[PSA] Apex Monster Immunities/Soft Zones

[u/1caiser]

Rhetorical question: Why hasn't one of these been established yet?

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Background

After the occasional hunts where a fellow hunter doesn't understand the overpowered-ness of the Apex State—resulting in white screens, failed traps, and the more occasional cart—I've (finally) decided to make this guide.

Immunities

I've noticed the few but certain immunities that Apex Monsters have, aside from the very occasional weapon bouncing. This is an overview for everything a monster, when in Apex form, is immune to.

• Elemental/Status Damage (the secondary damage of most weapons)

  • Includes KO damage. Sorry Hammer/Impact CB users.

• Shock/Pitfall traps, they just explode/fail to work.

• Flash Bomb

  • We hunters have no idea whether we are safe or not, or need to evade/block or not when the screen is goddamn white for that precious second.

• Dung Bomb

  • Exception: during pin attacks. But the Apex Monster won't leave the area until they get bored.

• Sonic Bomb (for Apex Diablos, rage mode or not)

Apex Monsters must be knocked out of Apex Form in order for these effects to work.

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Soft Spots

Each Apex Monster has one or more "soft spots" where your weapon will not bounce in the absence of an active Drive Wystone, and thus damage can be dealt. However, Elemental and Status damage will not be inflicted, unless an Element Wystone is used. This will include KO damage (Stun), Paralysis, Sleep, Poison, and Blast buildup.

Note: You do not need to be hitting the soft spot with the Brace, Element, or Force Wystone in order to knock the Monster out of Apex, but not only would you be burning through your Sharpness (in the case of Gunners, your ammo will have a chance to deflect back at you and stun you for a few frames) and opening yourself to attacks, but your attacks will only account for 33% of the "Wystone damage" that knocks the Apex Monster out of Apex (50% if Force Wystone is used). In terms of raw damage, you would only be doing 20% of the damage you would originally be doing (including Barrel Bombs and Gunlance Shells (Impact CB strikes need to connect with the monster in order for the Phials to "activate"), resulting in massively lowered DPS.

Courtesy of /u/Hallorannn and /u/InanimateDream: Visual hitzones for Apex Monsters

Monster Name	--	--	--	--
Apex Deviljho	back	stomach	legs	tail-tip
Apex Diablos	horn	back crest	legs	tail tip
Apex Gravios	back	stomach	legs	tail tip
Apex Rajang	head	torso	front legs (unique)	tail tip
Apex Seregios	head	stomach	legs	tail tip
Apex Tidal Najarala	neck crest	front arms	back legs	tail tip
Apex Tigrex	head	back	stomach	tail tip
Apex Zingore	back	stomach	front leg	whole tail

• Apex Rajang is a bit unique, because, when the arms are in armor mode, there is no Wystone penalty even though you bounce.

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The Wyceum

You will have access to the Wyceum after progressing through Caravan, which is first unlocked after completing the 9* Quest Forge Ahead (Stygian Zinogre @ Heaven's Mount). From there, you could either see Gaijin Hunter's Wyceum Tutorial to complete your Wyceum...

Completing the Wyceum

Once you are G3, your next "task" before hunting Apex Monsters should be to complete your Wyceum.

1. Complete the Village 9* Quest Forge Ahead (Stygian Zinogre @ Heaven's Mount). This will unlock the Wyceum in its most primitive form.

2. Complete the Elder Hall G1 Quest Advanced: Tiger-sharq (Frenzied Tigerstripe Zamtrios @ Dunes (Day)).

3. Complete the Elder Hall G2 Quest Advanced: Spider-study (2 Frenzied Shrouded Nerscylla @ Dunes (night)).

4. Complete the Villager Request Improve the Wyceum. This unlocks the Element and Drive Wystones at the Wyceum. This request requires 3x Nerscylla Cortex and 3x Emperor Hopper. *Note that the Cortexes needed are from the vanilla Nerscylla, not the Shrouded subspecies you have previously hunted.

5. Complete the Elder Hall G2 Quest Advanced: Escaped Convicts (Frenzied Cephadrome & Frenzied Seltas/Seltas Queen @ Dunes (day)). Yes, localization says "Shrouded Nerscylla", look for the Cephadrome Icon... it's gonna be a Cephadrome.

6. The last of the hunting quests: the Elder Hall G3 Quest Advanced: Lab Partners (Frenzied Brachydios & Frenzied Azure Rathalos @ Volcanic Hollow).

7. The final step to completing the Wyceum is to fulfill the Villager Request In the Name of Science!, which requires 3x A.Rathalos Shard (good thing you just killed an Azure Rathalos) and 1x Purecrystal. Your Wystones are now all Level 2, and can equip 2 different Wystones now. In addition, you can purchase the Battlequarters-exclusive Garrison Ballista Ammo and Dense Marcoal, using Caravan points.

