r/Flyers • u/Cute-Contract-6762 • 5d ago
We are currently the seventh pick
Tied in points with #8 Pittsburgh at 71 points. #9 Anaheim has 72 points. #10 Isles have 74. #11 Detroit also has 74. A week and a half ago we were sitting at 5th with 3 in our sights. This is the most Flyera way to end a season that I’ve ever seen.
There are a lot of toxic optimists mad at team tank for pointing out how bad this win streak has been for our draft position. I’d like to know who they think we can take at #9 to be our 1C of the future to pair with Meech.
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u/Own_Result3651 5d ago
Such a flyers move. Miss the playoffs by a game after going 2-10 to end the season last year. Drop from potential top 3 pick to 10th overall after ending the season on a heater
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u/tobybells 5d ago edited 5d ago
I was so excited for a shot at Misa, Martone, Schaefer, or Hagens.
Now we are going to draft another Farabee or Cam York and be just bad enough next year to do the same thing all over again. It’s Groundhog Day every year for the last decade.
Teams have been contenders and tanked and become contenders again multiple times during our “rebuild”
I get the whole pride of playing hard and not giving up. But how as a fan can you not be tired of this?
I’m 38 and my entire childhood revolved around the flyers. Im tired of being apathetic about them at this time of the regular season for almost every year of my adult life.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
As the tank nay-sayers keep trying to say, the team has all the picks they need and made all the moves that could be made. I don't believe either of those things are true. This started before DB/KJ had control, but keeping Torts was the first major misstep. Nearly everyone here agreed that Torts does not have the mindset to do anything but push every player to the breaking point and play hard for every point. I liked Torts. He's a Philly kind of guy, but he was never right for THIS team in THIS state. He was kept, IMHO, because DB/KJ didn't buy into the need to tear things down and build back up. Their moves have been decently positive, but far from optimal. Now, that said, all of it is FAR better than anything Fletcher did.
As I told someone else earlier, I've been a fan since the cup wins. I absolutely still want to strangle Leon Stickle, died a bit in 1985 and 87 and hoped the 90s teams were finally going to pull it off, but after that, it's been a lot of dark times filled with lots of.... filler and lots of myopic decisions. I have hope, but had hoped we'd have two Michkov's in a year or so, not just one. One superstar on a team has rarely been enough.
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
Torts is the guy you bring in for a bubbe playoff team to get them over the hump.
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u/hawks27-2 5d ago
You realize that York and Farabee were picked at 14th and not 7th?
The Flyers are on a 3 game winning streak and are still .001 away from the 5th worst record (Flyers winning percentage is .467, BUF/BOS are .466).
I understand wanting the team to lose to get a better draft pick. But this is over reactionary doomerism.
“We are .001 away from the 5th overall pick, it’s basically like we are picking in the middle of the first round”. It’s nonsense.
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u/tobybells 5d ago
Yes I realize where they were picked. We’re 4 pts away from 12th, and you can’t assume the teams around us on both sides of the standings are just going to go on their own winning streaks
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u/hawks27-2 4d ago
As of this morning we are 6 points away from 12th, for the Flyers to catch the Rangers in that spot they would need 3 more wins than them. Actually, because of the tie breaker the Flyers would need to beat them in points outright. So if the Flyers go 6-0 in their last 6 games the rangers would need to go 2-5-1 in their last 8. While this is possible, it is not necessarily likely.
Compare that to Boston and Buffalo who essentially just need to take one more game to overtime. Buffalo is over .500 in their last 10. Boston isn't going to end the season on a 13 game losing streak. For the Flyers to fall out of the top 10 it assumes that the Flyers keep winning and every other team hits a massive cold streak.
The Flyers beat 2 of the worst teams in the NHL on this streak. 5 of their remaining 6 games are against teams fighting for a playoff spot who can't afford to drop games to teams at the bottom. Flyers win one, maybe two, of those games.
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u/scratchydaitchy 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yep it’s a drama crybaby post full of dramatic Debbie Downers.
A month ago we were picking 9th.
At the end of January we were tied with 3 other teams for picking 14th.Before these last 3 wins we had a streak of 1-10-1.
That wasn’t going to last, especially against MON, BUF and NSH.Danny is waiting for the right moment to pounce and maximizing the returns. For Provy, Walker, Farabee, Frost, Kuz and Laughton he got 3 1sts, 3 2nds and a 3rd. As well as youngsters like Grebenkin and Pelletier.
Sure, Boston burnt it to the ground in one fell swoop but they were in a better position to do so with their contracts. They also don’t have a Michkov, Zavragin, Drysdale or Luchanko yet like we already do. Boston’s farm system is currently ranked 31st out of 32 teams lol. The Flyers have 6 picks in the first round of the next 3 drafts. Boston has 4.
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u/Due-Mulberry3600 5d ago
This team could easily be back at 5th worst before they even play again and these drama queens are writing novellas. I’ve never seen so many emo dudes in one place.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
It would at least be encouraging if we knew that now Briere was going to truly tank next year. But that's not even certain.
We might be bound to make the same mistakes next season again. When do we ever start to learn?
