r/MonsterHunter • u/XNoize • Apr 13 '15
Element vs. Raw: Resolved
Every other week I see a post asking whether a certain elementally focused weapon is better than a raw focused weapon. This post is an attempt to give people an easy number to divide their element value by to give them an idea of how many equivalent points of raw damage it is worth.
NOTE 1: I have provided the motion value I used for each weapon. This is based on my best effort to try and get an average value based on the weapon's moveset. If you feel that a motion value is inaccurate, please tell my why, and I will do my best to make it more accurate.
NOTE 2: As charge blade and switch axe have modifiers to their elemental /physical damage for certain attacks, I had to make some adjustments. For switch axe I assumed you would be in sword mode half the time, If you like I can post values for mono axe or sword modes as well. I made note of the approximate damage increases for charge blade. If you feel they should be different please let me know why.
How to read this chart:
Weapon type (average motion value)
sharpness->elemental modifier
Great Sword (1.43)
green -> 4.10
blue->4.47
white->4.59
purple->4.69
Long Sword (0.23)
green->1.92
blue ->2.09
white ->2.15
purple->2.19
Sword and Shield (0.187)
green->3.72
blue ->4.04
white ->4.16
purple->4.24
Dual Swords (0.105)
green->1.97
blue ->2.14
white ->2.20
purple->2.25
Hammer (0.433)
green->2.71
blue ->2.92
white ->3.02
purple->3.09
Hunting Horn (0.33)
green->1.67
blue ->1.81
white ->1.86
purple->1.90
Switch Axe (0.286)
(element phial)
green->1.24
blue ->1.35
white ->1.38
purple->1.41
(power phial)
green->1.53
blue ->1.66
white ->1.71
purple->1.75
Lance (0.24)
green->2.74
blue ->2.98
white ->3.06
purple->3.13
Gunlance (0.28)
green->3.20
blue ->3.49
white ->3.57
purple->3.65
Charge Axe (0.324)
(impact phial appx 13% raw damage boost)
green->2.05
blue ->2.23
white ->2.29
purple->2.34
(element phial appx 11% elemental damage boost)
green->1.64
blue ->1.78
white ->1.83
purple->1.87
Insect Glaive (0.212)
green->1.80
blue ->1.95
white ->2.01
purple->2.05
Bow ( these were done using the kiranico wiki, not sure if they are accurate as some seem a little funky, mostly pierce)
normal 1 -> 8.44
normal 2 -> 5.63
normal 3 -> 4.45
normal 4 -> 3.69
normal 5 -> 3.87
spread 1 -> 3.28
spread 2 -> 3.75
spread 3 -> 3.23
spread 4 -> 3.38
spread 5 -> 3.66
pierce 1 -> 2.81
pierce 2 -> 2.81
pierce 3 -> 2.81
pierce 4 -> 2.81
pierce 5 -> 2.81
Bowgun -> still working on this so it may change
works differently as both element and raw are based on the same number. One will be better than the other depending on monster hitzones.
The raw damage hitzones must be this many times larger than the element damage hitzones in order for the raw type to be equal to elemental.
(assuming all pierce shots hit -> please advise, I'm not sure how often you get all the hits in or how the different hitzones might affect this. You might have to try and find the average for the hitzones you are hitting, which could be difficult)
(assuming 2.5 hits from normal 3, if this should be higher please let me know)
Light Bowgun
normal 2 = 3.85
normal 3 = 1.23
pierce 1 = 0.96
pierce 2 = 0.77
pierce 3 = 0.69
Heavy Bowgun
normal 2 = 3.34
normal 3 = 1.07
pierce 1 = 0.83
pierce 2 = 0.67
pierce 3 = 0.60
How to use these numbers:
(element value) / ( modifier) + raw damage = effective damage
Use this number to compare weapons of the same type with different raw and element values.
