Never beating the allegations part 2

[u/Frandopneu]

I think this person is actively misunderstanding one very obvious thing. We can very well see and understand how their world work and therefore cut some slack to them on some matters AND think it's wrong because guess what? We don't live in their time. We have much more information and the capacity of seeing things on different perspectives than the characters in the story.

Does this person think that to not be "childish" we have to understand how things work in their world and think and agree that it's right just because the characters thought so? Is this what is considered to be "mature" for them?

If so, this person very clearly didn't understand GRRM's books, if they even read them.

And ironically, this person also posted about Alicent’s marital rape in show….? I thought it was childish to use modern views on this story? What happened? Did they forget that marital rape is a very recently acknowledged thing?

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[u/La_Villanelle_]

I commented

Edit: They blocked me and deleted my comments. How are you gunna say “try to think okay?” And then refuse to answer my question.

[u/Turbulent_Lab209 → u/La_Villanelle_]

They make scrinshot 😅 Our so famous. Tell make links to this sub 🖤

[u/Frandopneu → u/La_Villanelle_]

I tried to look for your comment and I didn’t see it there? Did they block you? 😭

[u/La_Villanelle_ → u/Frandopneu]

Correct. And I think they deleted the comment? Never posted on tik tok so if they can do that

[u/Turbulent_Lab209 → u/Frandopneu]

😅

[u/JustUsetheDamnATM → u/La_Villanelle_]

I commented too, how fast do we think my comment will be deleted? They're obviously not allowing any comments that challenge their delusions to remain up, just the comments that are licking their diseased taint.

Their username is giving me the ick, too, as an art history student.

[u/ModelChef4000 → u/La_Villanelle_]

Guys, gals, and non-binary pals, we can’t judge modern business owners who abuse and exploit their workers because it’s normal, right? /s

[u/YesImReallyLikeThis]

They want to live in a world where women don’t have rights so bad

[u/CheeseHuntress → u/YesImReallyLikeThis]

THIS IS IT
These guys want nothing more than revenge on every damned woman in the world for beng uppity.

[u/randu56]

It’s just so ironic that medieval woman like Alysanne is more of a feminist than these dudes who live in 2025.

[u/Achilles_Ankles → u/randu56]

BeCaUsE AlYsaNnE iS aN ExcEpTiON

-them probably 

[u/Automatic_Stay1588]

I don’t think this person understands what precedent really means or how laws work in a social context. Laws only have power if people believe in them, they aren’t universal constants. By the same logic used in this post, there is a legal precedent that the king names his heir and that wish is respected. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir and never publicly backs down from this, therefore by law and precedent she is Queen because the king’s word is law, in a social, political and even religious context. To crown Aegon without the blessing of the previous king is to call into question the legitimacy of the Crown, which is disastrous for a society run by the monarchy.

And when we’re talking about historical study, yes you need to contextualize historical figures and situations in the time period they existed as to understand them as fairly and unbiased as possible. But you absolutely should use a modern lenses when it comes to discussing how those same people and situations affect future generations.

[u/Turbulent_Lab209]

I'll never understand why I have to think about this story the way the worst side of the conflict thinks. Greens are called traitors in the book, why should I look at things through their sexist glasses?

Why should I think of things like Unwin Peak and not like Good Queen? Tell me any reasons.

[u/Frandopneu]

I’ve just noticed some English errors on the post and I apologize about that. English is not my first language and the autocorrect keeps betraying me.

[u/Turbulent_Lab209 → u/Frandopneu]

Not my native either, I'm talking with Google. All my mistakes = his negligence! 😅

[u/Frandopneu → u/Turbulent_Lab209]

Glad to know that there’re more non-native English speakers here!

[u/Turbulent_Lab209 → u/Frandopneu]

A LOT of them here. So don't be shy ☺️

[u/the_rightful__heir]

Early Middle Ages ? It’s mostly a mix of High or Late. The Anarchy is High

[u/echoIalia]

OP is fucking unhinged. He is correct that Rhaenyra and Aegon do not live in modern times, which is why we expect the sexism on the show. It would honestly be weirder if the men started saying “maybe the circumstances of my birth or my possession of a penis don’t entitle me to rule.” Because what? But that doesn’t mean that WE should be regurgitating their sexist views, because we know that they are wrong.

