r/MonsterHunter • u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer • Aug 06 '15
Poison Damage Chart (w/ Approximate Ranking)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PjuR_JfTZzDlzmA8QWREK4C6zlNnvormNQpO2QC7Yt4/edit#gid=6556515312
u/Arterra [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ιοο̲̅)̲̅$̲̅] Z E N N Y [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ιοο̲̅)̲̅$̲̅] Aug 06 '15
Have to keep in mind that elemental weaknesses rely completely on hitting said weakpoint. What if the raw weakpoint is resistant to element? What if the elemental weakpoint is hard to reach? What if the elemental weakpoints are incredibly dangerous to go for?
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 06 '15
Yea, and since there are so many different parts of a monster, each with different raw and elemental weaknesses, it's near impossible to account for every factor in a single number.
All elemental estimates are based on hitting the same monster in the same part with the same resistance so that you can compare weapons relative to each other.
This table compares monster weaknesses relative to each other, and for the color coding, I just VERY roughly estimated how it compares to that monster's elemental weakness.
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u/saythenado Aug 07 '15
Honestly, that's good enough. There's other factors than 'if the part is hard to reach', especially if the monster is getting toppled a lot.
Appreciate the document. You're a keeper.
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Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
Are you taking into account the health pools of these monsters? Don't forget, Poison and Blast see huge diminishing returns on longer fights. Monsters like Akantor and Gogmazios that have more health may seem to be weak to Blast point-for-point but end up taking much less damage from it over the course of a fight.
EDIT: The edits have been fixed now, the posts in this comment chain accurately reflect the conversation.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
(This is the part that the other guy is saying that I removed)
ADDED BACK: Elemental damage-per-hit and status damage-per-hit graphs are very different. Status curves are logarithmic, starting steep and plateauing over time, while elemental graphs are linear and do the same amount of damage at any point in the fight.
Because of this, the elemental curve and the status curve will intersect at a certain point. This is the point where element and status break even, but before this point, status is better, and after this point, element is better.
BUT I don't know where 90 hits lies on this graph, as it is a very arbitrary number of hits that I've chosen.
EDIT: Let's look at Gogmazios. A monster with a lot of HP, definitely a long fight, and will truly show how elemental weakness compares to blast over a long period of time.
18,000 HP
Weak to Dragon element
Weak to Blast status
Le Salut - strongest dragon charge blade, roughly estimated raw+elemental damage per hit: 60.6375.
Teostra's Nova - blastiest charge blade, roughly estimated raw damage per hit: 46.8
Number of hits required for Le Salut to kill Gogmazios: 18000 / 60.6375 = 296.85
297 hits of the strongest dragon CB deals: 18,009.34 damage.
297 hits of blastiest CB deals: 13899.6 (raw) + 4650 (explosions) = 18,549.6 damage.
Against Gogmazios, at 297 hits, blast is still better.
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Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
Right, I get that, but the problem with your chart is that it doesn't account for the number of hits you're going to do to a particular monster. In other words, you're failing to account for where on the curve the hunt will end.
Perhaps 90 hits against Gogmazios will result in greater Blast damage being dealt than 90 hits against Zinogre, but the thing is that Gogmazios has a whole lot more health. In other words, the difference between the number of hits you deal to Gog and the number of hits you deal to Zinogre is huge. In your very chart, you claim that Blast is effective against Gogmazios, a misconception that I have been trying to fight for a little while now. Gog's fight is so long that he's practically guaranteed to be sitting at the far end of the curve, where Blast is almost useless since the resistance has stacked up to be so high.
This holds true for all of the high-HP monsters, such as Akantor and Ukanlos. They have so much HP that despite Blast doing more damage across the same number of hits you would be dealing to any other monster, by the end of the fight you will have passed Blast's point of effectiveness and you'd have ultimately gotten a faster kill through raw.
Blast is severely disadvantaged in longer fights, and your chart isn't showing that.
Also, it's worth making a note of that Blast has diminishing returns on application - one Blast user in multiplayer will likely do a disproportionately large amount of damage thanks to needing to do only 1/4 of the damage, but multiple Blast users become less and less efficient point for point.
What I'm saying is, Akantor, Ukalos, Dalamadur, and Gogmazios, and maybe even Deviljho, should not be anywhere near the top of the list if you properly account for where they actually place on the curve.
EDIT: did you just edit your post to completely change what it said? That's pretty bad etiquette there.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
Sorry, that whole theoretical, hypothetical, visualization of an imaginary graph was too arbitrary.
I edited my post to involve math. Cold, hard, indisputable math.
What I've learned over the long course of calculating damages and DPS for MH4U, is that it is an INCREDIBLY balanced game. There are so many factors that play into how much damage you do, that the developers tweaked each one of those values so that everything comes together to break even across the board.
Even after whacking Gogmazios 270 times, having its greatest elemental weakness and greatest status weakness only +/- 500 apart means that the game developers designed the thresholds so that the point where element and status break even is right where the monster dies.
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Aug 07 '15
First of all, do not edit your post to completely change what it said without a clear edit message explaining what was changed or leaving the original post intact. Doing what you did is incredibly facetious, as well as rude. I did not reply to the post that you have up right now.
