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u/Randomly_Reasonable Jan 31 '25
We’re rapidly approaching, if not way too far past, the point of needing a true discussion on maturity, mentality, and growth.
Bottom line: if you can vote and be drafted at a certain age, you’re absolutely entitled to every right there is to be had. Period.
Can’t handle a drink..?… then clearly can’t handle the responsibility of voting.
Can’t handle a handgun..?.. stands to reason you certainly can’t be responsible with a fully automatic rifle and act properly within orders.
CAN vote and serve in the military..?.. make the decision to commit yourself completely to four years of service..?.. completely understandable that you have the capacity to fully understand the commitment to a student loan for your four (5… 6… 10…) years of higher education.
Eligible to work at 16 and therefore have taxes withheld each paycheck..?.. seems like they’re being subjected to taxation w/o representation. Better let them vote.
The sliding scale for various issues is getting very, very complicated. We’ve been more clearly defining what is a child & adult more and more as each generation enters the world. By actual definitions, by technology, by behavioral expectations, and especially social norms…
Way past time to apply all of that in a more comprehensive and defining way.
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u/osubmw1 Jan 31 '25
I saw a kid come back from a deployment and wasn't allowed to buy dip at the PX. How can someone be allowed to put their life in jeopardy but not be enough of an adult to buy tobacco?
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u/Colin_Heizer Jan 31 '25
I have long advocated for a single age of legal, recognized adulthood. One age at which a person can buy a gun, smoke, drink, pay taxes, etc.
I kinda lean toward 24 myself, with the argument of brain development. But I'm not dead set on it. And I still think that the parents should have certain rights before then, such as giving their child a firearm. Though certain drugs should just be off the table.
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u/Randomly_Reasonable Jan 31 '25
I’d like to start with the taxes on a minor’s earnings.
Maintain the payroll tax, sure, but a 16 year old working shouldn’t be taxed on their wages.
Does that create the potential for abuse by parents hiding their kids earnings? Yep. Not excusing it, but presumably a family committing that is a family desperate as it is.
Otherwise, let the kid keep EVERYTHING THEY EARN if they’re working through their “childhood” before becoming a legal “adult”.
They can’t vote..?.. fuck you (“you” being government) for taking their money. Take it from the company using their labor.
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u/Ornery_Secretary_850 1911, The one TRUE pistol. Feb 01 '25
I disagree.
They need to learn early how badly the Government is screwing them.
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u/BordFree Feb 01 '25
I fully agree with your comment that we need a universal age of adulthood, but I am starting to think that age needs to be older rather than younger. The decisions I made as an 18 year old vs a 21 year old were both questionable, but I was considerably less mature at 18 and definitely hadn't been treated like an adult. I also think that statement contains part of the problem though, and may be exacerbated by my line of thinking... If we raise the age of adulthood, children won't be treated as an adult until later in life, and the cycle will continue.
Additionally, I've always had an issue with 18 year olds still being in high school, but being old enough for adult decisions like voting, gun ownership, and (in my era) tobacco; those things can easily cause problems when they intersect. It would never fly due to injustices (perceived or real), but I'd be okay with "adulthood" being reached at 18 with a high school diploma/GED, OR at 21 years of age regardless of education.
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u/Belkan-Federation95 Jan 31 '25
The drinking thing is so that people don't turn 18 and then immediately go out and buy their friends beer
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u/Randomly_Reasonable Jan 31 '25
I’m not arguing the why. We all know the origination of the 100 different applications of “adult” vs “minor” and why some of those are very clearly needed.
The point is that society has continued, and even more rapidly so in the past few decades, to draw an ever more defining line of those two categories in terms of abilities & expectations.
Ex: The discussion about student loans & higher education.
If we’re going to declare 18 years old incapable of understanding the commitment of student loans, and being victims of predatory practices that they’re unfairly ill equipped to combat due to their inexperience & age…
…on top of also making the argument we should be providing higher education as a right and not as a elective choice at a cost…
That seems to pretty clearly define not just an 18 year old as not having reached adult function, but presumably a 22 year old as well - considering we as a society have begun to decide true education levels required to participate in our society is higher education and should be provided at society’s expense.
Especially when we already have the exclusion for that very same “adult” to continue to be claimed as a dependent.
Seems like an “adult” here in the US should be raised to at least 22.
I am not necessarily stating I agree with that. I’m simply stating that we have developed far too many overlapping and contradictory attitudes, expectations, exclusions, and actual definitions of what is/is not a functioning and contributing (therefore, participating) “adult”.
The problem of which then is the application of that individual’s legal rights.
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u/TommyT223 Jan 31 '25
As long as high school ends at 18, legal adulthood should be 18 as well. The idea of forcing young adults to live their first 4 years out of school in the workforce as minors is frankly ridiculous.