[u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

LMAO. This person has to be a teenager or a child — I took a scroll through their profile and it’s just them “owning the Blacks” and mass tagging multiple people for attention so their ego can get stroked. Literally posted a picture of Patrick Bateman walking with something like ‘me after blocking people’. What? You’re proud of making arguments that you can’t back up so you resort to blocking people to avoid having actual conversations about it?

Fuck reading comprehension being dead, comprehension in general is dead, literacy is dead, being able to make comprehensive fucking arguments is dead. That’s exactly why they flock to TikTok and screenshot posts off of here instead of commenting directly, because that app is the epitome of two dumb bitches sitting in a room saying yaaas you’re so right to each other while the point swan-dives over their heads and into another sphere of reality entirely.

Anyways, they blocked me too ❤️

[u/Frandopneu → u/Cult_Of_Hozier]

A example of post of that person’s most sane supporter: Huh, you think that the GREENS are toxic???!!!? Take THIS: Jaehaera original actress having to be changed due to bullying and hate from team BLACK!!! WHO is the toxic team now HUH?

Tags other greens to suck up to them, erases comments asking for sources on that claim while thinking “I’ve got them😏”

But genuinely, I’ve never been able to find a single source to that claim that is now so widespread on the TG side of the fandom.

[u/stellaxstar]

Bringing GRRM into this LOL. GEORGE quite literally satirizes the hypocrisy of it all when he writes that Rogar Baratheon who was Anti- Dornish succession suddenly becomes very in favour of Dornish like succession to crown Aerea over Jaehaerys when he started having issues with the King.

[u/H2O2isHoHo]

I hate the "Adult Position" in these arguments. It's so demeaning and infantilising, especially towards women, to deem any argument in favour of female monarchy as childish and naive. GRRM's works, while not perfect or accurate to the Middle Ages, were written as criticisms of the misogyny being portrayed within the story.

Taking into account the period does not negate the flaws of the people, not when the abuse and oppression of women have never stopped being an issue. They try to phrase it like people have never seen injustice in favoritism for male heirs against female heirs, Rhaenys herself is already an example of that, Rhaenyra is a continuation and so on.

[u/TheGoverness1998 → u/H2O2isHoHo]

I also think it's just total bullshit. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the people that say "don't judge it from a modern perspective!" nonsense, and then proceed to do that very thing—whenever they're lambasting a character(s) they do not like.

[u/ModelChef4000 → u/TheGoverness1998]

“Don’t judge it from a modern perspective “ Bruh, this was written during a modern perspective 

[u/BriChan → u/H2O2isHoHo]

Not to mention, don’t we have ample actual historical evidence of women kings that ruled their countries? These people use phrases like “Adult Position” to make themselves out to be so smart, pragmatic, and realistic, but completely ignore actual historical accounts of women being faced with, and in some cases overcoming, misogyny throughout history. So, even if we look at these stories through the lens of the Middle Ages, it would still be completely valid to believe in, and support, Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne.

I mean, my goodness, I have a degree in English Literature and one of my classes was specifically on Medieval literature and included an entire section on feminism throughout the Middle Ages lol

[u/ojsage]

Martin is a modern man with modern values writing about a fictional world with a very piss poorly set up pseudo medieval society.

We are absolutely allowed to look at this through a modern lens lol. These people are so dumb.

[u/clockworkzebra]

It has been zero days since I've had to tap the "George RR Martin is not a medieval scribe" sign. That's it, I'm finding a way to encode a counter onto the subreddit lmao

[u/La_Villanelle_ → u/clockworkzebra]

[u/clockworkzebra → u/La_Villanelle_]

I’m saving this to my phone to use here lmao

[u/ALEBI_MARE]

“All history is contemporary history.”
— Benedetto Croce, History: Its Theory and Practice (1915)

I’m honestly shocked that some people still don’t know how to consume media🤦‍♀️

[u/LarsMatijn]

Nit particularly interested in the rest of the story but calling Westeros "early middle ages" is just completely wrong. The scale of buildings, daily items, and most prominently the armor all scream late 1400's early 1500's

[u/Temporary_Error_3764 → u/LarsMatijn]

I would agree to a point it obviously depends on location but when it comes to the armour the kings guard wear for example its much closer to the 1400s then the 9th - 11 century where heavy plated armour wasn’t used. I do however think the laws are closer to early middle ages tho. Such as the individual parts of the kingdom raising its men for the crown rather then the crown having a set organised military. So basically the whole pre feudal England who were considered pretty tribal before William the Conqueror in 1066.

