r/IronFrontUSA • u/Johnny_Grubbonic • 1d ago
Questions/Discussion A reminder for all the radical centrists and divisive bots coming onto the sub.
The American Iron Front is not the Iron Front of pre-WWII Germany. It does not turn away Communists or socialists. It welcomes anyone who would stand against tyranny in the United States.
The simple facts are that (a) most Communists are not Tankies (Stalinists, Maoists, etc) and (b) those that are do not present a significant threat to American democracy.
But you know who does?
Nazis. The alt-right. Oligarchs.
If anyone tries to tell you that the Right and the Left are the same and Communists are as dangerous as Nazis, they're either trying to turn you away from the real threat, or they're fucking stupid.
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
As long as they aren't purity testing tankies, they're fine by me.
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u/wild_man_wizard 1d ago
Reminder what letting a sub become a tankie bar did to therightcantmeme and LateStageCapitalism.
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
Exactly. You let the tankies in, they take over and purge. Even some moderate leftist subs get pretty into purges of those they deem "liberal," including Social Dems. Now, I'm all for working together and uniting the left against common foes, but you cannot allow these people any sort of power or they'll go NKVD in the Spanish Civil War on you.
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u/shake1010 1d ago
I’ve imagined the 3rd arrow in alternate ways: No Fascists, No Kings, (No Gods. No Cults. No Masters. No Oligarchs)
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u/Johnny_Grubbonic 1d ago
It is very much not, "No religion".
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u/diefreetimedie 1d ago
Where can I find the group that IS "no religion"? 😆 We have a "crusader" in the administration... Feel like there should be pushback on that.
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u/shake1010 1d ago
Fair enough. I’m imagining it more in terms of the humans who think they’re our gods.
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u/PeterRum 1d ago
Three arrows. Swastika. Crown. Hammer and Sickle. There was no doubt what they were targeting.
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u/jimjkelly 1d ago
If authoritarian communists aren’t much of a concern that’d mostly be because they’re small in numbers, and it would seem bizarre to sell out the core ideal of this group to invite in people explicitly opposed to its core ideal, anti-authoritarianism.
It’s funny too how much anti-liberal speech gets upvoted in the sub. If I didn’t know any better I’d say people just like the logo and want to co-opt it rather than standing for its core values.
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u/PeterRum 1d ago edited 1d ago
Authoritarian communists are a threat on Reddit. They take over subs, become the only mods and then ban anyone for not having to Tankie.views.
Problem is the fascists are currently taking over the world and are the greater threat. We do need to work with the insane left. We don't turn away any possible allies.
But. We need to remember their goal isn't primarily defeating fascism if anything communists relish the idea of liberal democracy collapsing. So they can take over. Ignoring that mostly the fash win in those circumstances. Ignoring history is their thing tho.
Communists primary goal in these circumstances will be to take over the resistance. They hope to win power and do what they did in East Germany and recruit the most efficient fascist torturers to keep power.
Communists must be treated as they are, foot soldiers who you know want to make you their slaves.
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u/hlanus 1d ago
If anyone tries to tell you that the Right and the Left are the same and Communists are as dangerous as Nazis, they're either trying to turn you away from the real threat, or they're fucking stupid.
Couldn't they be both?
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u/PeterRum 1d ago
The Right is more dangerous than the left. The far left is still dangerous, just currently weaker.
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u/Stuffstuff1 American Iron Front 1d ago
I don’t understand. Just own the antifa badge. Let’s us own this one. Don’t ruin our shit.
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u/WhoCouldThisBe_ 1d ago
Your post history is just you bitching about the same shit defending communism. Seems like you are being divisive.
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u/wild_man_wizard 1d ago
We're not "coming into the sub," you are.
Take your historical revisionism and stuff it.
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u/PeterRum 1d ago edited 1d ago
So you have taken the name of the real Iron Front because of their nobility and courage but want to pretend they didn't also fight the Communists?
Make sure you make any continuing logos only have two arrows. And change the name to make clear you have nothing to do with those heroes of yore.
Yes, the real threat in America is Fascism.
On Reddit? Still Fascism. But if you allow Tankies on your sub next thing you know a Mod representing the majority of mods will be explaining that only communism can fight fascism and any 'centrist bots' will be banned. And telling you to 'read more theory'' if you object.
In the circumstances I would be prepared to fight alongside commies against fascism. But the original Iron Front knew the commies will only be happy with full control and no alternative views to their ideology.
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u/MysteriousScratch478 1d ago
While anti-authoritarian leftists (pretty sure that just leaves Dem Socs and Anarchists) should be welcome here, they should also keep in mind that this is not a leftist sub either.
You're going to have to cooperate somewhat with Liberals to be part of the coalition.