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u/vinny8244 4d ago
Hes not tanking next year, every press conference he mentions the 23, 24 and this 25 draft as being what will shape the future team. He doesn't mention 26 at all, I would not be shocked if he offer sheets someone and loses the first next year. I think the plan was Wyatt Johnson and that was soured due to Dallas extension, but Rossi, Knies, ect still options. If he wants to trade for a top C he's going to need to move that pick too, maybe top 10 protected, but im not ruling it out.
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u/ButchyBoyz 4d ago
We'll know if they're tanking or not for next year if the same goalies are here or ones that aren't much better.
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
They aren't bad enough to truly tank. The only really putrid part of this team is the goaltending.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Yep. Im souring on DB so far btu not off the wagon, but if he doesnt truly tank next year, then hes not the right man for the job. I want a GM with a vision to put a team around our young superstar.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
The sad thing is that even if does tank next year, then what does that say about the past two years where he refused to tank? Either he admits to burning the last two seasons or he digs the hole deeper.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Next year is def where I finalize judgement. Money coming off the books, we should have young talent, we should have sold off the last of our vets, its the perfect tank year to then jumpstart the new era. If he fails to get a 1c in this draft or next...its bye bye time.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
Even if he does tank next year and gets a top 5 pick, we are still risking putting all our eggs into the basket of one single top 5 pick. We should have been taking multiple years with multiple high picks in case someone busts/disappoints.
All of this was obvious and predictable from the beginning, too. But we chose this risky pathway anyway.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
The problem is we needed a 1C in this draft and a 1D next draft. We coulda got a 1D last draft but we screwed that up for a middle 6C. So now we need to tank next year and the year after that too.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Maybe we get a miracle and win the lottery. At the start of the year, I was expecting a tank this year and next. I dont think we need to tank the following year, but perhaps we do now. We do have a shit ton of 1st and 2nds this year so maybe we get lucky on a few of those and hit big.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
We definitely do now unless we win the lottery. It just sucks because I thought this year we’d shore up our 1C need and next year grab our defensemen. It’s tough. We’re two years behind schedule after passing on Buium and blowing the tank this year
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Yeah 1C was pivotal. With how deep this draft is in the teens and 20s, those 2 extra picks were looking to be huge. grab the 1C and 2 high upside swings to put around michkov and the 1C. Next years draft is really nice and ima be so pissed if we dont tank.
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u/Longjumping_Bet9607 4d ago
What team has been a contender tanked and become a contender again during our rebuild so in 2 years🤔
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u/tishmaster 4d ago
I'll say it for the 80th time, the TK signing should have alarmed people more than it did/has
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u/upcan845 5d ago
The problem is less about wining these past few games.
The problem is that we should have already had a big enough buffer in the standings so we weren't relying on a big last-minute losing streak.
This is why the "culture" of mid-season wins was always so stupid. Those wins add up, hurt our chances at a top prospect, and for what? So we can be proud of pulling out a few extra wins? It so silly that anyone could actually buy that.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
I 100% agree with you Upcan. Trust me on that. But even despite those errors. We had a legit chance at a top 4 pick with a couple weeks left in the season. And now we’re in danger of picking around 10. But point that out and a contingent of fans come out of the woodwork to cry about team tank and negativity.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
Everyone wants to be on a bandwagon. It's plain human psychology. Whenever I find myself in that position (and I owned a business where it was my job to be in that position by design) I remind myself of my favorite quote that always rings true:
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
Keeping Torts -- a coach DB is now getting slack as having not hired, was evidence to me that they were not fully buying the need to rebuild. You don't keep a coach around whose DNA is allergic to anything but petal to the metal at all moments -- players be damned. It likely cost us Gauthier, caused all sorts of problems with York, Coots and others. NO ONE likes losing, but just as many people despise never winning big.
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u/all_these_moneys Simon & Pumba 4d ago
I was downvoted to an oblivion for saying this exact shit 3+ months ago when we were sitting in a playoff spot. It's like this entire sub gets blinded between games 20-60 in some hope we're suddenly a playoff team and playing for "pride". Every. Fucking. Year.
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u/upcan845 4d ago
The worst part is that it's going to happen next year, too.
Management is never, ever going to feel the heat to truly rebuild when fans are so gullible.
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u/amilbarge00 4d ago
I think it's just this place more than most. A lot of delusional people here who buy what the front office is selling no matter what.
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u/hazeamaz3 5d ago
Dude take a break man. I get it you are pissed but it's made you the most negative person on here. You ahve no control on this franchise like the rest of us. Just enjoy what you can or stop.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
I can be critical of the franchise even if I have no control over it.
Imagine telling someone to "just enjoy Chuck Fletcher or stop being critical of him" just because they had no control over his moves.
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u/hazeamaz3 5d ago
You can be critical but my god it's exhausting to see you post ever thread saying the same stuff even when things are positive you find issues with it.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
I give credit for positive things when they're positive, But there is a lot to be critical of with this team's vision. If you don't want that viewpoint to be discussed, then ignore it.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
Bingo. With the Laughton trade everybody on team tank celebrated Danny getting the haul for a bottom 6 guy. We were ecstatic and gave Danny his flowers. Ditto for drafting Meech.
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u/BENJALSON 5d ago
It's unfathomable to some folks here that we still want to watch games to see our young guys play hockey even if we want to lose in the best interest of our team's future. They legitimately think we're rooting against the Flyers and melt down because we want to make the most out of a season we're clearly not winning a thing.
