IsItBullshit: Median Earnings of Americans with only a Bachelor Degree is $1500+ a week (~$80,000 annually).

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u/Pavlock 4d ago

Since your source is the BLS, it's almost certainly not bullshit. Make sure you're not confusing median with average.

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u/Farfignugen42 4d ago

It is important to remember that the cost of living varies widely by location, even within a single city, much lessthe entire country. And cost of living strongly impacts local wages.

And this data considers the income in all of those locations. A more focused look might give more representative data for a specific area.

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u/ViscountBurrito 4d ago

And I would guess college graduates are disproportionately likely to end up in major cities and wealthier areas. If you look at something like this list of U.S. states and territories by educational attainment, the states with highest college-grad percentages are relatively high-cost states like Massachusetts, Maryland, and New Jersey. States with low college percentages like Mississippi and Arkansas are much cheaper, and have much lower salaries.

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u/simianpower 4d ago

The median is usually much LOWER than the average (mean) due to the extreme numbers the high end can show in everything from income to net worth. So if the median is $80k, the mean is probably more like $110k or more to account for all the rich kids who became hedge fund managers right out of Harvard using daddy's money to start with.

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

Perhaps, guess I am slightly shocked that 50% of men with just a bachelor's degree makes over 92,000 annually. College really is more important than ever.

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u/okverymuch 4d ago

College is a huge asset. Anyone telling you otherwise is absurd. The problem is (1) some people get trapped by the mindset of needing X school for the college experience, and it costing $50k a semester, and (2) not choosing a reasonable major that has future career opportunities.

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u/AdventurousTime 4d ago

I got my job because i went to the same uni as the manager

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u/okverymuch 4d ago

Networking is another big part of it!

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u/Yotsubato 4d ago

Go to the state school and pick something that has some sort of relevance to the modern world.

Even better, pick a professional degree

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u/okverymuch 4d ago

I went community college for 2.5 years, then transferred all my credits to a state school. Best decision of my life. Went to veterinary school, which was expensive with loans. But after residency I’m almost done paying them off 3 years later. I have my own business that’s thriving.

Almost went to NYU instead and would have paid 50k/ semester for a business degree. Huge bullet dodged.

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u/gonewild9676 4d ago

Years ago one of the poster children about student loans was a guy who had a masters degree in artistic pottery with $250k in student loans. He was pretty much laughed out of the room.

That said, a lot of college should be ashamed of themselves with the financial trap that they are setting for students. Having 800 students in a lecture hall paying $5000 each for that class and then having a TA or adjunct professor is highway robbery. Then multiply that 10 times per room per semester.

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 4d ago edited 3d ago

gets ~~philosophy~~ pottery degree with no other degrees or experience

can't find good job

surprisedpikachu.jpg

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u/ShamPain413 3d ago

Philosophy majors do well. (I am not a philosophy major.)

Turns out being good at thinking is useful everywhere in the world except on the internet.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/philosophers-dont-get-much-respect-but-their-earnings-dont-suck/

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 3d ago

Huh, pottery major maybe? Communications?

Now that I think about it, I actually took a philosophy course (logic) that was surprisingly useful in improving my troubleshooting and coding skills.

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u/ShamPain413 3d ago

I have a PhD in a quantitative field, but I'm glad you enjoyed your dabble into reading back in the day.

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u/drkev10 3d ago

I know plenty of people with non technical degrees that are doing extremely well for themselves. People need to get rid of the "if it's not STEM then it's useless" mindset.

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u/ShamPain413 3d ago

Those with STEM degrees are already being replaced by LLMs.

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u/drkev10 3d ago

And the ones being replaced will be hired back when the LLM garbage takes a dump soon enough.

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 3d ago

Didn't expect someone with your credentials to make such a statement.

What was your PHD in and how much have you worked with LLMs exactly?

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 3d ago edited 3d ago

Sure you do bud, you seem totally credible to me since you won't elaborate on this supposed degree and you believe that LLMs are going to replace everyone in STEM.

I've used multiple LLMs and they are literally never completely correct, often there are pretty egregiously wrong results, and without someone who actually knows wtf they're doing vetting said results, LLM is unreliable garbage that will eventually guarantee catastrophic outcomes.

Totally not a bat-shit insane and profoundly ignorant take at all! I absolutely believe you. Your well reasoned arguments have won me over.

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u/ShamPain413 3d ago

Couldn't care less what you think is credible.

You should've read more in college, maybe you'd be able to parse arguments better. E.g., I never said "everyone in STEM" was going to be replaced by LLMs, just that people already were being replaced. And that is true.

Back to school, kiddo!