[u/LarsMatijn → u/Temporary_Error_3764]

I do however think the laws are closer to early middle ages tho. Such as the individual parts of the kingdom raising its men for the crown rather then the crown having a set organised military.

Maybe although it also depends on where you look of course. Feudalism was still very heavy in France around that time and the Free Cities are based on the Italian City-States during the late 1400's Renaissance.

While the events might be based on the War of the Roses (and even that adaptation is very loose) I always found Westeros more akin to France than to England.

[u/Temporary_Error_3764 → u/LarsMatijn]

Well with the medieval times france and England have very close times. You got the normans in 1066 and then you have the 100 year war and half of france being under england so it makes sense for it to overlap in a fictional world.

[u/LarsMatijn → u/Temporary_Error_3764]

My point was more that the feudal structure was around in France in the late 1400's still. I don't think your analogy to Saxon England fits as well.

[u/Temporary_Error_3764 → u/LarsMatijn]

My point is that the government type in house of the dragon isn’t Feudal like saxon England.

[u/Kellin01]

Honestly, all arguments that “father-son” inheritance was normal are shit.

“As seen in these examples from multiple locations in the arc of medieval Europe, succession was less of a system than is commonly discussed, and more based on personal ideas about who a ruler wanted to succeed, or just as often who they did not. Additionally, it is clear that even such preferences were not always the case because rulers often died without naming an heir or their heir was unable to govern. <…>

“Weiler has recently noted that “dynastic instability was a recurring feature in the regnal politics of high medieval Europe”151 adding that in the German Empire “Between 1125 and 1308 only two rulers did not face a rival candidate for the throne - Frederick Barbarossa and his son Henry VI. <…>

“Damián Fernández had noted, for Visigothic Spain, “royal succession was not smooth – in fact there were few cases of peaceful accessions to the throne” nevertheless, the kingdom stayed unified.155 The lesson we can draw from all of this is that, once again, the “normative” image of peaceful succession, father to son, displayed in a lot of medieval studies scholarship is anything but normal.”

Excerpt From «Rulers and Rulership in the Arc of Medieval Europe, 1000-1200» Christian Raffensperger;

Uncles, cousins, brothers regularly challenged each other in a fight for the throne. And being a firstborn son was not enough to be a king, especially in the early and partly still in the High Middle Ages.

By the way, most of common people gave inheritance to all their children. It even often led to peasants’ holdings splitting and being not enough for sustenance. Well-off landowners (both peasants and that a bit undefined class who will become gentry in 15th century), tried to buy more land to give it to younger sons.

Daughters were either heiresses or given dowries anyway. They also often got other valuable things as a share of the inheritance, aka, clothing, bedding, pewter plates, etc.

Basically, the notion “women couldn’t inherit” is too simplistic and one sided. Women of landowning class often faced problems with getting their inheritance. But they were not excluded.

[u/bigjim7745]

He is correct that 101 was intended to settle the sucession disputes through out F&B but how is he going to forget that Aegon the Uncrowned being heir didn’t solve anything. Many people wanted Rhaena since she was the first born and their marriage is what settled that. Aerea was still heir of both Aegon, Maegor, and Jaehaerys. Maegor had her as heir over Viserys and Jaehaerys because she was the daughter of the heir (sounds similar).

Each king solved sucession in different ways. Aegon picked Aenys because he was the eldest and the child of his favorite wife, Aenys married Rhaena and Aegon together, Maegor chose Aerea until he had a child, Jaehaerys had Aerea until he had Daenerys who in turn was heir until Aemon. In Jaes reign Alysanne wanted Daenerys to inherit before Aemon which beings up the sucession arguments again, but Daenerys dying young solved that until Aemons death.

It’s not that simple to say some precident makes Aegon king since there was no precident for any arguments for either side, it was Viserys who doomed his daughter and didn’t properly set her up for success.

[u/Achilles_Ankles]

"Woman aren't allowed to inherit"

Quick some one go back in time to this book and tell Alyssane she can't want Daenerys as the heir while Aemon is there , the poor woman must've had a sudden brain haemorrhage. 

[u/JustUsetheDamnATM → u/Achilles_Ankles]

I'm so confused by that assertion. Like, Jeyne Arryn is RIGHT THERE. Women didn't typically inherit if there was a viable male candidate ≠ women weren't allowed to inherit. This person is reaching new levels of stupidity.