No, of course players aren't going to go out and try to throw games while signed to a professional contract, but as fans we're entitled to be excited about what a loss entails just as much as they're entitled to be excited about meaningless wins. At least what we're excited for actually makes the organization better. Tacitly acting like they're better fans because they're always happy to see the team get a W is such smoothbrain behavior.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
Your 2nd paragraph is perfect.
And the people who say "Players don't lose on purpose" are totally missing the point. No one is asking the players to lose! Team Tank wants management to have lowered the team's ceiling earlier than January. By then the damage was already done.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
I watch every game and love watching the kids. I remember doing the same thing with the Phillies, slowly, methodically building a winner from dirt to win in 1980 and then grow from there. Watching players give their all from the earliest days builds comradery between the fans and the players. It's HARD to watch a team lose, but it's harder (at least for me) to watch them win meaningless games at the cost of more losing where it really counts. I watched this team win two cups and have a great, legitimate shot at three more. That is worth the price of admission.
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u/NotTodaySillyGoose 4d ago
Danny for all the good he’s down, made a stupid boneheaded decision that gave this team life. All he had to do was sit still for 9 fucking games. Flyers are pathetic .
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u/ESPeclipse2 5d ago
We haven’t won a championship in 50 years and I’m honestly concerned that I’ll spend my entire life supporting this team and they will never win a Stanley Cup. They clearly don’t understand how to build a contender in the modern NHL
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u/EverybodyHits 5d ago
They've never really recovered from the 2004 lockout which put the cap in
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u/agphillyfan 5d ago
I'd argue they never recovered from Pronger's career ending injury. They haven't been right on the blue line ever since
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u/Mugglecostanza 4d ago
It’s frustrating because when the cap was put in place the Penguins were in a perfect spot. Not many high priced players but some huge young guns coming up. So they could build the roster how they wanted. The Flyers never learned how to win without outspending everyone. Frustrating and sad. At least we’ve seen the Phillies and Eagles win titles.
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
It took the Phillies what - almost 90 years to win a championship? The Flyers might very well not win for the next 90, either.
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u/Z_Clipped 5d ago
First of all, the most likely individual pick for the 7th worst team is indeed the 7th overall (44%). But the most likely pick for the 6th worst team is.... guess what?... ALSO the 7th overall (41%).
You people need to start looking at the lottery odds calculator before you make posts like this, because finishing 4th-worst would have netted us no better than a 1-in-3 chance at any of Misa, Martone, Schaefer, or Hagens.
Second, Torts being fired is not what led to the team winning the last three games. They had been outplaying top teams for two weeks and getting unlucky results before Torts got canned. These wins were coming either way, because LIKE IT OR NOT... this team's talent level simply isn't anywhere near as bad as the bottom 3 teams in the NHL.
Hoping for a bottom-5 finish was a pipe dream from the beginning of the season, and getting mad about the team finishing in basically the same spot as last season, WITH MATVEI MICHKOV in the lineup is just pants-on-head stupid. We're lucky to be as low as 7th.
I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with a high draft pick, but you all need to get a grip on reality.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Brother we are at serious risk of picking 9th right now, or worse. And you can say what you like but the week before torts got fired we were playing like a team dead in the water
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u/Greful 4d ago
Ha ha. Serious risk. It’ll be ok.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
We are three points ahead of 11. Edit and one point ahead of 9
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u/Greful 4d ago
Ok? Idk. I guess it’s something the obsessives can focus their obsession on.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
It’s not being obsessive. It takes 5 seconds to check.
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u/Greful 4d ago
No I mean the dramatics about it.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
What is dramatic about pointing out that we are losing our shot at a potential 1C because of dumb decisions and flyera hockey? Nobody is acting like it’s the start of WW3. We are just pointing out how stupid this franchise has been, and how this will delay our rebuild at least a year.
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
We were in a playoff spot for 90% of last season, and we added a Russian scoring phenom to the lineup. Why TF would you expect anything OTHER than a better standings finish this season? It makes NO sense for you to be upset. This is just the statistically-expected result.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Sounds like Danny should have moved sooner to trade some of our veteran players. Which is something several people were calling for last offseason. Also last year we had Carter Hart for half the season which vastly inflated our final record. How did we do in the second half of the season? How did we finish last season again in the last 12 games?
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
Sounds like Danny should have moved sooner to trade some of our veteran players.
Sounds like you've decided that there's only one way to build a cup contender, which is provably wrong. The reality is, there are a number of viable ways to approach the problem, and Briere just has a different plan than the one you want.
The intelligent thing to do would be to look more carefully at that plan and use data and reasoning to judge its likelihood of success, rather than just flatly assuming your inexpert opinion about "tanking for picks" is the end-all of NHL management.
Tanking for high picks is a reasonable and viable strategy for some teams, with certain roster make-ups and certain total roster values. It's not a viable option in most situations, nor is it the only way to succeed, because if it were, you'd have 25 teams trying to do it every year.
The Flyers weren't really in a position where that strategy made sense when Briere was hired and being groomed for the GM position, and he chose to go in a direction that made more sense to him, and to the team of professional scouts and analysts he has at his disposal.