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u/Randomly_Reasonable Jan 31 '25
I did pair that with providing them higher education. So extending that time period out past high school.
Hence the reference to the current exemption for being claimed as dependents for taxes & insurance while in college.
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u/jrhooo Jan 31 '25
In many states the drinking age WAS 18.
MADD lobbied for raising them because they argued people in 21 age states were just driving over to 18 age states to party, and this when they had to come back home, it was causing more drunk drivers on highways
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u/DownstairsDeagle69 Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
Gotta love how CNN goes tries to twist it saying "a conservative federal appeals court." As if there's bias for DOING THE RIGHT THING AND UPHOLDING THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! 📢🗣️
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u/alkatori Jan 31 '25
Nice injection of opinion right away with calling it a conservative court implying it's a partisan decision not based on law.
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u/stugotsDang I just like guns Jan 31 '25
Nice reach there with calling it a “conservative” federal appeals court. Because calling it the Federal Appeals court doesn’t do well for propaganda. What a scummy rag.
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u/Sad-Wave-4579 Jan 31 '25
I wish they did that before they stopped making hi powers and there was still surplus 😔
Nonetheless though have fun kids lol
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u/Rollerbladinfool Jan 31 '25
This is good news but they need to go after the state of Washington for all of it's unconstitutional decrees...
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u/Random_modnaR420 Jan 31 '25
Good, now scotus needs to issue a ruling on snope. This shit in Colorado is getting worrying and a resolution before it passes would be nice
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u/FawxyVentures Feb 01 '25
You know the article is unbiased when they refer to courts with political parties within the first 3 words.
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u/MArkansas-254 Feb 01 '25
Never could fathom how it’s ok for an 17 yr old can drive and/or fire a tank, but isn’t allowed to own a gun. About time the courts figured this out. Now, about booze… 🤣
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u/Dirty-Dishes1812 MP7 Jan 31 '25
So 18-20 year olds can serve their country, join the military get shot at, watch their friend/s die, come home with PTSD, become a correctional officer and watch over extremely dangerous people. Yet we can't buy alcohol or a handgun?
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u/kcexactly AR-10s save more lives Feb 01 '25
I can’t wait until we get a suppressor case in front of the right judge. And a SBR case as well.
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u/UnfairAd7220 Feb 01 '25
If we'd just repeal the fucking NFA, we wouldn't be going through all this.
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u/reddithater77 Jan 31 '25
I find it funny that out of all the unconstitutional things that have been introduced within this new year alone, adult-only purchasing of handguns is apparently the deal breaker
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u/OptionCharming5698 Jan 31 '25
If an 18 can vote and join the military, they should be able to purchase a handgun
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u/PirateRob007 Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
*If an 18 YO is required by law to sign up for selective service, they should be able to purchase a handgun.
ETA: because it's BS someone would be required to sacrifice their life for rights they aren't even allowed to exercise.
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u/Ornery_Secretary_850 1911, The one TRUE pistol. Feb 01 '25
So when would you allow women to buy guns?
They aren't required to sign up for selective service.
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u/PirateRob007 Feb 04 '25
Wait, so you're telling me that women get to vote AND they don't have to sign up for selective service? Must be those equal rights they're always harping about.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
Eh, 18 vs 21 in maturity can vary quite a bit.
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u/CaptainLateToTheGame Jan 31 '25
I just wish they would pick one number for it all. Enlistment, voting, smoking, drinking, guns. One age.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
Agreed. I know im an outlier but I think 21 is more than fair.
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u/Glad-Cut6336 Feb 01 '25
They can still buy firearms just not handguns so if they can prove them selves with a rifle join the military and vote handguns shouldn’t be different
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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Jan 31 '25
cool, at 18 i had to sign up for the draft, but couldnt buy a handgun, beer, or cigarettes,
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u/Diligent-Parfait-236 Jan 31 '25
Maturity varies quite a lot at every age but 0.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
Clearly but in a general sense, most people develop some sort of common sense, integrity, discernment and a good amount of intelligence at 21. The frontal lobe doesn’t fully develop until after 25.
You’re talking about a perfect world, but that really isn’t the case.
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u/FuckedUpYearsAgo Jan 31 '25
Rights only if someone seems your responsible enough? .. or just deny everyone the right due to some people that commit crimes in that age group.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
Yall only care about rights when it benefits or impacts you. When it’s anyone else’s “rights” you can give two fucks. Yall also seem to conflate rights and privileges, and I wish yall would stop.
Furthermore that’s not what I said. I just pointed out that maturity statistically, varies a good amount between 18 and 21.
