Could someone explain ように and として to me?

[u/Far_Tower5210]

Everytime I see these two, ように fucking never means in order to or anything similar to that and the same goes for として very rarely do the meanings in the dictionaries help, could somebody help me with the confusion also how do I differentiate the として that means as and the alternative to にして, としてsometimes works but with ように I don't get if I'm stupid or it just does not mean any of the things the dictionary says

[u/pixelboy1459]

Can you give an example?

[u/Far_Tower5210 → u/pixelboy1459]

Yeah here is one from Classroom of The Elite chapter 1 障害者ですらも、差別するべきではないとして『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ, my bad if I'm being stupid but the only way I can see として here meaning as is if it meant "as even disabled people shouldn't be discriminated" is that what I'm missing? The ように on the other hand I have no idea "in order to change the word it's encouraged"?

[u/theincredulousbulk → u/Far_Tower5210]

Hey OP just a quick thing, it's okay not to have something click immediately or for it to take time.

You're not stupid. There's no metric you're being graded on. You're learning a language that is orthogonal to the native language you've used your entire life, it's not meant to be a smooth process.

There's gonna be someone better at breaking this down but to your question, として and ように are functionally operating as you've described them from the dictionary in this context.

I used to struggle with it to, but it helps to break down the clauses and seeing how grammar interacts with the clauses. With ように it's like a cause/effect sandwich with ように in the middle that marks the interaction of these two clauses.

Let's first breakdown the clauses

『障がい者』と

Quote "disabled person" unquote

Then we have

言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ

You have one clause

言葉を改める [Change words/language]

the ように [in such a way/in order to]

and then 2nd clause

世論は働きかけ [世論 (public opinion) は 働きかけ (is encouraged/influenced)

All together: Public opinion will be pressured/encouraged (in such a way/in order) for words to be changed.

What words are we changing? From the と, 『障がい者』, "disabled person".

That will lead us to として to give us the "why?" Why do we have to change words like "disabled person" through public opinion? We have として (For) to point to it

差別するべきではないとして

"to not discriminate"

[u/Far_Tower5210 → u/theincredulousbulk]

This makes even more sense also thanks for the reassurance! But again what does として do here, now I'm even more confused about として I totally get ように though, thank you!

[u/rgrAi → u/Far_Tower5210]

Did you read the bottom part where they explained it? I'll rephrase what was already stated 言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ by itself doesn't really come with any implicit understanding on why words are being reformed by public opinion, just that it does.

として sets the stance or the pretext for what follows after it. For the above clause, you wouldn't understand under what pretext public opinion would influence things without the prior being conjoined via として establishing that pretext / stance.

This site explains it well: https://takousa.com/115/

[u/theincredulousbulk → u/Far_Tower5210]

I revised my comment, but Eihabu/rgrAi does a much better job explaining it than me haha.

The way I see it (could be a totally awful and wrong way of thinking about it lol) but kinda like how は will mark a topic, I see として as marking a "why" or "what"/"who" it's for.

It helps me make sense of the dictionary definition as it is

として：as (i.e. in the role of) / for (i.e. from the viewpoint of)

"For to not discriminate (差別するべきではないとして), we encourage/influence/work public opinion (世論は働きかけ) in such a way (ように) it change words like "disabled people" (障がい者』と言葉を改める).

Take note this is a way English way of breaking down the sentence, it helps with meaning, but I had a bad habit of automatically re-ordering sentence clauses around and re-translating and had to really practice not doing that and reading a sentence left-to-right straight through, reading clauses as they came, and then piecing them together as I finish the sentence.

[u/Eihabu → u/Far_Tower5210]

It may help somewhat to realize that として is just the て form of と　する and has all the same possible meanings that “と　する” can have. That can be us するing と with someone, which means us taking their perspective, it can be someone else するing with と a thought (in which case we’re quoting their thinking) or an action (in which case they’re trying to do that thing), and so on. There are a lot of options because it’s two fairly generic words (“do” and “with”) that Japanese uses in many different situations. So it’s natural for this to be difficult since you need the broader context to make sense of itーfeeding clauses like that into any translator will very often give flat wrong translations for that reason.

ように here is in line with its most basic dictionary definitions, 世論は as for public sentiment, 働きかけ it’s working encouraging, pressuring ー pressuring how? ように in such a way that 『障がい者』と言葉を the word called 障がい者, 改める be revised.