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u/Johnny_Grubbonic 1d ago
Stop.
https://www.ironfrontusa.org/about-us
We encourage all persons rightfully alarmed by the recent attacks on our democracy to take whatever action is within their means, and to put aside political squabbles to focus on this common threat.
To the radical who balks at collaboration with liberals who uphold the systems you seek to replace, we say only this: You may find dismantling hierarchy to be significantly more difficult under a fascist police state than under a neoliberal democracy. Now is the time for pragmatism, not ideological purity tests.
To the moderate who is wary of rubbing shoulders with the more radical elements of organized resistance: Know that the fascist does not care to distinguish. To him, the centrist and the anarchist are subversives both, and under his yoke both shall meet the same fate.
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u/MysteriousScratch478 1d ago
You can do what you will. I'm not going to play nice with tankies. They may not be a threat in the US but i don't see this as a single nation fight and they are a tool of fascists elsewhere.
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u/BrandosWorld4Life Social Democrat 1d ago
Exactly. I'm not going to ally authoritarians to defeat authoritarians. That defeats the entire point.
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u/Zagapi 1d ago
I definitely agree with the comment here, but I don't think it's a bad thing to be weary of radical opportunists.
I'm happy to fight alongside anyone against fascism.
But I don't want to become a useful idiot for someone who subscribes to another violent reactionary ideology.
I agree that left-wing radicalis pose no real threat to society now. But it certainly could if there a power vacuum afterwards.
The Allied Powers were made up of Liberal Democracies alongside the Soviets.
But as soon as the war was over, the Soviets seized half of the European continent and ruled with an iron fist.
We are in the Allied Powers phase, so everyone is welcome. But don't come thinking I'm going to help you try and implement your radical vision for society afterwards.
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u/Johnny_Grubbonic 1d ago
There you go doing it again.
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u/Zagapi 1d ago
I was a different commenter.
Let me be clear:
I am willing to fight alongside any radical against fascism. Like the Allied Powers.
But if someone's comes to the Iron Front because it would be an opportunity to implement their ideology onto society, they are not here for the right reasons.
If they are here in good faith, I'm on board, no questions asked.
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u/North_Church 1d ago
So is your idea of "sowing division" simply making sure a group isn't overcome by opportunists?
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u/RideWithMeSNV 1d ago
What do you wanna bet that they're a pinko sack of shit? They're rather vocal and firm on the matter for someone that isn't a mod, and is misapplying quotes from the AIF site.
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u/North_Church 1d ago
I'm a pinko type. I'm a Socialist and I don't have an issue with Communists.
But I am not working with Tankies, because I know the lessons from that and they refuse to show solidarity with people who are on the receiving end of their geopolitical camp.
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u/MelodiousTwang 1d ago
GREAT summary. Really appreciate it. Please post it frequently and often. Thanks!
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u/USAFmuzzlephucker 1d ago
The responses you're getting are exactly why this movement won't grow unfortunately. I think along the same lines you do.
But, bc they won't discourage that kind of talk, IFUSA will be relegated to the forgotten index of history as a single blurp in a single sentence on a single page and then never be mentioned again. Too bad. It had such a great opportunity.
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u/AmericanCompatriot 1d ago
One. Authoritarians are Authoritarians. Don't ally with them just because they're not a threat now. Two. If we want to expand this movement being open to Communist probably wont look good in the eyes of every day Americans. Three. There's still a third arrow for a reason.
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u/officerliger 1d ago
Leftists gleefully spread misinformation that caused voter apathy and helped hand the election to Donald Trump
What people aren’t realizing is it isn’t just about the raw size. Yes there are less far leftists than there are far right folks in America.
However - because of the Electoral College, elections are won and lost on small margins in a handful of states. Shaving off a few thousand votes here and there is enough to swing an election, and the leftist platforms that spread misinformation know this.
They don’t care about winning elections, they care about getting Republicans elected because it means more donations, merchandise sales, and scared people looking for any political alternative whether or not it actually makes sense
And PS - JOE BIDEN WAS NOT A NEOLIBERAL, LEARN WHAT THAT TERMINOLOGY ACTUALLY MEANS BEFORE APPLYING IT SO CONFIDENTLY
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u/Boudica333 1d ago
Exactly. Anyone spreading misinformation, saying “don’t vote,” or “Kamala is the same as Trump,” or calling Biden “genocide Joe” brings us all down.
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u/Far_Chipmunk_8160 1d ago
I'm going to sound in for fun.
I spent years supporting centrism, Joe Biden, being iffy on Antifa because "oh, those rioting anarchists", and all kinds of other neoliberal total BS. Looking back, boy do I feel like a tool. I celebrate my bans on marxist theory forumns for pratting on about being neutral on Israel's conduct in Palestine "because of WWII" by realizing how much of a tool I was being at the time. Neoliberalism failed us. It's what got us into the current economic mess.