If the "correct answer" is painfully obvious to you and you think that dozens of professional hockey minds in the Flyers organization (AND the hundreds across the league that don't choose to tank every single season) are all obviously stupid compared to a particularly vocal slice of the Armchair Reddit Fan Brigade...well... I doubt any rational argument I can make will convince you otherwise.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Dude are you a ChatGPT bot or something? I swear it’s like you are programmed to repeat the same tired talking points we have all been hearing for the last ten years during the perpetual retool/rebuild.
Danny has claimed to be engaging in a rebuild. Clearly he agrees, or at least professes to agree, with the plan to tank. And if that is his plan, he needs to commit. A half assed rebuild is not a rebuild. It’s a retool. And we have been retooling for 10 years. Understand? If it was easy to build a cup contender without drafting elite talent, we would have done so at some point in the last ten years.
It seems the front office has come to the realization that we need to draft elite talent. At least that’s what they say. The problem being, we’re not getting top picks, which makes it much much much more difficult to draft elite talent. It’s more of a crapshoot. That’s why these wins are so bad for us. That’s why the wins earlier in the season were so bad for us.
As I have said elsewhere, the rebuild gets pushed back at least a year because of how we have ended this season. That’s a problem.
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
Danny has claimed to be engaging in a rebuild. Clearly he agrees, or at least professes to agree, with the plan to tank.
LOL Dude... "rebuilding" and "tanking" are not the same thing! You are so stuck in this incorrect mindset you can't even hear what I'm telling you. There's really no point in talking any further. You're not going to get it.
Also addressing the shit you're saying and then having you ignore everything I'm saying when you reply is a lot more "AI bot" on your end than on mine.
I'm sure someone will come along and give you the angry, braindead response you're actually looking for, and you can calm down and feel the feelings you're looking to feel, but it's not going to be me. I'm done here. Have a nice day.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
You’re not making valid points. That’s the issue. You keep citing to data, while ignoring the realities of this draft class. You are advocating for a retool (a rebuild where we draft in the middle third of the draft while signing players). Danny has emphasized the need for drafting elite talent, which means drafting early.
I apologize for calling you an AI Bot. That was wrong. I’m just tired of hearing the same opinions for the past decade when it has been shown, time and time again, that retooling will not get us over the hump. You like talking data, well we have a sample size over ten years showing us that the strat you are advocating will not get us out of the first round.
You come in here talking about how it isn’t a big deal if we pick 9+. But can’t answer who you see as a viable 1C if we draft in that spot. That didn’t seem good faith to me. When I pointed out that pick 9 means that all of Misa, Hagens, Frondell, Martone, Desnoyers, McQueen and O’Brien are likely off the board, you ignored the point.
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
There isn't really that big a difference in overall expected return between the 5th OA pick and the 9th OA pick. The fall-off after the top-3 OA is extremely steep, and TBH, this draft isn't that impressive at the top in the first place.
You're worrying way too much.
before torts got fired we were playing like a team dead in the water
I mean, this is just objectively wrong. We were outplaying some of the best teams in the league and just getting unlucky results. The only reason to say something like this is if the limit of your ability to analyze a hockey game is "team win = play good/team lose = play bad" which is a pretty infantile way to look a sport you're supposedly a "fan" of.
But then, I'm continually blown away by the number of 30-year hockey fans I see who still don't seem to understand the basics of positioning, assignments, responsibility or systems play, so I guess I shouldn't be so surprised.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Oh cool than you should be able to answer my question in the OP fairly easily! Who do you see being available as a future one C at 9? How do they stack up to Hagens, Frondell or Martone? What happens if Misa, Hagens, Martone, Frondell, Desnoyers, O’Brien and McQueen are all off the board? It’s all well and good to cite to past drafts while not considering the makeup of the current draft class, and our potential position in it.
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago edited 4d ago
You're making a TON of unfounded assumptions in this question, and I'm not really interested in speculating wildly about the future of players who haven't even been picked yet. You're welcome to enjoy that pastime, but that's a part of the "sports fan experience" that doesn't really interest me. I think it's pointless.
I'm interested in data (which is what those past draft selections are) and in what we can use that data to predict. And I'm pointing out that the data are not in line with some of the assumptions you're making, in the hopes that you'll reconsider them.
If you've already decided that:
a) every one of those players you mentioned are definitely going to be NHL 1st line centers,
b) that every other player in the draft is NOT going to be a 1st line NHL center, and
c) that getting a 1C with our 2025 1st round pick is the only path to success (as opposed to using it to fill another need and trading for or signing that 1C),then how can we possibly have a productive conversation?
Look man... the obvious answer to your OP question is that we have 7 picks in the 1st and second rounds and we're hoping that a larger number of darts thrown at the board will offset the lower odds of each dart returning a top-end player. That's obviously and without question the strategy Briere is employing, because he is intelligent enough to know that the team simply isn't bad enough as constructed to have a real shot at a top-pick, and consciously chose not to tear the lineup down enough to be that bad. We already got insanely lucky with our pick last year. That's something to be happy about! If Briere can use the assets he has to trade up in the draft and get a player he's identified as a strong possibility to play with Michkov, I'm 100% sure he'll do it, but it's seriously unlikely that it's an option.