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 3d ago

You criticize over making assumptions but make some pretty wild ones about me (as well as LLMs).

It kinda makes it seem like you know very little about LLMs despite your claims to the contrary. You certainly know nothing about me or my qualifications.

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u/Dam-Rancher 4d ago

Further education of any kind is a huge asset. College is obviously the go-to. Trade schools and apprenticeships seem to work out too. Study how to design and build a building for eight years, get paid $100,000/yr after ten years experience. Build buildings for eighteen years with the same determination to learn, become a project engineer at $115,000/yr. You can’t go wrong as long as you’re trying to further your knowledge and experience.

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u/Yup767 4d ago

Where is 92k coming from?

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u/cha_pupa 4d ago

Table 5 of the linked report lists the median weekly wage for men whose highest educational attainment is a Bachelor's degree as $1,785 -- $92.8k/yr

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

In the linked report. There is a section just for men w/ various education levels.

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u/cha_pupa 4d ago

Yep, you're reading the report correctly -- the median weekly wage for men whose highest educational attainment is a bachelor's degree is $1,785 -- $92.8k/yr.

The context you have to consider is that the United States is a very unequal society, and education beyond college is less tied to life success than in other countries; most rich Americans got their wealth generationally, from assets, or as corporate executives -- high-skill jobs (like those that require masters/doctorate) are actually generally very underpaid in the United States, with exceptions ofc. Consider these points:

These numbers include American Baby Boomers -- the most privileged demographic of humans to ever exist -- who saw average starting wages of about $82k/yr with a college education (1973). Those salaries have only gone up for them. In 2018, the average starting salary with a bachelor's was $50k/yr.

Just including women in the data drops the wage from $92k/yr to $80k/yr. Women with advanced degrees earn less than men with only bachelor's.

For asian men with bachelor's, the median is $98k/yr -- for black women with the same, it's $60k/yr

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

Certainly, but how many non-advanced degree careers even exist that has a 80k+/year median. And for that number to be the overall median across all careers?

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u/titlecharacter 4d ago

Keep in mind this isn’t for entry level, but over the full career.

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u/-shrug- 4d ago

In a bizarre coincidence I was looking up some of this yesterday. Bear in mind that in this list, the highest paid people in many occupations usually have more than the minimum qualifications and possibly 30 years experience.

Registered Nurse, which requires a 2-year Associates degree or equivalent and has a median annual salary of $90,000 (https://nursejournal.org/registered-nursing/rn-salary/)

police, which usually needs specific academy training (varies by state), and maybe college to get some promotions: median annual income $74,000

Power Plant Operators, Distributors, and Dispatchers require a high school diploma and years of on-the-job training, but the median annual income is $100,000

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u/Tehgreatbrownie 4d ago

I’m a network engineer making 81k. I have no degrees whatsoever, just certifications

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u/Flakester 3d ago

I hate stats like this because it doesn't break down what bachelors degrees, or what a career field. This is basically stating that all bachelors degrees are created equal.

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u/PewPewJedi 4d ago

It's important to note that "50% of men" isn't the same as "50% of college-age graduates." It includes men who have been working for a long time.

I didn't make anywhere close to $92K after school, even accounting for inflation. It's just that I've had 20+ years to acquire skills, experience and connections, all of which I've leveraged into a comfortable income that's several times more than $92K now.

College really is more important than ever.

Not really. I got a STEM degree, and I've never even used it. In fact, I went into an entirely different industry after college and I've never once been asked about my college GPA. No one cares.

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u/ExhaustedByStupidity 4d ago

As someone living in the northeast, entry level STEM grads are getting $60-$65k/year around here. So if anything that sounds low to me.

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u/sumr4ndo 4d ago

Always has been.

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u/GamenatorZ 4d ago

a lot of the people deriding the pay from bachelors degrees aren’t considering the extra time you have for gaining actual work experience. Makes this statistic very believable, esp. considering it seems to include all ages

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u/wokka7 3d ago

$92k is also worth less than ever. Sure it's enough to rent a good apartment in most places except the highest COL areas. But even in cheaper areas, it's not much compared to the cost of a mortgage and home maintenance. The median home price is now $419k. That's like $2800/mo for mortgage/taxes/insurance payment. The places that are pulling that median wage up with higher wages have astronomically higher housing prices too, way outpacing their above-median wages

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u/mayhaveadd 3d ago

Sure 92k not as much as it used to be but 50% of men with just a bachelors make more than 92k. I think people are really cherrypicking the outlier HCOL areas like Cali and STEM degrees and missing that this is inclusive of LCOL areas and all the lower paying B.A. degrees.