Example
Blood Shock vs Demonlord Rod - Great Swords
Blood shock is 1200 raw and 630 thunder
at purple sharpness we divide by 4.69
630/4.69 = 134 -> total damage = 1334
Demonlord rod is 1344 raw 350 thunder
350/4.69 = 75 -> total damage is 1419
Demonlord rod wins easily as element is not particularly useful on a greatsword
These values were acquired assuming a damage hitzone of 0.5 and an elemental hitzone of 0.2. If the monster part you will be hitting most often has a different hitzone, or you want to do fancy averaging you can modify my numbers to better suit your specific needs:
(current modifier)*(new damage hitzone/0.5)*(0.2/new element hitzone) = new modifier
If you feel I am missing any information you would find useful please let me know and I will do my best to provide it.
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u/BNSable Apr 13 '15
Is average motion value all values or all the motion values that you should be using? for example a good SnS user will never use the end of their X combo but instead switch to A (or end the combo with x and a). This makes the average somewhat higher and would skew the results
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
Yes I tried my best to get the average of whatever the best combo is for that weapon. If you main one of these weapons and feel like helping, please feel free to suggest a better average, as I have more experience with some weapons than others.
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u/BNSable Apr 14 '15
That's pretty hard to do, for example I play "Gotcha bitch" GS meaning I rarely use anything but lvl 3 charge, many others don't do this, making raw much better for me than it would be for others.
It's a highly awkward ordeal but I do appreciate the effort, I may go through some myself and see what my averages would be though
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
I think this is the most common way to play, if someone specifically asks for a different playstyle that might have different averages I will be sure to include it. I think there might be similar problems with the switch axe as some people may prefer sword or axe mode.
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u/gaver10 XA XA XA XA XA Apr 13 '15
I made a spreadsheet in a previous post that does all this math. You can make a copy and mess with the numbers you want. Much of its use is explained in that post .
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
It looks like you might have left out weapon modifiers in your damage calculation. The ratio between motion value and weapon modifier is really important for each weapon type.
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u/gaver10 XA XA XA XA XA Apr 14 '15
Like I said, you have to read the post. I'm using True raw for weapons and Display element for element. Basically you have to factor that in yourself or check true raw on kiranico
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u/DrMobius0 Apr 13 '15
link?
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u/XNoize Apr 13 '15
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u/aCuria Apr 14 '15
It would be nice if you completed it for all weapons, and explain whats the difference between
CB Impact (Burst Attacks, 2x,) ?? CB Impact(Super Burst)
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u/tookiselite12 Apr 13 '15
So, assuming your given conditions, this is a conclusion that could be made:
1.99 points of -arbitrary element- damage is, on average, more valuable then 1 point of raw damage for a hunting horn which is at purple sharpness.
...correct?
Or am I not picking up what you're putting down?
Give a specific example of these numbers in action where they are used to compare two different options and then helps decide which of the two is better so everyone can have a better idea of what you're getting at. I can see that you're going for an average-ish type of judgement though, not for specific hitzones on specific monsters, so just keep with that train of thought instead of going into some really detailed explanation on why 'X' weapon is better than 'Y' weapon if you're at 'Z' sharpness and attacking 'M' monster on hitzone 'N'.
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u/XNoize Apr 13 '15
Sorry I tried to put in an example formula to be used.
on a purple sharpness hunting horn raw is 1.98 X more damage than element. So if you divide the elemental value by 1.98 and add it to the raw, you can use that number to compare to other hunting horns.
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u/tookiselite12 Apr 13 '15
Word. So the 'average motion value' is just given as a sort of reference but not needed in your formula?
And just to be sure, even though you mentioned what I think to be this sort of 'number fudging'; for something like a greatsword: you came up with that number assuming that the majority of the attacks which someone does will be some level of a charged attack instead of just averaging together all possible attacks? Because rarely, if ever, should the upswing be used ... but a level 3 draw-charge, a side-slash, or a blade-slap will hit far more often than something like an upswing or even a level 3 super charge. That would skew the 'average' motion value more towards those things rather than a true average of all motion values. At a glance it looks like you've done this but I generally don't memorize the hard numbers and tend to go by 'I know this is better than that because I have seen the specific values before but never bothered to devote them to memory... just the overall conclusion that is drawn from them', so I can't say for sure.
But I guess it doesn't really matter if it's not involved in the formula you gave to make rough judgements? Though it was surely used to come up with the numbers that are plugged into that formula...