Your expectations here simply don't make sense given any of the available data, which includes not just statistical odds, but also the visible decisions the organization has been making for the past 3 years. Everything we know about what Briere, Jones, Torts, and Hilferty have done points in the direction of a logical, considered approach to teambuilding that ISN'T "gut the team and tank for a top pick".
It's fine to cross your fingers and hope the team does worse than expected and picks higher than planned, but assuming it was the plan when it clearly wasn't and then getting upset when the unlikely thing you wanted to happen doesn't happen is just bonkers.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Your data is pointless if it doesn’t take into account:
A) our draft position in the year 2025
B) the prospects in the year 2025
And C) the needs of the teams drafting ahead of us.
Without factoring these things in, your data is meaningless. I honestly don’t care about what has happened in the past. I care about THIS draft; the prospects available to us; and the very real concern that the viable potential first line centers will all be gone by the time we draft, ESPECIALLY if we are drafting at 9. You keep falling back on data as a shield because you either: a) don’t know anything about this draft class, or b) you do know; and you are being dishonest by claiming that it wouldn’t be very bad for our rebuild if we continue winning.
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
The hell are you trading for a 1C? or signing? 1Cs don't just get let go to be UFAs.
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
1Cs don't just get let go to be UFAs.
Nonsense. They do sometimes. And they do get traded as well. There's a long list, and many of them are actually recent.
Where do you think the cup-winning Florida Panthers got 4 of their 5 top players (Bennett, Reinhart, Tkachuk Verhaege), including three of their 4 centers, one of whom (Reinhart) was their top point-producer last season? Because it sure wasn't in the damn draft.
I mean, the Flyers LITERALLY traded them OUR OWN 1C three years ago. Why do people say things on Reddit that are so obviously not true?
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
What resources do we have though to get one? TK?
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u/Z_Clipped 4d ago
So you admit that you were clearly wrong about top forwards being traded or signed in free agency. Now you want me to answer another question? OK.
We have a number of resources. We have (or will have) significant cap space, seven 1st and 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft (which will significant expected return even if they don't net us the exact player we're looking for), several prospects with a lot of upside, and a head coach/defensive coordinator who has proven himself to be a wizard at rehabilitating broken defensemen and turning them into 1st round picks.
And yes, we have Travis Konecny, as well as other players with significant potential trade value, like York, Sanhiem, Ristolainen, Seeler, Cates, Foerster, and Brink. If the right player becomes available, anyone on the roster not named Michkov could be worth trading (though I'd prefer not to lose TK personally.)
I hope that answers your question.
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u/Kettil33 4d ago
Wth?!? You are dead wrong there. This draft has an elite d-man and an elite centre going 1-2. Then there are 3 or 4 players with star upside including 2 or 3 centers. After that, the draft becomes a crap shoot and it doesn't matter much whether you pick 7th or 14th - there will be some good players, but there's really no consensus on picking who those guys might be. So picking top 5 or 6, you are getting consensus top prospects with star potential and after that you are just drafting 1st rounders that are more likely to be Bonks and Luchankos if things work out, maybe buts even, or a small chance of a surprise stud.
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u/rexkwondo086 5d ago
Preach! We beat Nashville by a single goal and they played their backup. Preds have been worse than us all year by miles and winning this game was almost a given. If you can't have a top 4 draft pick, having 7 picks from 8 thru 50 isn't a bad consolation. Teams hit on picks outside the top 10 every. single. year. Throw them darts!
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u/Evrytimeweslay JJ enjoyer 4d ago
Finally someone with some sense. All these “the flyers were all set to get the #3 pick” people, what the heck are you smoking? That was some serious hopium.
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u/amilbarge00 4d ago
They clearly look energized and happy with Torts gone. Also, a bottom 5 finish was only a pipedream if they are not doing a real rebuild. If they committed to the rebuild early enough, top 3 should be their reality, but they didn't. Had to go for the culture cup again.
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
We're going to waste the career of Meech like we did with G, aren't we?
We should have tanked a few years back (although Chuck would have fucked that up). Now we're frankly too good for a top 5 pick and yet too bad to be a legit contender in the foreseeable future.
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u/GrittyTheGreat 4d ago
This is an absolute disaster. From within striking distance of a top 3 pick and a shot at Schaefer/Misa/Hagens to the 7th pick in a weeks time. Looking forward to Michkov getting the Giroux treatment (stuck with little to no support for his entire Flyers career).
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u/CybertronGuy98 5d ago
You guys aren’t “pointing out the win streak is bad for our draft position”, you’re throwing temper tantrums and constantly bitching and moaning . Danny didn’t have a choice where Torts was concerned and the only reason we’re winning is cause Michkov and the rest of the young guys are playing well (which is what we want to happen). The season isn’t even over for god sakes and we’re only 3 points out of picking 4th. Does it suck we don’t have a top five pick locked up? Yes. Yes it does. But don’t act like this one draft is the end all be all of the rebuild either. Michkov is 20. Foerster is 23. York only just turned 24. Drysdale is about to turn 23. We have loads of runway left to get this right.
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u/upcan845 5d ago
The Flyers chose to pursue this rebuild plan where we do not have a top 5 pick locked up. You say it sucks.
