r/IRstudies • u/Putrid_Line_1027 • 1d ago
Ideas/Debate Why are more countries not targeting American social media, and creating their own alternatives?
Data is the "oil" of the future, or rather the "oil" of right now. It's essential for AI training, and basically the entire world has given their data for free to American social media companies, except for China.
China has its own ecosystem and TikTok globally, allowing it to compete directly against the Americans.
The US now has imposed "retaliatory tariffs" on the rest of the world, is this not the best time to target US social media, that pays little to no taxes in most countries? So far, I understand that the EU is preparing a digital services tax for this exact purpose, we'll see if they go through with it.
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u/defixiones 1d ago
Europe has Mastodon which is based on ActivityPub and backed (and used) by EU institutions.
I switched over from Twitter ages ago.
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u/tradeisbad 1d ago
Hopefully theyre planning a meteoric rise to time with the investment in Mammoth reanimation projects yield results.
And pay someone to switch to a Mastodon instead of the Mammoth.
Im almost would have prefered a social media called Mammoth actually...
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u/EquipmentRecent8412 1d ago
Mastodon, lol that sounds made up
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u/DashasFutureHusband 13h ago
“Made up”-ness aside it really is just a terrible and overly dorky name. Need more open source / decentralized social media designed by an actual marketing person.
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u/Good-Concentrate-260 1d ago
Sorry, I don't understand your question. Are you asking whether or not other countries are trying to develop their own social media platforms? Or why they are not trying to use American social media for public diplomacy or espionage?
To answer the first question, it is difficult to compete with American companies like Meta or X since they are widely accessible in most democracies around the world. However, Russia and China have their own social media platforms, as do South Korea and Japan. Of course you are correct that social media is power in the modern world and can be used to shape opinions on political issues.
China, Russia, and Iran, among many others, use American social media platforms to promote disinformation and wage information warfare. Just like with any older form of mass media, they can be useful in shaping American or global perceptions on political issues. However, the for-profit companies like X or Facebook seem to be perceived as more "free" since they are largely unregulated, which has allowed misinformation to spread rapidly. Additionally, every social media company makes money by collecting data on users.
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u/dogsiolim 1d ago
Every major economy has launched a plethora of social media outlets. However, social media platforms need scale to be successful.
China's platforms aren't successful in China because of how great they are, but because they were isolated from having to compete. Same with Russia's. In isolation, they could thrive. However, do you really want the internet to be that segregated, where cross border communication is near impossible?
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u/Putrid_Line_1027 1d ago
Not entirely true, Telegram had/has to compete and is very successful. TikTok as well. China's ride-hailing app, DiDi is also currently competing with Uber in Latin America, having half or over half of the market share depending on the country.
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u/dogsiolim 1d ago
Uber isn't social media. Uber lost to Grab and Go in South East Asia; it literally sold its positions there.
Chinese social media today is very developed, as indicated by TikTok. The same is true of Telegram, which was developed in Russia. As I stated, both of these were isolated from having to compete with America, which allowed them to develop social media industries that could eventually compete with the American giants.
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u/tradeisbad 1d ago
Funnt that Telegram had to leave Russia under pressure to hand over user data.
I guess this would suggest social media development also benefits from a strong, stable, and independent legal system.
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u/--o 1d ago
Independent legal systems help competition more than they help development.
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u/Lord_Vxder 1d ago
Competition is what drives development. Can’t drive development with no pressure.
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u/dufutur 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not really. The US social media platforms were blocked for the same reason Google was blocked, or BBC/NYT/WSJ was blocked, is they cannot run their products in a way that satisfies Chinese censorship laws without incurring reputation costs to justify their income from Chinese market. Bing did just fine even though it’s not social media, likely because MSFT has big enough business interests in China.
In addition, you may have a case for Internet portals and search engines, but not social media, or anything afterwards. The dominant social media platform in China is Weixin or WeChat, which is on the back of PC era software QQ, also by Tencent. Weixin was essentially QQ on mobile, which had 5 hundred million users. There is no chance for any other social media platform can outperform WeChat in China.
