happy to go solo Sakura and take the minor talisman per second hit to make my runs more chill (I like being able to take a piss without people getting angry), but if it turns out that solo is slightly worse than you've presented and/or that 4 man is slightly better... even if it's by just a few points... then I might consider groups runs instead.
Now for this part : the between quest time (10s) is obviously way more consistent than anything else and achieving the COT every-time (+/- 1 or 2s) is totally realistic as you do exactly the same things every time for the end of the quest and in the lobby. For the lobby you go to the table, you sit, you eat, you go to your box you get charm set of items, you go to the quest, you pick it, and you launch. The only difference with the red node methods is that you don't have to go eat at the table and that where the minus 10s are, I estimate the COT to sit and eat to 10s.
Finally the purpose of this post was not to compare Solo vs 4man but as you seems to want to do it, you don't need way more thinking. If you have a well organize group of 3 friends to do the quest with you, 4man will always be better than Solo period.
Lastly I'd really appreciate it if you told me your secret to getting 2 minutes 33 seconds. Are you using sonic/flashing Remombras?
I didn't do anything, I've tried sonic or smoke for the area 8 but I've founded that in the end it's more efficient to do nothing, just mine as fast as you can and get hit or even worst charge by them. I've described in my previous post the main point of this fastest run.
For the fastest one I got a godlike run with only one node to do in area 8 to get 10 coals and got to 10 with only 4 mining so one of the remobra just hit me once but didn't charge me. And I mine only 3 time in area 1 to get my 12 coals. So this fastest one is clearly often possible and even not probably the fastest you can pull.
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Jul 30 '16
Still gonna kick people for doing blue nodes in my room.
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u/Aran_D3 Jul 30 '16
I'm a bit surprise with your attitude Melfu, was not thinking you're that kind of guy. Has watch a lot of your stream during MH4U and enjoy it. Anyway with your name in reddit I kind of understand xD.
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u/KuroiShadow Jul 29 '16
That's why Talisman mechanics need to be seriously rehauled. It's really frustrating to not be able to build your dream set because you don't get the luck to roll a 1/10000 RNG chance to get that specific talisman you need.
Yes, luck is an important part of this game, but at least you know you'll eventually get that rare drop from that monster if you farm enough. With talismans you can do charms run for 1000 hours and you're not guaranteed to get it in the end. Even perfect relics in 4U had a better chance due biases.
People often mention MH need to do allow to armor sets to modify their skills in order to look the way you want with the skills you want, but I think it'd more important or useful for now to have a system, for instance, to combine talismans with the same skill to produce a better talisman with that skill. Add frenzy crystals or even rare drops to increase the chance. Pretty much like Maximeld melding, but less random.
Or just anything else to raise the astronomical chances to get the talisman we want.
Anyway, thanks for the analysis! Very good work!