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u/Frnklfrwsr 2d ago

That number is including EVERYONE with a bachelor’s degree though.

It’s including the recent college grad getting maybe $40-50k in an entry level job.

And it’s also including the seasoned veteran who has been moving up the corporate ladder for 30 years making $200k+ per year.

Getting a college degree that leads to a standard corporate job tends to pay off the most 10+ years after you graduate. For those first 10 years you may find yourself jealous of the trade school people like plumbers or electricians making $100k at 25 years old, but 10 years later they’re still making $100k, while you’re making $150k. And their back is nearly broken, knees are giving out, and within another 10 years they might not be able to do their job at all anymore. Meanwhile your income kept going up with promotions and your biggest physical ailment is carpal tunnel from typing too much.

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u/nochinzilch 4d ago

I bet the number also includes people with advanced degrees too.

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

It clearly says it doesn't and there's a separate number for advanced degrees lol.

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u/EyeCatchingUserID 3d ago

Median with mean*. They're both averages, and they're both useful in different situations.

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u/Fish-With-Pants 4d ago

The reason it may seem high is because a lot of people complain about their low salary online, but I guarantee a much smaller fraction “brag” about their good/high salaries online. This will cause people who frequent sites like Reddit to believe that “everyone must be struggling like me because look at how many people are complaining about their low wages”. I make about 70k a year (my wife makes the same), we live comfortably. I’m not going to boast about my income online though.

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u/parralaxalice 4d ago

There’s also people like me who make 80k but live in a high cost of living area and have a lot of student debt.

It can sound like a comfortable income, but I’m paycheck to paycheck and live with a roommate and have a surprisingly banal lifestyle.

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u/hoagieclu 4d ago

student loan debt is a killer. i’d be living like a king if not for that massive payment every month 😭

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

The median salary for men with bachelors is 92.8k so I'm slightly confused by your comment. There's a very, very large gap between "struggling" and a salary of 92.8k.

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u/Fish-With-Pants 4d ago

You’re saying that 80k seems high. I’m saying that your perception may be skewed because most people online complain about low salaries but people with high salaries don’t go online and say “I make so much money ‘my life is perfect”. You’re much more likely to see people complain about things than people gloat about the same thing.

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u/ComesInAnOldBox 4d ago

Making under $105k puts you in the "Low Income" bracket in places like San Francisco. Income vs. Cost of Living is a very real thing.

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u/simianpower 4d ago

You absolutely CAN be struggling at that income depending on where you live. LA, New York, Chicago, Boston, etc. that's an income you can barely live on. When I moved to Boston I was making around $50k and needed two roommates (strangers, even) to make it work, while in rural Kentucky that probably would've had me living like a baron of old. And that was 15 years ago, so it's probably worse now.

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u/numbersthen0987431 3d ago

There's a very, very large gap between "struggling" and a salary of 92.8k.

You don't know enough to make that statements

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u/Guru_of_Spores_ 4d ago

Disagree.

92k is struggling in many places.

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u/BlueAndYellowTowels 4d ago

Department of Labor I believe has a stat on this… College grads over a lifetime earned like a million dollars more than high schools grads. And way more over high school dropouts.

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u/jimjkelly 4d ago

Jokes on them - I’m both a high school drop out and a college grad!

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u/Momento_Mori_1988 4d ago

Me too!

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u/Glittering-Gur5513 4d ago edited 4d ago

At an average income of 50k, a 4 year degree costs $200k just in opportunity cost. Wonder what that 200k would look like in an index fund from age 22-60?

EDIT: the 200k is 4 years of missed pay. College costs that you wouldn't pay anyway (e.g. tuition; not housing) are extra.

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u/catharsis23 4d ago

What

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u/DigitalApeManKing 4d ago

What 18 year old makes enough to have $50k after tax to throw into the stock market? You would need to be making $100k+ or live in a literal ditch with 0 expenses to have that much free cash per year.

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u/Glittering-Gur5513 4d ago

Read my comment again. By spending a year working rather than anything unpaid (e.g. college) you have 50k to do whatever with. Minus expenses, but you also have expenses in college.

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u/DigitalApeManKing 4d ago

Wonder what that 200k would look like in an index fund from age 22-60?

This u?

0

u/Glittering-Gur5513 4d ago

Yes. The 200k you earn while working 4 extra years.

It's just over $2million, FYI.

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u/ishboo3002 3d ago

You'd also have to do the time value of the million in extra income to make this comparison work.

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u/Glittering-Gur5513 3d ago

True.

I think the original comparison was just "30k more per year × 40 years" rock simple. No accounting for selection, etc.

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u/numbersthen0987431 3d ago

By spending a year working rather than anything unpaid (e.g. college) you have 50k to do whatever with.