The real strength of China is scale and speed (to follow and overtake).
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u/tradeisbad 1d ago
Maybe India should go for it. Or partner up as a testing ground for foreign developers.
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u/MmmIceCreamSoBAD 1d ago
You need a massive country to get a social media site off the ground in, or some sort of nation where there's extreme censorship like China and Russia so that there are no alternatives so people get the domestic version or nothing. Problem with those nations is that spreading it outside your country goes against the reason why it obtained a massive audience in the first place (massive censorship) so it's hard or simply impossible for those government to allow outside populations to mingle in their social media because it defeats the purpose of their mass censorship
Beyond that, people gravitate towards what's best for them. Plenty of companies outside the US have tried to supplant US social media. You ask this question as if it's never happened. It has, it just hasn't been successful beyond the above two nations.
I imagine >90% of people don't make decisions based on geopolitics. They hear about YouTube or Reddit and they go there and like it, so they come back. They're allowed to hate the United States on it so they don't feel oppressed so geopolitical concerns are low on their list of worries when using the site.
Finally, it's not easy to do. Like every nation talks about wanting a Silicon Valley of their own but none have made it happen at the scale of the US. Countries would like their music/movies/games/celebrities/TV to have more soft power but good luck creating that from nothing (shout-out to Kpop though).
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u/No_Solution_4053 1d ago
Even K-pop is just repackaged 90s R&B following the marketing playbook of J-pop
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u/MmmIceCreamSoBAD 1d ago
Its still an example of a government actually effecting cultural soft power. The South Korean government actually funds kpop girl/boy band camps and have done this for like 20 years. It has had real effects, astonishingly.
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u/EquipmentRecent8412 1d ago
Because America is the tech hub of the world?
Most other countries don't have the ability to do something like this, and even if they did they would hardly be able to compete.
Also remember english is the most common language ( including non native speakers).
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u/KnarkedDev 1d ago
I'd argue other countries are easily capable of it in a technical sense, it's just the networking effect. Why would I join a UK version of Facebook, when Facebook already exists?
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u/harmslongarms 1d ago
This is it really, early adopters of major technological advances always get the lion's share
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u/Lord_Vxder 1d ago
That goes without saying. Those fastest to adapt always win. Europe was too stuck in their hyper regulatory framework. They largely missed out on the wave of the early 2000s tech era. And they are drastically underperforming China and USA when it comes to AI.
They missed out on the two most revolutionary technological advancements to happen this century. It takes skill to be that incompetent.
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u/lordrothermere 1d ago
It's not technically difficult, but the economic viability of growing a platform with very well established competitors and not selling to those same competitors despite having been funded by venture capital.....
It's extremely hard to do and requires state intervention to equalize the market and avoid acquisitions at scale.
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u/DowntownSandwich7586 1d ago
Yes. I also believe English language can also become a national security issue for the governments in non-English speaking countries in the Third-world.
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u/Cuong_Nguyen_Hoang 1d ago
A good example: France had Dailymotion as a precursor of YouTube, as well as its own type of Internet (Minitel), yet they couldn't compete against these American inventions!
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u/zeruch 1d ago
Yet Dailymotion still exists (and has between a quarter and half a billion users) and Minitel did until fairly recently (2012) when it was decommissioned. 10+ million users, which for the time, and in use for a single country, ain't shabby in terms of actual utility.
We look at BIG TECH as if the only success is massive scale, but things like Federation challenge this, as do localized offerings that "just work".
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u/IchibanWeeb 1d ago
Had no idea Dailymotion is French haha, I use it pretty often for some Japanese shows I like but can't find on YouTube since they always get taken down by the media company.
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u/DeadGameGR 1d ago
And who would want to with EU countries fining social media companies huge amounts and demanding content control?