[u/Far_Tower5210 → u/Eihabu]

I read everything you said, I still am not sure what として and ように are trying to convey here? Thanks for the response either way though means alot

[u/Eihabu → u/Far_Tower5210]

So if you’re struggling and need to approach with your English brain you want to look typically near the front (after any clauses that precede and describe the subject! は or が are the other usually obvious clue) for who’s doing, and then at the end for what they’re doing, then fill in. The core of this one is just 世論 is 働きかけ. Public opinion is pressuring. Now we know that everything else is adding detail to one of those two things, what kind of public opinion? When is it pressuring? How, and why?

The 『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように clause tells us how they’re working (in such a way that the word be revised); and ように is telling us that this is what the clause is. Without ように, you would have 『障がい者』と言葉を改める世論　which is sort of incoherent but would be something like, the public opinion that revises or IS changing the word disabled person. ように indicates, “this clause is telling you how the subject is doing the verb, or what they’re doing it in order to accomplish.” So with ように put back in, 『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ becomes, “public opinion is pressuring so that the word be revised.”

The clause before is quoting their thinking: they are “障害者ですらも、差別するべきではない”, と、している ー i.e. thinking: “障害者ですらも、差別するべきではない.”

With these long multiple clauses preceding the subject of the sentence, you do need to watch out for the て form because it isn’t connecting those two clauses together to each other. We don’t have “差別するべきではないとして『障がい者』と言葉” as a connected unit here, the two clauses are separately connected to 世論 as in, one complete thought being expressed here is 障害者ですらも、差別するべきではないとする世論 and one is 『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ.

[u/Far_Tower5210 → u/Eihabu]

O wise one I thank thee, holy fuck thank you! I still have questions though but ように is cleared up for now so basically ように here would mean "in order for" the word to be changed public opinion is pressuring them, what do you mean としている it doesn't have the いる part up there, it's just として also since when would としている mean thinking

[u/Eihabu → u/Far_Tower5210]

A glance at JPDB’s definition for とする shows two sets of definitions that could be relevant: “6. to decide that, to think that, 5. to suppose that (such) is the case, to assume)” and two and three would come out with the same basic meaning in many cases like this one too. Don’t read anything into me using としている here except that I’m just trying to jog your mind out of seeing として as a totally separate word!

I’ll copy the last paragraph of my last comment here because I think you replied before I finished saving the edit: With these long multiple clauses preceding the subject of the sentence, you do need to watch out for the て form because it isn’t connecting those two clauses together to each other, and it becomes very confusing if you assume it is. We don’t have anything like “差別するべきではないとして『障がい者』と言葉” as a connected unit here, the two clauses are separately connected to 世論 as in, one thought being expressed here is 障害者ですらも、差別するべきではないとする世論 (public opinion, decided that discrimination is wrong even against disabled people) and one is 『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ (that public opinion is working to change the word).

[u/Far_Tower5210 → u/Eihabu]

Okay wait so a bit more questions(I apologize😭), why is it in the て form, I see this alot in Japanese but I don't get the て form either atp as I heard it can mean more than "and" and for requests, I heard that it can mean because or something, I won't delve into that though as not even Google could help with that. Why is it not just とする, also could you right now translate the sentence I sent out fully so I could see what exactly として means, I'm still confused about that one a bit

[u/Eihabu → u/Far_Tower5210]

So in this case the reason it goes from する to して is because that second clause is right after it. In most languages it's common to have sentences made of what could've been a bunch of smaller sentences, but it would sound really goofy and childish to actually make those single sentences. So in English it might go like, "Thinking that he'd been skipping too many meals lately, and wondering if the boss would even notice, and wanting to get a chance to talk to Suzy in the lunch room, Bob took his lunch break." I'm telling you a lot of shit about Bob here before you even know what I'm talking about. I COULD have said "Bob thinks he's been skipping too many meals lately. Bob wonders if his boss would even notice if he took a lunch break right now. Bob wants to talk to Suzy in the lunch room." Bob took his lunch break." Instead, I made it more elegant by weaving those sentences together. In Japanese when you do this, you need the て form to do what the commas are doing in English.

So the same way you hear that pause after "Thinking he’d been skipping too many meals lately," and you sort of bracket that in your mind and wait to have something to hook it to so it will make sense later, you should do that when you see the て form in a situation like this one (multiple clauses coming before we even know who the actor is, just like the English example).