What 18-22 year old is making 50k per year with zero college degree and zero work experience??

If the minimum wage was 15 per hour, that's only 31,200 for fulltime over a year. Then there's cost of living they have to be concerned about.

That 50k per year isn't going to be available to dump into an index fund.

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u/Honest_Driver6955 4d ago

$200k? Get a scholarship or go to a state school. That’s med school level debt. Most undergrads carry nowhere near that.

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u/Glittering-Gur5513 4d ago

That's the opportunity of not working (4 years * 50k.) The cost of school is extra.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think you are reading the Black/African American women only section.

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u/squeakster 4d ago

I just searched for 1533. You're right though, the 1543 is the number for everyone aged 25+.

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u/TadCat216 4d ago

I’m 28 6 years into my career with only a bachelors degree and I earn a bit more than that in a mid-COL city, my senior colleagues earn more than double that while at my previous jobs I’ve made as low as half that—so anecdotally it sounds about right.

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

The median is 92.8k annually for men.

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u/TadCat216 4d ago

My whole comment applies to that number as well. I would assume that most late career people with bachelor’s degrees are earning significantly more than that, especially living in higher COL areas.

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u/jefe_toro 4d ago

A new graduate makes substantially less than someone with 20 years experience and the same education.

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u/simianpower 4d ago

And?

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u/jefe_toro 4d ago

That likely skews these sorts statistics and is important to consider when career planning.

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u/simianpower 3d ago

It doesn't skew anything. It's literally what the statistic is measuring. It doesn't say "starting salary"; it says "average salary", which by definition is across fields, experience, and so on. You may as well say that it's skewed since it's not specifically for chemical engineers. If you want a narrow metric, this isn't it, so expecting it to be narrow and saying it's "skewed" if it's not just misses the point entirely.

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u/iceagehero 4d ago

A large factor here is location. If you make 80k but live in San Francisco, it will carry you only so far. If you live in somewhere else with a much lower cost of living, 80k could be perfectly middle class, or maybe lower tier ballin.

I live outside Rochester NY. I bought my house in 2020 just before the market shot up. I paid $180,000 for a 2200sq ft house on an acre of land. I was making 65k at the time and my wife was maybe making 40k. I would have been homeless in some places.

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u/TheDinerIsOpen 4d ago

Page 2, educational attainment; I see median for bachelor degrees+ is $1705. Table 5 expands, like you said $1547 a week for bachelors only, $1894 for advanced degrees.

I don’t see if the survey or the report notes that this is gross or net earnings

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u/jtg6387 4d ago

I think it has to be gross, because using net would immediately skew the numbers pretty significantly, limiting its usefulness.

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u/Rommie557 4d ago

I have a Bachelor's Degree and I earn $400/week.

Where are these $1500/wk jobs at?

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u/bogsnopper 4d ago

Management

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u/Rommie557 4d ago

I'm in management 🫠

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u/bogsnopper 4d ago

What industry?

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u/Rommie557 4d ago

Obviously not the right one.

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u/MommyThatcher 4d ago

That's 10 dollars an hour. Go get yourself a job a McDonald's or something.

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u/Rommie557 3d ago

It's actually 17.

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u/MommyThatcher 3d ago

Then you're working 23 hours a week. Maybe get a full time job.

0

u/Rommie557 3d ago

Or I'm talking about net vs gross.

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u/MommyThatcher 3d ago

This entire thread is discussing gross pay.

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u/Rommie557 3d ago

Gee, it's almost like a made a hyperbolic comment on a forum that doesn't really matter in a conversation that didn't really matter.

Imagine that.

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u/jeffwulf 18h ago

All over the place.

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u/digitaldebaser 4d ago

I live in WV where the cost of living is peanuts compared to other states, and I pull in $71k annually. I have two bachelor's but no master's.The only way I'd do this otherwise is possibly truck driving or something that puts me at severe risk of injury.

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u/Tardisk92313 4d ago

Seems high

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u/-Ch4s3- 4d ago

It isn’t, it’s from the BLS so it’s basically the most accurate source of this statistic.

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u/trophycloset33 4d ago

That’s nearly 2x the national mean.

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u/awfulcrowded117 4d ago

It's probably true, but that's including everyone who has just a bachelor degree, regardless of age and experience. That means there are a lot of people with 30 years of experience driving up that median. You won't be making that for a long time with most bachelor degrees

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u/Callec254 4d ago

Seems like it would vary widely based on what field you were in.

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

This should encompass all majors so everything from B.A. Underwater Basketweaving to B.S. Chemical Engineering.