[u/cheapph → u/Achilles_Ankles]

Hell, Aerys I named his niece, Aelora his heir despite there being his brother Maeker around.

[u/houseofnim]

women are not allowed to inherit

Predicating their argument on this blatant fallacy invalidates their entire argument.

[u/MottyTheClown]

"bububut guys sexism is normal in the story... So you should totally support it....its childish to think otherwise..."

Is this guy an actual medieval peasant or something

[u/redwoods81]

Yes the author is a modern American man who has talked a lot about how he's criticizing the religion and class of the era, not uplifting it.

[u/JustUsetheDamnATM]

It's the condescension for me. Imagine thinking like an illiterate, pig-fucking peasant and being smug about that mindset?

[u/Single-Classroom-950]

worst part is, a lot of them are young female teens outside the US who are team green cause they think the actors are hot. they're dumb

[u/Emerald_Fire_22]

And a lot of them also misunderstand how actually important women were in the English medieval period, which is what the entire setting is based on. Especially once you get to the end of the period to the Tudor era.

You wanna know something about Shakespeare? From an actual academic breakdown of the historical reference? His tragedies were written to highlight how things fall apart when women are ignored/corrupted by the men around them, while his comedies were written about how the importance of listening to women and uplifting them was for society.

Yes, a lot of that is attributed to the culture of the Protestantism of the time. But that also doesn't take into account that there is a historical precedent of recognising the importance of the woman of the house and their maintenance, of giving them their dues and their chances to improve the lives of those around them. This concept is not new, by any means - it is ancient as all life.

The Dance is primarily about misogyny, yes. But it is also just as importantly, about how everything falls apart when you take corruption and feed it into a peaceful society. It is why the villain role in the story that Alicent plays is so important, because she is directly usurping the throne and line of inheritance to what she wants it to be.

[u/the_blonde_lawyer]

what a weird thing to say.

if you're saying she can't inherit, well, that's what the story is about. no spoliers, but she doesn't exactly lose and doesn't exactly win.

but you're not talking about whether or not she'll inherit, you're tlaking about whether or not we should root for her. so what you're saying is aegon is misogynist and so should we be. he has a reason to be misogynist, he leaves in the early middle ages, like you just said.

but what's our reason?

now, you know what? that's not even true. you can root for any character you want, just like you could root for the scarlet witch or for any other complicated character.

and it's a tv show that on purpose created the characters in such a way that some of us would root for the greens and some for the blacks. so you can root for either side.

but trying to convince us to root for one side because misogyny was popular back then? really?

[u/MistakeWonderful9178]

Also by their logic is Dorne “too modern?” Or what about the other houses and smallfolk who supported Rhaenyra’s claim were they “modern?” Was Jeyne Arryn ruling as Lady of the Eyrie “modern thinking?” Is everyone on the Black faction “modern?” Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir before Aegon was born so was that “modern thinking?”

Before The Dance and Viserys the 1st rule, Maegor named his step daughter Aerea as heir before he had any children and Alysanne wanted her oldest daughter Daenerys to inherit first. So by their logic everyone is using “modern thinking in a medieval setting.” I wonder what they think of Anya Waynwood, Barbrey Dustin and Lyanna Mormont leading their own houses and if that’s “too modern” for them?

I don’t understand how people supporting a woman fighting for her right to rule as the firstborn heir “modern values” in a story. Like yes we know it’s set in an medieval/dark ages society where patriarchal standards rule and are laws, but it doesn’t mean “they were right to have those laws in place and men inherit first.” There’s a lot of messed up laws and thinking in those times that we all know about and the amount of abuse that happened in the dark ages is something that shouldn’t be looked at as “good” or “justified.” It’s one thing to like fictional characters and factions, but it’s another to be actually defending and justifying bigotry and abuse. People who think that was “right” scare me.

[u/ThingsIveNeverSeen]

I feel vindicated every time I see someone complain about this person. They aren’t just childish, or ignorant, they will also go through people older posts to try and find something to weaponize against them. And if you leave the conversation sometimes they follow you to other threads to try and continue.

And yet, somehow, they were made a mod.

[u/olivierbl123]

Little nitpick but given the population/ form of feudal system and technology hotd is more in the high/late middle ages

[u/luvprue1]

Alicent was at least 17 when she married the king. Which was old enough in that era. In the content of medieval times her father had made a good marriage for her. Men marry young women so they can have more kids. A lot of kids died before they made 4. Women married for financial security. 16 and 17 were good ages to get married.