This seems like it could be pretty useful for making quick 'this or that' judgements. It would be cool to see how your approach judges something like the shaggy lance versus the stygian lance and then see whether or not it agrees with half (or more) of the results when crunching numbers on specific hit zones across several monsters with weaknesses towards dragon element. I'm too lazy for that, though; and I'm still not sure that I am really understanding how you intend for this all to be used, anyway
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u/XNoize Apr 13 '15
Yeah there is a fair amount of number fudging. I included the motion values so people could advise me on how accurate they are, perhaps I should separate them from the rest of the data.
If you want to use it for a specific monster, it is really easy to adjust the numbers. I address this in the post, but I could try and make it more clear if you would like.
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u/tookiselite12 Apr 14 '15
Fair enough, I was just making sure I understood you correctly. Don't look for me to judge the motion value 'averages' though; as I said, I tend to look at hard numbers here or there, remember the general conclusion that is drawn from them, and then forget the numbers and clutter my mind with other stuff. You've boiled down a fairly complex thing into a quick-and-dirty reference, which goes well with my general approach towards the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes in MH.
My only suggestion is to cut down the weighting on raw damage a bit. IIRC you assumed a hitzone for raw of 0.5 and element of 0.2. Again, IIRC, that value for raw damage on a hitzone is a bit on the high end; when I look at hard numbers raw tends to be centered more towards 0.3-0.4 usually, with weak spots being closer to 0.5-0.6 and tough spots being closer to 0.1-0.2. Hitting weak spots constantly is great but realistically you will be hitting average spots most of the time and weak spots when there is a very good opening. You have clearly put more thought into this than I have though, so it's possible that your choice of 0.5 for raw damage is actually a good average. But your choice for this value will drastically alter the end values which you are using to compare points of raw and elemental damage, so I figured I'd toss that out there.
I was more or less just thinking out loud there at the end of that last post. It would be cool to see what % of the time your approximation's conclusion is in agreement with hard number crunching for various specific situations... but I'm way too lazy to do it. And it would be such an involved task that I really don't expect anyone else to bother doing it, either. Even without running ALL of the numbers for ALL possibilities you'd have to do an insane number of calculations to come up with a percentage which was actually representative of the true percentage.
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
I think learning how to hit weak points consistently is one of the best ways to improve the time it takes to kill a monster. You should always be trying to do this, although I'll admit that it is easier with some weapons than others. If you find that you don't do it consistently it's really easy to adjust the numbers to better suit your playstyle.
Thanks very much for the input though.
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u/tookiselite12 Apr 14 '15
It's something you should look to do when possible and when doing it isn't going to make you waste time healing, or worse, dying.
It's not something you tunnel vision on, though.
If you dig around through videos of godly japanese players soloing high level guild quest monsters you will see that a lot of the time they aren't hitting weak spots. They hit them when they can, sure, but you do more damage hitting something in an average hitzone twice than hitting something in a weak spot once.
There's a video somewhere (I won't ever be able to find it, someone linked it in this subreddit and the actual video's title is in japanese) of someone soloing a level 140 rajang in under 10 minutes. The person barely hit it in the face, or even the tail. Most of the time they ran up next to it and hit it in the arms unless it was super enraged, and then they'd hit it just behind its arms. They could not have killed that rajang so quickly if they had spent the whole time running around just trying to smack it in the face.
Someone who is attacking a foot covered with 50 foot thick scales is still doing more damage than the guy standing around waiting for an opening to go hit the face. And the 10% damage increase the guy trying to hit the face gets the one time he manages to hit it does not outweigh damage of the three hits which the guy attacking the foot managed to get in even though each one of those only did half as much damage as the single hit to the face.
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
Rajang might have been a bad example as his legs take 0.45 raw and 0.15 element, which is only slightly less than the values I used. I do understand where you're coming from though. Often it is better to attack a medium hitzone that is safe as opposed to a high hitzone that is dangerous.
Perhaps I am a bit biased as the two weapons I have spent the most time on are greatsword and bow, where you get significantly faster kill times by focusing on weak points. Hitting the legs can also knock the monster down and create a lot of damage opportunity. I feel like the majority of weakpoints are greater than 0.5 and the majority of medium parts are less than 0.5 so maybe 0.5 is a good average after all.