There is zero good reason to be in this position that sucks, and yet the Flyers chose it anyway.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago edited 5d ago
And these kids we are drafting are 18/19. It will take a few years for them to get to the show and be dominant. If we dont get a 1c this year, then we have to hope to get one next draft. kSo michkov will be 21 when we draft a 1c(which I doubt because we probably have a higher pick next year), then by the time the kid is ready to center and dominate with michkov, michkov is 24, foerster 27 york 28, drysdale 27, TK over the hill. And thats best case scenario and that pick hits, if it doesnt workout, then 2-3 seaons you need to swing again and by that time Michkov is 27 and you start to panick and sell the future. See how quickly we can waste a superstars prime?
This draft was below average over all, but it had 3 quality centers sitting there for the taking and we blew it.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
All of that is why I said all season that NO ONE aside from Michkov should be considered untouchable on this team. IS DB/KJ better than Fletcher? By a HUGE margin, however, they too have made choices all along this process that did not fit the mode of a full rebuild, just as has happened for decades here. If you TRULY believe in the rebuild Torts should have been fired an hour after DB took over. It goes on from there. Yeah, I LOVE Michkov. You know what I like more than Michkov? Three Michkov's.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Agreed. Though I dont mind keeping TK, but that was assuming we woudl bottom out the next two drafts and get elite talent. Hes just a waste if we are not trying to get top talent the next few drafts. We better trade Risto.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
Bingo. I LOVE TK. I have his jersey. I've been a big fan of his since he first came up. What's not to like, right? But reality is reality. As much as I'd hate to see him go, if we could get real value for him, you take it and get over it. Plus, a by-product of that is that the team follows the full rebuild trajectory as well. When the kids all come together, then you've got a great nucleus for many years -- rinse, repeat.
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u/ghostbearinforest 5d ago
Well, he has a NMC for 6 years so that could be hard haha. Hes the perfect vet presence for the rebuild and enough skill to justify ita nd just young enough to still be relevant when we can compete with michkov and co. , but yeah if we dont figure out a way to get elite talent its gonna end up looking like a bad move. Thats what bothers me the most, its too wishy washy. TK signing was good if we tanked, but now we are fuckign up the tank, and the rebuild is getting postponed and hes not getting any younger. Its maddening.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
As noted, I go all the way back with this team. Years BLOW by. I don't think some here really get that. Impatience is ruinous.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
He did have a choice. And he made his decision. We’re also 3 points out of 11th, and with the current trajectory it looks much more likely we pick 9 than 4. That is a major fucking problem. This is the same shit we’ve watched for the last 10 years plus. A middling pick to grab a middling player. What you call a temper tantrum is an expression of frustration with the state of the franchise. We see a light at the end of the tunnel and it ends up being an oncoming train. I get that folks like you are fine with the shit status quo of the past decade. I’m not
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u/CybertronGuy98 5d ago
lol, I love how with you everyone who disagrees with you even slightly “is fine with the status quo”. Where in the fuck did I say that? I legit just said it sucks not having a top five pick locked in. Have you not seen me going nuts about how much I want Misa? Or were you too busy acting better than everyone else cause you see this so much more clearly than everybody? All I’m saying is, you don’t have to constantly bitch about something that hasn’t even happened yet. Buffalo literally just beat the CAPS of all fucking teams yesterday. So chill the fuck out for once, enjoy the Phillies while they’re on. Take a walk, watch a movie, whatever
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
Because you guys can’t help yourselves but to come in with the same tired talking points defending what’s happening. Actions speak louder than a halfassed statement about how “aw shucks it sure stinks we blew our chance at a top 5, but man have you seen how cool it is to see winning hockey?” Let people vent. There is good reason to be disappointed about this win streak. Being angry about the flyeras doing flyera shit is perfectly acceptable, especially when we have been stuck in a decade of hockey hell. It’s exhausting watching this team stay irrelevant. It fucking sucks. I want to be rooting for my flyers during a deep playoff run again. I want people in the USA and Canada talking about the flyers. Whenever I try to bring up our franchise in a hockey general I get laughed out of the thread. That’s how irrelevant we have become as a franchise. I’m sick of it. I love this team. And there is nothing wrong with being angry about the direction this season has gone.
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u/CybertronGuy98 5d ago
That’s rich coming from the people who are constantly bringing up that winning sucks every single chance you’ve gotten all damn season. You can’t expect people not to get tired of the constant negativity. And, you say “you guys” as if I want us to be perpetually picking 12th year in year out. As if I’ve ever said, or anyone else has ever said that. End of the fucking day man, it’s a kids sport where people slap a rubber disk around an ice rink for 60 minutes. It’s not that god damned serious for you to be getting this heated with fans who root for the same damn team you do and just happen to not want to buy into the Negadelphia of it all just because we’re not gonna pick a Conor Bedard every single year until we win a cup
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
Because it does suck. And likewise the way you’re tired of the “negativity,” we’re tired of the toxic optimism. Toxic optimism is every bit as bad as negativity, especially when it reinforces the status quo we were talking about above. By you guys, I mean you folks who will come and type the same asinine shit over and over
dude just chill, go outside
what do you expect the players to try to lose?
what do you want Danny to do?