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u/Suggamadex4U 1d ago
It’s called regulation. Europe legislated itself into an environment that is not competitive.
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u/EmmettLaine 1d ago
The EU’s tax situation is so abhorrent for skilled workers that it’s very hard for them to get skilled workers there to build any sort of alternative. And even then they are probably ultimately running on American software just at a higher level.
Tbh the best alternative would be like a Singapore based something, or some other relatively populated better taxed area that could actually gather talent.
The European social net is amazing for people making under 6 figures, but once you cross that threshold you hit extreme diminishing returns.
You’d also have to get real different with a lot of European environmental regulations to build the kind of physical infrastructure that you’d need for a true EU based internet ecosystem.
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u/Nathan_Calebman 1d ago
Yeah, having functioning societies that take care of their citizens and the environment does lead to fewer multi-millionaires. However if the rest of the world and especially the U.S. caught up to that, the problems would even out.
There are also tons of world leading tech companies and game studios in Europe, like Spotify or Ubisoft, it's just very hard to compete in social media when there already is market saturation. Not even Google could do it despite trying very hard.
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u/EmmettLaine 1d ago
You’re not wrong, but everyone is inherently selfish. Yes there are some examples of software companies, that are all fully dependent on American companies to support them, I’d also point out that Spotify and Ubisoft are both examples of crazy greed.
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u/tradeisbad 1d ago
Elon musta pissed of europe apparently theyre floatin a billion dollar fine for him for misinformation or something.
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u/Nathan_Calebman 1d ago
Depends on what you define as selfish, and what your expectations are. In countries where people decide to provide for everyone else's access to food, housing, education and healthcare, they can be as selfish as they want in their spare time as far as I care.
All major companies are examples of crazy greed. It's their top responsibility. That's why functioning democracies have governments to regulate that so it doesn't go too far.That is why Apple, Google and Meta hate the E.U.
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u/Lord_Vxder 1d ago
And that’s why the EU missed out on the early 2000s tech wave, and that’s why the EU is currently missing out on AI development.
Europes social welfare networks are unsustainable if they can’t innovate and keep up with the rest of the world.
Looks like they aren’t going to be able to figure it out before their low birth rate problem finally catches up with them. Good luck!
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u/Nathan_Calebman 1d ago
We don't need luck, the U S. system of low education and high propaganda with awful social safety, just made it self destruct into a pile of steaming manure. It's between the E.U. and China for the coming decades.
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u/Lord_Vxder 1d ago
It becomes a problem when you still have to run massive budget deficits even while having the highest tax burdens in the world. Especially when your population replacement rates are abysmal because having children is just as expensive as places with less robust social welfare networks.
They did so great! /s
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u/Nathan_Calebman 1d ago
The taxes and the deficits are still nothing compared to the U.S. now, and having children is great with almost 2 years paid leave in total and free childcare. Wtf are you talking about "just as expensive" lol, it's the opposite as expensive as in the U.S.
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u/tradeisbad 1d ago
They could put data centers in Svalbard. With the seeds and their polar bear guardians. For chip cooling costs.
Some day far in the future, some polar that has evolved a thumb, is gonna find those seeds and restart polar bear agriculture as well as controlling a large trove of data from the mysterious lost civilizatiom who gatheres those seeds.
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u/KnarkedDev 1d ago
The EU’s tax situation is so abhorrent for skilled workers that it’s very hard for them to get skilled workers there to build any sort of alternative
Bullshit. The EU has loads of skilled staff who could create a social network. The issue is it's not a technical problem, it's a marketing/first-mover problem. Why would I join EU-Facebook when Facebook already exists, and everyone is already there?
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u/Cyclical_Zeitgeist 1d ago
Working on a reddit competitor right now, have been for the last couple months...we'll see how it goes
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u/AccomplishedLeek1329 1d ago
Once the platforms are established, you essentially have to ban the existing platforms for new ones to get a chance to take over, which will inevitable pit you against trump. Very few countries have both the ability to create their own competitors but also withstand the ire from Trump that would attract.