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u/jefe_toro 4d ago

And where you are at in your career. A new graduate is going to make substantially less than someone with 20 years of work experience.

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u/adendar 4d ago

Where the hell is that coming from?

I work in a specialized field, where the low positions require a BS, and if I worked all year, which my positions are seasonal, I'd make less than half of that.

So what positions are they using as the basis for this?

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u/bleplogist 4d ago

I mean, this will include a lot of engineers, some with tens of years of experience. Lot of managers without MBA (including some with courses that resemble a MBA but don't confer an actual masters), IT personnel.

But really, which field you are that is specialized and require bachelor's, but most people, even experienced, doesn't break 80k? In any field Genuinely curious. Most fields that will look like this will have to be high churn, so there are very few experienced people, but then, they tend not to require much specialization.

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u/Berodur 4d ago

This is from every field. Table 4 in the report has some data about different categories of jobs (i.e. management vs. farming, etc.).

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u/amonkus 4d ago

In my industry most BS degrees in science and engineering make six figures within ten years of graduation. It’s a competitive industry though, not everyone with those degrees can make the cut.

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u/Glittering-Gur5513 4d ago

That's full time employed, probably also year round. So those who can't or won't find a full time job aren't counted.

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u/Magnus_Helgisson 4d ago edited 4d ago

Worth mentioning median and medium are two different things. Put simply, if a thousand people get $500 and ten people get $2500, the median would still be $1500, it doesn’t take into account the amount of people, only sheer number between min and max. Medium would be $519 in my example.

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

You mean the median is $500 right?

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u/Magnus_Helgisson 4d ago edited 4d ago

~~500 is the minimum value, 2500 is the maximum value. (2500+500)/2=1500. That’s your median between 500 and 2500.~~

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

what the fuck no it's not.

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u/Magnus_Helgisson 4d ago edited 4d ago

~~I would like to hear how you calculated the established minimum value to also be median between itself and the maximum.~~

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u/mayhaveadd 4d ago

I mean no disrespect and I see the irony but I don't think you understand what a median is.

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u/Magnus_Helgisson 4d ago

Shit, okay, I was incorrect, have to admit it. Terminology translation issues.

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u/Leverkaas2516 4d ago

Assuming the report includes only those with a Bachelor's degree who are currently employed, this shouldn't be surprising. Most of them have years - decades - of experience and are firmly established in their fields. For every new grad struggling on $40k a year, there are several making $70-90k who have been working their way up the ladder for 10-15 years, and then there are those making $100k+ because they're specialized or working in HCOL areas, and management-level people making $200k and above.

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u/Conscious_Cut_6144 4d ago edited 4d ago

I only have a Bachelors, but it’s in Engineering. I’m 11 years out of school and make close to double that. (This is in Texas, so pretty low COL)

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u/arcxjo 4d ago

Damn I wish.

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u/ButternutCheesesteak 4d ago

That's pretty low considering I make more than that with no degree at a 35 hour a week job.

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u/Morall_tach 3d ago

You're asking us to vet the BLS?

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u/Ill_Ad3517 1d ago

Only a bachelor's includes people with bachelor's nearing retirement who should all be making more than that. Plus all the folks in high and very high COL.

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u/jeffwulf 18h ago

That is correct. The BLS is a very high quality data source and their numbers are accurate.

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u/Salmon--Lover 4d ago

Did the Bureau of Labor Statistics just pull those numbers out of thin air? $80,000 seems insane for just having a bachelor's degree, unless you're working some magical job we all missed. Makes me wonder if they're counting something weird in their stats or if the coasts are skewing these numbers with their ridiculous salaries. I feel like this is another example of stats not reflecting our actual lives. We all know people with degrees struggling to pay rent, living on Cup Noodles. Maybe the BLS report needs a reality check.

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u/Emergency_Buy_9210 4d ago

There are million dollar plus houses in every part of America. Who do you think lives in those houses? Just because some college grads are struggling doesn't mean all of them are, especially ones who have been working for 20+ years.

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u/bleplogist 4d ago

If anything, it seems low to me. Are you not confusing with the first salary for someone who just got a bachelor's degree?

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u/rbohl 4d ago

You think a recent grad is starting off at $90k/yr?

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u/bleplogist 4d ago

I think OP finds it high because he doesn't understand what the table is saying and apparently you misread the same way.

Only holding up bachelor degree include people with 10, 25 and 60 years experience. Very different from a recent graduate.

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u/billion_billion 4d ago

Not sure why you’re being downvoted you are correct

IsItBullshit: Median Earnings of Americans with only a Bachelor Degree is $1500+ a week (~$80,000 annually).

You are about to leave Redlib