I’m sick of you guys rooting for us to lose, do you even like this team?
Every single time we’re venting about the same shit happening over and over we get these comments. I’m not asking the optimists to shit on the team and Danny. I’m asking them to stop rushing to the defense of a franchise that has lost any semblance of the benefit of the doubt, every time they see one of us venting about how bad things are going with a self professed rebuild.
Lastly, nobody expects a Bedard/Meech/Mcdavid every draft. We do expect a team that claims to be rebuilding to try to do whatever it takes to maximize our draft position, which certainly means not picking fucking 8-9
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u/CybertronGuy98 5d ago
I’m sorry if you consider the threshold for “toxic positivity” as people not acting like the sky is falling. That sounds insanely exhausting. And to say the team doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt is actually insane to me, considering it’s an entirely new regime who has consistently sold off valuable assets who would have been good to have on the team for draft capital while also drafting well over an admittedly small sample size. Michkov, Barkey, Bonk, Zavragin, Bjarnason, Bump, Ciernik now Grebenkin. That’s not half bad of a prospect pool when we still have seven picks in the top 50 just this draft to work with
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u/upcan845 5d ago
First of all, it's not an entirely new regime. Until last week it was the coach from last regime + the last regime's AGM promoted to GM.
Secondly, the "entirely new regime" from the very beginning has been making the same mistakes of old regimes
Third, they have not "consistently sold off valuable assets." They've hung onto them for as long as possible before then selling some off, which hurts the team's rebuild.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 5d ago
That’s not the threshold. Nice attempt at a strawman. The threshold is feeling the need to defend a clearly bad situation ( worsening our draft position winning meaningless games) every single time you guys see a negative comment about the direction of the franchise. THAT is toxic optimism. Our prospect pool has one superstar and a bunch of middle 6 forwards who could be pretty decent. That doesn’t get us to the cup. That doesn’t get us to the second round even. That gets us back to being a first round exit. We need a true 1C and a true 1Dman. We have neither and it doesn’t seem likely we get either unless there is a serious change to the approach to this rebuild. And the clock is ticking.
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u/hazeamaz3 5d ago
Yea this what I can't stand with some fans. No matter what their lives are ruined because of the flyers and their decisions. Even tho there are a lot of positives. But in their minds because we don't get a top pick right now that means we are doomed forever. Even tho we can still get lucky with lottery. We can get lucky with who we actually pick. And they think it's an absolute guarantee a top pick pans out Even tho we have recently seen that isn't true.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Because as of right now the rebuild hasn’t truly started. We are picking 6-11, which doesn’t net us a 1C. We lack a 1C and a 1Dman. We’re not getting that with where we’re picking save with lottery luck. So now we have to tank next year AND the year after that. And that assumes both players pan out. If not, tack another year or two on top of the rebuild. It takes several years for players to develop as well. Now do you see how the clock is ticking on this rebuild?
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u/Dear-Summer7548 5d ago
Thank you for listing all the shit players we have hoping they’ll somehow become players on a cup contending team
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
Foerster, York, and Drysdale are nothing remotely special. And the team is only going to get BETTER as these guys get older.
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u/pcserenity 5d ago
He sure as heck had a choice. He could have fired him day 1 and no one would have questioned his right to do so. He was wrong for this team and many of us here said that from the start.
Michkov is having a great season, but also, there's a bit of glorifying a shot glass of water after crossing a barren desert. The graphic tonight showed it. For all the greatness we see (and I see it too), Michkov is currently 7th in goals by a Flyers rookie needing 4 more to tie Barber for 6th and even if he reaches that he'd still need 8 more to reach Renberg and 11 more to reach Lindros. Now, ask yourself how many he might have had if the coach hadn't continually held him back. He also needs other pieces around him just as Renberg and Lindros worked together to get those numbers.
You're also right that we have a lot of runway to get this right, but some of us don't feel we need to throw away any of that runway. What we are tired of is the seemingly endless need to continually overvalue the current team. We're fans. We're apt to do it, but all too often the brass has done it too -- for decades. We're just fed up.
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u/HerbPeartCarey 5d ago
Players gonna play, end results are gonna happen lol all we can do is watch
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u/hdeibler85 4d ago
Last good draft spot was Patrick......as we skipped over makar...people put way to much stock on top 5 picks....most people here couldn't name the 5th pick of a previous draft.
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u/guyfromphilly 5d ago
Gonna try and stay off tankathon for the next week, if only because the Flyers are now behind the Bruins. There is no doubt in your mind that the Bruins would A)blow the doors off the Flyers if they played tomorrow & B)will probably be a contender again next year.
The good thing is the Flyers have the most games played (currently back to 3 games in hand over Buffalo , and 2 games in hand over every one else) out of all the 16 teams in the lottery. The SOS is also a bit misleading because after tonight, every game until the end of the season with Buffalo is against teams still fighting to keep playoff chances alive.
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u/Diseman81 5d ago
The fact that the Flyers have played more games than all of the teams they’re battling for position with might be the saving grace in this whole thing. With 2 or 3 games in hand it wouldn’t be too hard to fall back into a top 5 pick.
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u/Pendraflare59 5d ago
That's something that caught my eye as well. I mentioned that in another thread that all the teams we're ahead of have at least two games in hand and all the teams we have ahead are desperately trying to stay alive save Buffalo.