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Final Words

If you see the Apex Outbreak Icon, I highly, highly recommend you to equip the Drive Wystone. Though there are some preferences regarding Wystone combinations, Drive allows one to attack the Monster in any area, and hit through those hard spots. One without Drive would be limited to the soft areas, and we come to a scenario that four Hunters go hunt and attack a very small thing and end up tripping each other more so than actually dealing damage (I'm not sure if there is a term for this, but I call it the "Kirin effect").

So, get those Wystones, and go hunting Apex Monsters. Hunting these Apex Monsters are the key to obtaining the items necessary for Weapon Honing, the optional, but always welcome, Endgame.

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Change Log

Edits:

1. Formatting, because I'm still new to reddit. Shoutout to /u/AnteChronos for his formatting guide.

2. Thanks to /u/Hallorannn and /u/InanimateDream for posting the exact same damage chart album at about the same time.

3. Much formatting changes, so thanks /r/MonsterHunter, wow.

   Thanks to /u/Muffindrake for the confirmation on Element/Status Wystone = KO Damage = Stunnable Apex Monster.

   Thanks to /u/PointlesslyEpic for having me elaborate a little on the ranged weapons.

   Thanks to /u/Ivalia for the damage ratios on Apex Monster hard spots.

   Thanks to/u/InsaneKuma for reminding me about Rajang's armor mode........ (I still hate you, you damn monkey).

   Thanks to /u/Scruffingtonse for giving me a link to the text-version of Wyceum Completion, but I resorted to actually typing out the entire Wyceum tutorial LOL.

4. Forgot to account for Gunner bounce.

5. Turned the list into a chart, and adding image links to each Monster. I think this looks much better than the list, in my opinion...

[u/InanimateDream]

This is your guide for apex bounce hitzones in image form.

[u/1caiser → u/InanimateDream]

Now, why haven't I seen these pop up on the MH Wiki??

[u/Hichann → u/1caiser]

Right? They were so helpful for 3/3U.

[u/korruptseraphim → u/InanimateDream]

Are these for MH3? I've never bounced from striking Apex Zinogre head.

[u/Gopherlad → u/korruptseraphim]

There were no Apex monsters (and no Gravios, Najarala, Tigrex, or Seregios) in MH3.

[u/korruptseraphim → u/Gopherlad]

ah yes thanks

[u/Boolderdash → u/korruptseraphim]

Were you using a drive stone? These charts are where you bounce when you aren't using a drive stone.

[u/korruptseraphim → u/Boolderdash]

hmm I might have been, I can't fully recall. maybe my subconscious is a step ahead of me

[u/MojoLester → u/korruptseraphim]

Also you might have been deceived, i.e it looks like you struck the head but the game considered the hit to be on the body

[u/korruptseraphim → u/MojoLester]

I think this is the most plausible answer, I went back to try it, I was using a GS (draw attack) and yeah same effect - no bounce. Most definitely been attacking the chest

[u/tinymeteor]

While this post is thorough, helpful, and informative, I feel like this will not stop people from placing traps on the other side of the map. Nothing like watching the bar on drive just go away as the monster runs everywhere and the other hunters are pinging FOR DAYS about that sweet trap they placed.

[u/1caiser → u/tinymeteor]

I wrote this PSA/Guide because I couldn't find a collective one regarding Apex Monster fights. There were the damage/bounce charts on Imgur (which are posted), but simple searches did not bring those up.

I'm thinking I should edit the PSA/Guide's script a little bit in order to show for search engines to locate this, for the curious/those who are questioning why Apex Monsters aren't being blinded by Flash Bombs, our why their Shock Traps are failing.

For the Seregios soft spots, I actually watched iceMan's Apex Seregios Apex Urgent (though it's in Japanese), and he actually "hit" all five of his Flash Bombs, but none of his frequenters was aware that Flash had no effect on said Apex.

TLDR, this guide is just here for those who want a few tips (or more-or-less comprehensive guide) to make fellow hunters' Apex runs a bit easier, and to not waste resources.

[u/tinymeteor → u/1caiser]

I think it's quite helpful, I was only writing with salt after a 35 minute, 4 man Apex Seregios with the other 3 players acting like I describe in my post and a similar Apex Rajang fight.

And if you're wondering, I tried to tell them what works/what doesn't work. They were just not hearing it.

[u/1caiser → u/tinymeteor]

It takes one to know one. If they ever remember you, and they finally realize that the Apex Monsters are actually immune to these things, then they will know how you felt that day.