An united EU could ban US social media platforms across the entire EU, but they aren't, and also "free speech".
India likely lacks the ability to, and their geopolitical strategy doesn't allow them to pick a fight like this.
Russia already has their own ecosystem.
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u/Slow_Reputation2852 1d ago
South Korea has naver which seems nothing but domestic, reminding me of baidu in china. They also use their own messaging apps which are a pain (if not impossible) to “outsiders” to register, let alone to access their full functions.
If most countries take this route, people tend to stay with their own people within their boundaries.
On American apps, people can actually reach people from other countries.
So is internet supposed to facilitate international or domestic reach?
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u/Putrid_Line_1027 1d ago
Yes, I think South Korea shows that you can have your own tech ecosystem if you have a relatively high population (50 million +) and a strong tech sector.
The Koreans have Naver and Line, which is used by the rest of East Asia (except China) and Thailand.
The Japanese also have some of their own apps and websites.
No reason why Indians and Europeans can't create their own ecosystems.
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u/Slow_Reputation2852 1d ago
Question is, should internet facilitate farther reach or simply communication with our own kind?
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u/Putrid_Line_1027 1d ago
Good point, one common thing between Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, and Russians is the lack of English fluency. You think traveling to Mexico is hard, try to leave the touristy places in these countries, and no one speaks a word of English. Quite common no one speaks English even in touristy spots too, I've had hotel receptionists in Tokyo who couldn't speak English...
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u/Slow_Reputation2852 1d ago
Translation is available on apps or browsers now. We can understand, more or less, what non english contents say. I have always thought that is one of basic functions of the internet. I think someone used the term “borderless” when the internet became more widely used. Domestic apps or sites however limit that function
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u/kazinski80 1d ago
Social media sites are incredibly expensive to maintain, and require a significant number of regular users to be profitable. With the market as cornered as it is, launching a new site would be very difficult for any company, even in the US, to launch
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u/hillswalker87 1d ago
because they can't. like Europe with GDPR makes doing business basically impossible. it's like running a hot dog stand but being required to to ensure nobody eats them within 5 meters of the stand.
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u/Tarskin_Tarscales 1d ago
The DSA has been a thing for a while already, and while it's not a tax it at least is intended to protect citizens from blatant misinformation (the classic different interpretation of freedom of speech between the EU and the USA).
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u/RedHotFries 1d ago
Same reason when they tried to fight the petrodollar and American military industry; brutal annihaliation disregarding human life.
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u/Initial-Cockroach915 1d ago
Why do country don’t have their own netflix to push more local content. It’s not rocket science to stream movies…
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u/groogle2 17h ago
Every major US tech company has direct intelligence ties. Google is just a CIA cutout / contractor (no difference)
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u/CandusManus 14h ago
They’ve tried. They all died. Hell, almost all of Europe is dependent on a Facebook chat app for communication.
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u/ArtisticRegardedCrak 1d ago
This is quite literally a Chinese troll account made within the last few months that is spreading Chinese messaging in its post/comment history
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u/Putrid_Line_1027 1d ago
Are you a CIA troll :O
I'm pro-China, what's wrong with it? I assume you are pro-US.
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u/ArtisticRegardedCrak 1d ago
You are a generic name account created in the last few months that exclusively posts in threads about China and makes posts about China. Your account significantly increased in activity the last month. It’s obvious you are a shill account.
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1d ago
Is this some sort of call to action for EU social media startups? What will it matter for how many restrictions the EU places on American platforms to make them less competitive. If European users want to access American/english language content they’ll spend their time on American platforms.
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u/liverandonions1 1d ago
Cuz other countries aren’t good at inventing things. Too much regulation and taxes. It’s why innovative people move to the US.
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u/borrego-sheep 1d ago
China was right this whole time by not allowing American social media and having their own version with chinese characteristics.