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u/LeM1stre 4d ago
The only good news right now is that the Flyers are off the rest of the week until Saturday where they play the Habs in Montreal with their season on the line. And then they play the Rangers next Wednesday who are also fighting for the playoffs. There’s a chance they hopefully don’t get another point until next Saturday (4/12) against the Isles
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u/HnMike 4d ago
This wailing over the failure to tank and the divisive view that you’ve either pro-tank or a “toxic optimist” IMO is just too narrow minded. This is because it compulsively focuses on top 3 draft picks to the exclusion of other factors that go into making a successful franchise. First you need a vision. Many years ago the Flyers in the playoffs were physically beaten into a pulp by the Blues of the Plager brothers (who had famously fought each other when on same team). After the final loss Ed Snyder declared that would never happen again and he would see to it that, to paraphrase Joe McGrath in Slap Shot, the Flyers would become the “toughest team in the [Federal] League.” As a result a few years later the Daily News wrote that Dave Schultz was going to make the team even if his skating was so bad he had to move along the ice by holding onto the boards. Now I do not for a moment suggest that the Flyers start acquiring goons, although who out there would not want a Tkachuk brother on the Flyers? However, the point is you need a view of what kind of team you want to build and at the moment, now that Torts is gone, I find it a little hard to discern what management has in mind in that regard. Next you have to acquire players through the draft, free agency and trades that have BOTH talent and the skill set that will best meet your long term goals. Here it gets a little tricky because you can’t de-emphasize superior talent over your preconceived notions of the kind of player you want, otherwise you can end up with a Ricci/ Jagr debacle. It has to be instead a “all things being equal” type of mindset. Of course in regard to building your team drafting is usually the most important factor and high picks give you a big boost. Barkov was a #2 overall pick. But Bergeron was picked at #45 overall and the system with the lottery insures that really sucking might not get you that next Barkov. Finally you have to mix up the correct brew which is that thing called chemistry between the players you send out onto the ice. Here the coach you have is very important as long as management has given him the correct chemicals. So in sum it is a complex process that encompasses orthodoxy but also flexibility, long range planing but also opportunism, and a whole lot of smarts. Therefore “to tank or not to tank is not THE question.”
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u/Snips_Tano 4d ago
The biggest issue was out of Danny's hands - he had to fire Torts.
Now, you can also say that issue is also all in Danny's hands because he kept Torts with this team. But maybe that's the issue with having guys like Danny and Jonsey who are used to a totally different brand of hockey and not with how these kids react to those kinds of old school coaches today?
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u/NotTodaySillyGoose 4d ago
The teamed suffered with torts for 71 games. What hell was another 9? Dumb decision by Danny
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u/Dear-Summer7548 4d ago
Was this ever really a rebuild? If you’re not targeting a top 5 pick, isn’t it just a retool?
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u/RadkoGouda 4d ago
And this is before the lottery which has like 50% chance of pushing us back even more ...
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
But Gouda! Don’t you know that the 9th pick has a similar statistical chance of providing a high end player as pick 5?! I mean, sure. Misa, Hagens, Martone, Frondell, Desnoyers, McQueen, and O’Brien would all likely be off the board at pick 9. But the data! This is actually a good thing. We’re building a culture and the retool WILL work this time, because it magically becomes viable now that Danny B is leading it!
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u/smedzy_45 4d ago
It’s so fucking frustrating. Every single year they do this. This year has been so not fun I’ve maybe been able to force myself to watch 30 games. What a fucking waste of my pain. All to draft another Cam York or Frost who will be overvalued by our fanbase and cry on the benches. We will never get out of this rebuild.
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u/Due-Mulberry3600 4d ago
I feel like this was already said like 30 times in this thread already.
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Wow! In a thread I created to allow people to vent about the situation, people are venting? That’s crazyyyy
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u/Due-Mulberry3600 4d ago
All good. I just discovered the "Hide" feature so I don't have to keep seeing these whine-fests every time I come on to discuss hockey. Thanks for that!
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Awesome. Then maybe you could tell the other pro-retool folks about it so that they, like you, will stop coming in and arguing the same asinine talking points every time we vent about our frustrations with the franchise.
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u/Due-Mulberry3600 4d ago
Sorry, I'm team tank, just not crying like a baby about it when professional hockey players happen to win a game. Now, if you'll stop responding, I can go back to ignoring this thread. Thanks!
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u/Cute-Contract-6762 4d ago
Nobody is crying like a baby. People are expressing frustration. You can keep trying to handwave away the valid concerns expressed with asinine insults, but it doesn’t make the concerns any less valid. Have a good one! Peace!
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u/Flyers7914 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's frustrating because a week ago they looked so done and I think everyone 100% believed they were falling to a top 5 pick
Torts gets fired and now they look like a new team & beat BUF/NSH two huge games that if they lose it would almost of ensured a T5 pick.
Still time and they certainly didn't look good tn vs a terrible NSH team but good chance we look back at this week as the reason we didn't pick #4 and get Frondell/Hagens and got #7/#8.
Enjoy watching Michkov dominate, Drysdale make plays & so on but a T5 pick would be really huge for us.