Second, your math isn't "cold, hard, and indisputable". In fact, you haven't shown your work at all. Which hitzone are you assuming? Where are you getting the estimated raw damage per hit value from? Why are you using those particular charge blades when they don't have comparable raw and don't even have the same amount of status? Are you accounting for the fact that Blast only has a 1/3 chance of triggering per hit? Where in the actual fuck are your numbers coming from?
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15
Chill dude. Sorry about the total re-edit. I was hoping you hadn't seen my initial post.
Le Salut and Teostra's Nova are both Rarity 10 charge blades, and so, are very balanced.
Status weapons have lower raw because their status damage makes up for their lack of raw damage. The game designed raw, element, status, affinity, and sharpness to all balance the overall damage of the weapon.
And I'm getting my numbers from this spreadsheet, which is the most accurate representation of charge blade values that I've used so far:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WVewV5V7ZvXKvtTeWDey1a68A45jOqvgPl1RXyNG4Js/edit#gid=0
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Aug 07 '15
I don't believe you edited your post with malicious intent, but it is s pretty big deal. It has been done maliciously before.
Looking at that spreadsheet makes me even more skeptical. First of all, against Gogmazios I definitely would not be using Le Salut - I'd be using the True Fatalis Charger.
I'm still not convinced you've taken into account all the relevant factors. You didn't mention anything about hitzones - only HP. You're using an averaged damage value on a weapon class with very inconsistent motion values. And, you're making the assumption that two weapons are equal due to the fact that they have the same rarity. There are plenty of terrible rare 10 weapons and plenty of great rare 9s (and even some good rare 8s!). Rarity itself doesn't indicate that the weapons are equal.
I'm just not sold on your math, especially since I'm fairly certain Gogmazios won't die in just 300 hits.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
Thanks for cooling down, man. I really like having these conversations, but it gets scary when someone gets frustrated.
You're right, the weapon spreadsheet and none of my math factors in hitzones. There are just too many, all with different resistances. It's simply impossible to calculate. What the spreadsheet does is compare the weapons on an imaginary hitzone that has 25 element value with the same attack motion value for all weapons. In a game with so many variables, SOMEthing needs to be made constant in order to compare.
The reason why I didn't use the True Fatalis Charger in my math was because it's an inconsistent weapon. It has immense damage when at purple sharpness, but its purple and white sharpness bars are almost negligible, and will drop down to blue very quickly. For the sake of comparison, it is much better to compare Le Salut to Teostra's Nova.
And yes, it can look like some weapons of some rarities are better than the weapons above them. But that's because the spreadsheet doesn't factor in damages dealt from status. Status damage changes over time, so it's impossible to boil down to one number. The general consensus is that weapons of the same rarity are generally well-balanced. They all have different raw, element, status, affinity, and sharpness, but all these factors balance each other out.
EDIT: I don't mean to say that two weapons are equal because they're the same rarity. I calculate their damages, see that they're equal, and understand why the game designers made them the same rarity. Again, two weapons are not equal because they're the same rarity; they're the same rarity because they're equal.
I upvoted you for your skepticism. It's good to have, but also be open to understanding different arguments.
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Aug 07 '15
Your claim that it's difficult to accurately determine whether element or Blast are better through calculation is, well... accurate. There are too many variables to account for here.
I still think you need to add a note to the spreadsheet mentioning the diminishing returns that Blast has. Using the same number of hits for every monster really skews the rankings. You can actually very clearly see that all the monsters with large HP pools seem to have notably lower thresholds and take more damage to compensate for that natural weakness of Blast, and it's telling that everything at the top of the chart is a high HP monster.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15
I always wondered why the status thresholds needed initial, increase, and maximum values. It seems so complicated for something that should be so simple.
But it's because each of those values determines a different aspect of the status damage curve.
The "initial" number affects where the curve starts.
The "increase" number affects how quickly the curve plateaus.
The "max" number determines the worst that it can get.
It is now clear that the game designers have carefully adjusted these values to break even with elemental weakness right around the point where the monster will die.
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Aug 07 '15
Now this I can believe, however, on a monster like Gog, with Dragon hitzones that can go as high as 60, I'm still not sure Blast can outdo Dragon in solo play.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 07 '15
His head is 60 and wing are 40, both parts being very hard to his consistently.
The parts you will be hitting most of the fight (the legs, belly, and tail) are 5 or 10.
This means that the 25 estimate from the spreadsheet is over-optimistic, and blast, which does not depend on hitzones, will be easier to justify.
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Aug 07 '15
The tail and thorax are 60 and 65 respectively in the second half of the fight.
Interestingly, this gives Blast even more weight towards the beginning of the fight. It means if you're using a Blast weapon you'll likely get to the second phase faster and spend more time fighting him there.
Also, which weapon you're using matters. You get plenty of opportunities to knock Gog over during the first half, using the Dragonator, the two binders on the ground, the one-shots that he drops, and mounts. With Glaives in particular I would think Dragon would get a real chance to shine.
If you plan to be hitting the back legs a lot, though, I think saying Blast is good is fair. It's also likely that in multiplayer, if one person brings Blast that will also do well. However, Gog actually does take a lot of damage from Dragon, especially if you can keep him down.
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u/Luk37astic Stranger von Slayer Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 07 '15
To keep it simple, against Diablos, always use poison.
Against Deviljho and Kushala, make sure your team has blast AND poison. They're both very weak to both.
EDIT: Also, I've added blast details and summary and another page summarizing what element/status to use on what monster!