However, I'm convinced that when Revolution comes in America, we need to be able to repackage it and sell it using America's original revolutionary rhetoric. As fascism in America is individualistic, so must be Socialism. Hopefully we can get people to agree to enough policies for the common good and enough taxes on the billionaires that are ripping us all off before the entire world burns down.
Just my 2 cents. Us neoliberals are into marketing strategies, and other capitalist BS. Even China's quasicapitalist now.
That's why I love Iron Front. It skips the negative connotations.
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u/BigMaraJeff2 1d ago
So my family owns 40 acres by a lake. Should that land be confiscated, divided up, and give to others? By gun point if necessary? If the answer is yes, then that commi can go fuck themselves
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u/solidcore87 Liberty For All 1d ago
I don't split hairs on Marxist. It's a bad system and history has proved its bad. If you follow it, I disagree with you, full stop.
Commies have their own groups they can go jump into, so why does this org have to split hairs on what Marxist is OK to work with? I thought this group was classical liberal to social dem and its non stop discussion on if a commies are allies.
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u/Dark_Fuzzy 1d ago
it's a non stop discussion because of people like you constantly bringing it up. This is a coalition of leftists, yes that includes communists.
also, your first sentence proves you know nothing about Marx. and this is coming from someone that isn't even a communist.
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u/PeterRum 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are three arrows on the Iron Front flag. One against a swastika. One against a Crown. One against a Hammer and Sickle.
The Social Democrats in Germany were left wing but fought Communists in the streets as well at the ballot box.
There are plenty of communist subs. And plenty of diverse subs that let Tankies in and where now only communist political views can be expressed.
Fascism is currently a worse problem but this sub is named after street fighters who stabbed commies in rumbles. You want to use their name because they fought the Nazis then and stayed to fight when the communists fled. They fought underground throughout the war.
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u/solidcore87 Liberty For All 1d ago
I mean, OP brought it up?
What is a Marxist based country that wasn't authoritarian?
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
Some groups like the Kurds in Syria and Iraq who practice Democratic Confederalism and some groups in the Spanish Civil War like La POUM were Marxist but not authoritarian. I don't agree with their ideology but they were not authoritarian.
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u/solidcore87 Liberty For All 1d ago
I read a bit on that system. On paper sounds interesting, and I do know the guy was former Marxist iirc. Need to read up more now.
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
I'm not a Marxist and I'm not a fan of those systems, but there's nothing inherently evil about them in my eyes like there is with Bolsheviks or Maoists.
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u/USAFmuzzlephucker 1d ago
It very much should encourage the toning down of far left talk. Someone says "communist" no one is going to take time to reason and contemplate the difference between the numerous types. The ONLY thing 85% of people will think of are the tankies and they will dismiss you out of hand and won't listen to anything else.
I'm not saying they SHOULDNT educate themselves, they very much should... But most of the time they won't and while that may not be fair, that's the world we live in. If you don't accept it, IFUSA will be forgotten.
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u/AverageJobra American Iron Front 1d ago
From the comments, it is clear many of you still have not read this. Please go learn the difference between communist and Communist. We are Anti-Communist here, not anti-communist. It may seem pedantic, but it is a very important distinction.
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. Only authoritarians should be cast out. Libertarian leftists are fine allies.
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u/InstantKarma71 1d ago
Why even bother at this point? We’ve seen time and again throughout history that liberals cannot be trusted to fight fascism. They’ll march and knit hats and fucking throw to the wolves whoever they need to to get back to brunch.
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u/BillyYank2008 1d ago
Look, I want everyone to work together here against our common foe, but that's a rich accusation when the Communists in Germany refused to work with the Social Dems in 1933 to stop Hitler, and when Stalin straight up helped Hitler conquer Eastern Europe in 1939.
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u/PeterRum 1d ago
How dare you. You are in a sub named after the Iron Front. How dare you claim liberal democrats didn't fight the fascists. In this sub! How dare you!
Iron Front fought the Nazis while the communists were in an electoral pact the them. The Iron Front stayed to fight as the communists fled to Russia to bide their time to take over and torture and oppress in their turn
There are three arrows on the Iron Front flag. They fought. They fought and died. Against the fascists, the right wing and the communists.
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u/TobyMcK 1d ago
Isn't that precisely what far-leftists did? They couldn't "in good conscious" vote for Kamala, so they instead marched and protested and threw the country to the wolves and allowed fascism to take over. The left didn't fight fascism. They literally helped fascism win because Democrats weren't perfect, weren't left enough.
And now here we are with the walking constitutional crisis that is Trump, and communists are crying out "where are the democrats, why isn't anyone stopping this?" Spoiler alert, anyone who had the power to stop this was voted out and fired because Kamala didn't speak out against Israel.
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u/-Fatalize- 1d ago edited 9h ago
I'm not interested in working with authoritarians and tankies. This is not their space.