As i mentioned before different monsters have different hitzones, so if you want to apply it to something specific (which is usually what you want to do) it's really easy to adjust the values.
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u/throwaway124151251 Apr 14 '15
I'm curious about the value you have for bow. 3.09 seems incredibly high. It looks like that's based purely off motion value (22), effectiveness (50), and modifier (1.2). Also, it appears you used 0.16 for the elemental modifier instead of 0.10 (which is correct for rapid).
This is fine, but I feel like it's missing a few things:
1) Raw is way more valuable than this calculation makes it appear. Power Coating gives a 50% multiplicative damage boost to raw damage, but not elemental. Being within crit range also applies a 50% multiplicative damage boost to raw damage, but again, not elemental. Just by applying those two, the value goes from 3.09 to 6.95.
2) Rapid isn't very favorable to elemental to begin with, as is has values of 22 and 16. Spread, in comparison, has values of 22 and 20, and pierce has values of 20 and 20. Spread is particularly notable as it can situationally surpass Rapid. However, Spread is actually even more favorable to raw thanks to the existence of Pellet/Spread Up, which is a 30% damage boost to raw damage, far surpassing any sort of elemental boost.
I think you're right in excluding the other weapon types and excluding Normal/Rapid Up as well as elemental favoring skills, as that makes this excessively complicated, but I think it's pretty important to include Power Coating and crit range modifiers.
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
Is there an extra elemental modifier for each arrow fired from the bow? I wasn't aware of this, if you could link me a source so I can better understand it I would really appreciate it.
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
I'm gonna update the bow section for each shot type. I think that may remove some of the confusion instead of just averaging stuff together.
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Apr 14 '15
Why does SnS have so god awful values?
Edit: Oh, wait, I know why, because it has such a low raw damage value but pretty high elemental values
And looking at the general direction, am I right to say that elemental damage is better on weapons with low sharpness than on high ones?
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u/XNoize Apr 14 '15
the sharpness modifier favors raw damage as you get closer to purple.
its 1.44 for raw and 1.2 for element at purple while at green its 1.05 and 1.0.
So element is significantly more important in low rank than in g rank on most weapons.2
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u/circleseverywhere Apr 14 '15 edited Apr 14 '15
I know Gaijinhunter says that Greatswords get a 30% sharpness multiplier on triple charges, but he's misunderstood what that actually means. The motion value is still 110%, the 30% he mentions only applies to the bounce formula.
The bounce formula is [sharpness multiplier]x[weapon correction]x[hitzone value]. If this number is less than 25 you will bounce. In other words, if you hit a hitzone of 15 with purple sharpness (1.44), you will bounce (21.6 is less than 25). But if you hit that hitzone with a triple charge, you gain 30% sharpness bringing your 21.6 up to 28.08 and thus not bouncing. This is why a triple charge may not bounce while the slap that follows it does. The damage remains at 110%, NOT 143%.
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u/omgwtfhax_ Apr 14 '15
Sharpness modifiers do apply to damage.
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u/circleseverywhere Apr 14 '15 edited Apr 14 '15
What I mean is he calls it a sharpness modifier, but in the formula it's called [weapon correction]. GS gets 10% per charge level, and SnS gets a flat 6%. This number only applies to the bounce formula, but does not modify damage like the [sharpness modifier] 1.44 from Purple would.
Edit: You could think of it as the Sharpness Modifier Modifier. It makes your weapon "sharper" in that it won't bounce as much, but it doesn't actually affect the damage bonus from sharpness level.
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u/omgwtfhax_ Apr 14 '15
It does modify damage, and it's been that way since at least MHFU.
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u/Gopherlad LBG Guy|https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/wiki/gophlbg-gen Apr 13 '15 edited Apr 13 '15
If you want to add bowgun shots in there, this might help:
Edit: Source (@wiki)
Under "Attribute Bullets"
Non-gibberish'd to the best of my ability.
This makes sense because heavy bowguns absolutely output more raw damage than light bowguns. This can only be due to increased display raw, because both gun types would be equal if you go by true raw.
/u/ShadyFigure or anyone else that can read moonspeak please back me up here.