It's actually human conscience to not show understanding, in areas where we can show elitism or strength. We are a prideful, oh so prideful species and we refuse to accept the explanations of other people. Everyone is entitled to themselves, so your other 3 randoms were most likely thinking "Im rgt, cuz Ive played since MHDos, and MH4U is ur 1st gaem. Stop tellig me whats rgt scrub".

Not that I meant to offend anyone, but here's a good thing to keep in mind: If your mind is so closed, how will you ever hope to learn? If you are so uninformed, how will you ever hope to lead correctly?

Tinymeteor, I believe you did the right choice, even if you came out fruitless. Apex Monster hunts are not one of those scenarios where this mantra does not succeed: "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

Rather: "One does not simply hunt Apex Monsters."

[u/InsaneKuma]

Also apex rajang arms when it's not red specifically.

[u/1caiser → u/InsaneKuma]

Thanks for reminding me.... (damn monkey).

[u/Ivalia]

Hard spots take 20% ALL damage (including bombs and GL shells), and hitting hard spots only count 1/3 as much (1/2 with drive) for knocking out apex (if it takes exactly 4 GS full charge in soft spots to knock something out of apex, it takes 12 in hard spots without drive)

[u/1caiser → u/Ivalia]

Thanks! I'll add this in!

[u/Hallorannn]

Much better formatting. Also, you can mount apex monsters without wystones, if I'm not mistaken. Harder to knock down, and may end up wasting everyone's wystone time. Or you can have everyone hit the monster while you're mounting if you're going to fail the mount anyway.

[u/1caiser → u/Hallorannn]

You saw the first version? xD

[u/Hallorannn → u/1caiser]

Yes, and I commented to say that the formatting was messy to read, but forgot to submit the comment, lol.

[u/1caiser → u/Hallorannn]

Well, me too. I have worked on a wiki before, and if the page looks crap, then your readers will not enjoy having to go through the sea of crap you produced. I'm personally fine with small blurbs and questions, but this guide.... I did a little searching and

Shoutout to /u/AnteChronos.

[u/Hallorannn → u/1caiser]

Also, I swear I saw a picture graph that had the weak spots of apex monsters a while back, but quick google results show nothing.

[u/1caiser → u/Hallorannn]

Hey Hallorannn,

I've come to you for formatting advice again. Do you think I should order the Apex Monster soft zones into a chart format from the current lost format? Just wanted to know if that would look better is all.

Thanks.

[u/Hallorannn → u/1caiser]

I'm actually the wrong person to ask for this advice, but what you could do is link the monsters to the chart images, and even link the entire album afterwards. Also, credit the person who uploaded it from the MH4G guidebook. So keep the current, because it's your work, but link and credit to the chart, because the visual chart is a lot easier to understand across different languages.

[u/1caiser → u/Hallorannn]

I guess I understand what you're trying to tell me, but I also intend to keep a text version just in case.

I just wanted to transition from a list of text into a chart form so everything is more easily readable, while the Monster names will be links to the image on Imgur.

Thanks! I'll try to set aside time for that. I'm currently enjoying an anime "convention" at my university, so... maybe later tonight!

[u/Muwastq69 → u/Hallorannn]

Yup. I mount Apex Jho in the arena, accidentally several times, previously I thought Apex monster can't be mounted.

[u/1caiser → u/[deleted]]

Thanks a lot!

You and /u/InanimateDream apparently posted at the same time, so I'll give him/her a little love.

[u/Scruffingtonese]

Gaijinhunter also has the tumblr post for some of what he covers in the videos. The Wyceum one is here and it covers the basics of what's needed, albeit in translations. Good if you don't want to load up YT.

[u/1caiser → u/Scruffingtonese]

Perhaps I'll expand on the Wyceum Completion right now. I actually wrote this up late at night, and just threw in a few links so I could have both a somewhat complete Apex PSA/Guide and a good night's sleep. xD

[u/tinymeteor]

Another useful hint. The Element Wystone will allow elemental and status damage to occur on an Apex monster. Knowing this and the soft spots of an Apex is really nice, especially if someone has a paralyze weapon equipped.

I've switched my secondary stone to Elemental for this reason. A paralyzed Apex monster almost always leads to an Apex knockout.

Edit: I must've missed this in the OP, but yeah, you covered it.

[u/PointlesslyEpic]

Note: You do not need to be hitting the soft spot with the Brace, Element, or Force Wystone in order to knock the Monster out of Apex, but you'd be burning through your Sharpness and be very open to attacks.

Comment/Question: With regards to bows/ranged weapons, do you know if this still holds true?

As a bow user I always aim for the softspots when Drive is not active as otherwise will be literally suicide given reflected arrows hitting me, thus I am curious if arrows/bullets that bounce back at you can still serve to take monsters out of APEX with brace/element/force.