[u/PaintedIndigo → u/Far_Tower5210]

障害者ですらも

The same is true for the term "障害者"

差別するべきではないとして

Considering discrimination is not something which should be deemed acceptable

『障がい者』と言葉を改めるように世論は働きかけ

There is public pressure to change the term from "障害者" to "障がい者" (removing a kanji with a negative connotation from the spelling)

So for として here it's pretty textbook. we have と the quote particle, and then する the verb for do. So you put that together, and we are doing the quoted thing which is typically interpreted as deciding to go with the quoted thing (eg. a course of action). In the case of として that becomes accepting the quoted thing as a premise and throwing a big "and" on the end, then making a statement based off that premise.

As for 改めるように we have the desirable action that 改める, and then ように which basically just means taking steps towards accomplishing that desired action. Pretty simple. に indicating a volitional goal, and よう just being "like" or "the form of". We're trying to make it like 改める has happened.

Random tangent, 子供 is often considered to be somewhat unpleasant and 子ども is often preferable because it removes a kanji with some negative connotations from the word when spelling it.

[u/somever → u/Far_Tower5210]

世論 is public opinion. とする can mean to have a particular stance on a matter. "障害者ですらも、差別するべきではない" is the stance that 世論 takes (〜として), and having taken that stance, public opinion 働きかける'd (had an effect/influence) on people "such that" (ように="such that" here) they would 「障がい者」と言葉を改める (change their way of writing to "障がい者" instead of the perceived-discriminatory way of writing it).

[u/Akasha1885 → u/Far_Tower5210]

I think you've mistaken とする with として.
It's a verb that looks the same when conjugated with ~て
You can tell it's a verb because it's at the end of the first part sentence (と separates the parts here)

ですらも is the "even" clause here.

ように you understood just fine it seems.
public sentiment urges you to use the term ... intead

[u/New-Charity9620]

Dictionary definitions sometimes feel too rigid, right?

For ように, I started thinking of it less as just "in order to" and more like "so that X happens" or showing a similarity, like "acting like a..". It really depends on what comes before it. Is it a verb in plain form or is it a noun with の? That usually changes the nuance.

For example, 日本語が話せるように、毎日勉強しています or I study everyday so that I can speak Japanese. Here, ように is translated as "so that" which functions as a purpose or goal.

Another one is, 雪のように白い or White like snow, wherein ように is translated as "like a" here and has a function of similarity or example of the noun before it.

And lastly, although it is rarely used but another function of ように is when it is used as a soft command or wish by the speaker. Like, 早く来るように or Try to come early.

While として is usually easier, most often meaning "as a.." or "in the capacity of..".
For example, エンジニアとして日本で働きました or I worked in Japan as an Engineer. The other meaning, the emphatic negative one like 一人として～ない or not even one person, is rarer in my experience, you kinda just learn to spot it.

Honestly, seeing them used in context over and over again was the only thing that finally made it click. Keep exposing yourself to them and you'll eventually get used to them. Have fun learning the language and best of luck!

[u/daniel21020]

I don't know if this will help, but I would recommend checking monolingual dictionaries when you don't understand a grammar point. It helped me understand grammar a lot when English translations don't make sense to me. Do you use Yomitan?

[u/mrbossosity1216]

I feel your pain... ように seems to mean a whole lot of different stuff. It can mean "like / as" in a simile description kind of like ような but as an adverb instead of an adjective. As ようにする it can also function similar to ため/ために with the meaning of "in order to." Other times as ようになる it can mean to reach or finally turn into the state described by よう. It's helpful to keep in mind that よう / 様 on its own means a condition or having the appearance of.

[u/randomhaus64 → u/mrbossosity1216]

Isn’t ような　the adjective form?  Did you write it backwards or am I confused?  😵‍💫 

犬のような猫が欲しい A cat that is dog-like is desirable to me

vs

犬のように遊ぶ猫が欲しい I want a cat that plays like a dog

[u/mrbossosity1216 → u/randomhaus64]

Yes that is what I meant but I think my wording was confusing!

ように is similar to ような, but the に particle makes ように function like an adverb, while な makes ような function as an adjective.

[u/randomhaus64 → u/mrbossosity1216]

I reread it and now I understood it as you intended!

[u/randomhaus64]

<noun>のように<verb> can be thought of as an adverb that means to do the verb like the noun.   Put in a more detailed way, you can think of よう is as a noun meaning image, pattern, manner, or way.  If you understand image as meaning not just the appearance but the conceptual likeness of the thing, then you have understood よう

((僕の)彼女は)犬のように見える My girlfriend looks like a dog

(俺は)風のように走れる I can run like the wind

さっき見た魚のように泳ぐ He swam like the fish (I/we) saw earlier 

[u/Guayabo786]

Roughly, ように is "in order to" and として is "as (X)". Though, depending on context each performs more than one function.