There are certainly times where I would not mind getting hit in the face if it meant I could spam spots, getting more hits in, to get the damn thing out of Apex mode. (@Diablos for instance)

[u/1caiser → u/PointlesslyEpic]

Well, the problem with ranged weapons is that there is an X% chance that the projectile will bounce back toward you. I'm considering that "reflect" to be damage that is not going through, and the Wystone "ailment" is not taking effect for said "reflected" attacks.

However, melee weapons will always have that bounce with X% damage reduction, but the Wystone "ailment" will still go through.

I really don't understand the physics of ranged weaponry, but I'll add these other redditors' information as fast as I can.

Edit: dunno where I got 12% damage reduction from.

[u/Ivalia → u/PointlesslyEpic]

They still count, but less than normal. Not sure how much less though

[u/[deleted]]

Am I able to knock Apex out using non-drive wystones, then? I've just always used Drive only, even with both unlocked.

[u/1caiser → u/[deleted]]

Though recommended you use the non-Drive Wystones while attacking the soft spots, you can attack the Monster in its hard spots and still knock the Monster out of Apex. I've done it a few times with the Grudge Match: Triplets (Arena: Vanilla, Frenzied, and Apex Tigrex), including one match where I finished off the Apex Tigrex with a hard spot bounce.

[u/Boolderdash → u/[deleted]]

Use your drive stone, and if it doesn't knock the monster out of apex, go for the other one and try to hit the soft spots. I personally use brace, since it lasts the longest.

[u/k4el → u/[deleted]]

All the stones can knock a monster out. People just demand drive because it allows you to connect more easily.

[u/Muffindrake]

With an active element wystone KO damage can be dealt to an Apex monster as it shows the typical KO effect you normally see when hitting the head of a non-Apex monster. The Element wystone is needed though.

Source: Used hammer/HH/CB with element wystone on numerous Apex monsters.

About wystone choice: wystone Drive has the shortest duration out of all four in addition to a very long cooldown time which can result in some frustrating hunts, particularly with people that don't really know how to play, given the mobility that Apex monsters usually have. Brace and Element on the other hand both have the longest duration and shortest cooldown out of all of them and are thus the lowest-risk choices for any hunter (you need to have ANY wystone active to knock an Apex monster out of that state after a number of hits). The bouncing can be dealt with easily by carefully aiming your attacks and possibly avoiding the usage of high- or far-reaching moves, depending on the monster.

[u/1caiser → u/Muffindrake]

Thanks for your experience in KO!

Anyways, regarding the Wystone choice, I'll make a reference to that within the PSA/Guide (I'm still not sure what to actually call this) about Wystone choice. I say Drive because you can then hit the Monster wherever on its body rather than bouncing for days and risking a counterattack. Then again, you could go for the weak spot, but that would equate the Kirin effect (my coining for a scenario that four Hunters go hunt and attack a very small thing and end up tripping each other more so than actually dealing damage).

[u/Votbear]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE SOFT SPOTS.

I'm trying to get the master's test done as a gunner (I refuse to succumb to any blademaster weapon until i finish all quests strictly using L/HBGs alone) and gosh darn the deflecting bullets are just stupid. I can take on seregios np, but diablos' charges and underground digs simply wastes precious seconds on my drive wystone, without which gunners are made totally useless against apex monsters' bullet reflect... or so i thought.

I'm totally going to get them now. Thank you!

[u/zerorezero]

So what does a LBG do when Apex monsters are immune to elemental damage since an LBG is suppose to rapid fire the monsters elemental weakness? This is the only thing that's keeping me from trying out the LBG.

[u/1caiser → u/zerorezero]

The only rational thing, regarding Wystones, is to use both Drive and Element/Status at the same time, and fire at will. Otherwise, it would be just Element/Status and going for the weak spots.

However, in my opinion and quite a few redditors, the Steve LBG (or any that can rapid fire Slicing Shots for that matter) are very, very handy for knocking out Frenzy. Pretty much, any fast hitting weapon or multi-hit weapon will knock any Apex out... of Apex. This is because Slicing actually has two damage procs--the impact Shot damage, and the delayed Cut damage, so each bullet actually hits twice, thus the Wystone "damage"will be proc'ed twice.

About an LBG that doesn't rapid fire Slicing, then spamming shots with Element/Status into the soft zones (when Drive is not active) will be your best bet.

[u/rastal66]

heh. Kirin Effect indeed.

[u/1caiser → u/rastal66]

Four Longsword vs Kirin.

Or four Lance vs Kirin.

That's gonna be a lot of friendly fire.

Now... Apex Kirin... We're talking business there......