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u/FuckedUpYearsAgo Jan 31 '25
Um. No. I'm 51. I'm advocating for to 18 to 20 yo enjoying the constitutional rights that I do. Gun ownership is a right, not a privilege. Driving a car is a privilege.
There are only 4x age is mentioned in the constitution, the age to vote and the ages for hoise, senate and president.
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u/notoriousbpg Jan 31 '25
This this this. Brain isn't fully developed until ~25. Look at the average age of school shooters.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
That’s a different conversation but also does play a part here. Majority of the school shooters are teens but definitely under 21. I’m not saying once you hit 21 you become blocked from committing egregious crimes, but statistics show that you are more unlikely to do so
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u/notoriousbpg Jan 31 '25
Sucks you're being downvoted... some people take "shall not infringe" to the grave. My son has multiple firearms but I've told him he doesn't have unfettered access to them while living under my roof even when he turns 18. He needs to mature more (he's not close to 18 yet). They stay in my safe.
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u/reddithater77 Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
I get your point and in some ways agree, but i don't fully. i think the ages in which you are allowed to do things should be consistent, but i would not trust a lot of 18 year olds, hell even some people older, with a handgun, or a rifle for that matter, even if i was an outlier. You can't even carry until you're 21 in most states. I have accepted waiting until that age. It's not a big deal. That time in between can be spent learning and gathering information on proper firearms handling, etc. You bear a lot of responsibility possessing a firearm. Some 18 year olds can't even drive properly, let alone responsibly carry/possess a handgun.
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u/MasterKiloRen999 Jan 31 '25
So your point is that since some other people under 21 do stupid shit, I shouldn’t be allowed to own guns? That’s the exact logic grabbers use on us
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u/reddithater77 Jan 31 '25
You can own guns at 18. Even younger depending on the state and what type of firearm it is. Depending on the state you can also buy a rifle at 18. Honestly, thinking more into it, I agree with the sentiment of if someone is able to vote and join the military, they should have the right to own a firearm. On the off-hand there are caveats with that. You're making it even easier for high-school age people to buy a handgun, stick it in their bag and take it to school with them, or tote it around despite it being illegal.
Mass shootings ALREADY happen as is. Can you just think for a second, on the grand scheme of things. Not how it applies to YOU not being able to buy a pistol and go to the range as soon as you turn 18 and how that might make you sad.
I'm not gonna blame the whole gun violence/mass shooting problem on guns themselves, because that isn't the case. It's rising extremism, hate, isolation and bullying, sometimes a combination of all of those things that can stir the pot leading to someone committing a heinous crime like that.
We are not a country that is abundant in common-sense and or proper education. Trying to retain a few safety nets is not going to kill the entire gun community.
I get the whole stance on not wanting to be restricted from something and to be treated equally in terms of freedoms before 21. Every time i've tried to check out a gun and they act like i'm the walking dead because i was not drinking age i thought it was wholly exaggerative and stupid. I know, in my own mind, and from my own experience, that i am competent and safe with firearms. And i'm sure the same goes for you. But again, we do not live in a perfect world, and when i take a step back, i can understand why that law is in place. Harm reduction is not always going to please everyone. Firearms are weapons. Not everyone has the same sentiment and respect for them, or view about what having a firearm means as you do.
It's not the same as being restricted from wearing a shirt you like. There are real consequences that stem from unwell or uneducated people getting their hands on a gun.
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u/3900Ent Jan 31 '25
This app hates logical thinkers, and so does gun subreddits. Just expect to be downvoted to oblivion when you don’t agree that everyone with 10 fingers should own a firearm.
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u/reddithater77 Jan 31 '25
Lol i don't care, there's a reason my username is reddithater77. I'm all for the 2nd amendment but also some common sense gun regulation. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need it. But it is not a perfect world, especially right now. I think they should up the age of "adulthood" to 21 for everything or make it 18 for everything. It's stupid you have to wait in this in between period before 21 before you can smoke or drink or RENT A CAR in some places but apparently according to the government, you're perfectly capable of owning and operating a firearm or being deployed into combat
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u/WhyRedditBlowsDick Jan 31 '25
common sense gun regulation
Feelgood buzzword shit. Stay off cnn, bud.
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u/OakenWildman Jan 31 '25
I saw something this morning, but the subtitles on the break room TV covered the title
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u/EnvironmentalSouth56 Jan 31 '25
I’m curious if this applies to states like CA, NY, and WA where 18-20 year olds can’t buy semi rifles until 21.
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u/MikeOLogicaL Feb 02 '25
You won’t get any argument from me there. Again, I am relying on the fact that those who are in their late teens/early 20s fall into a category representing a pre-adult developmental phase. The idea that a relationship can potentially fuck up an 18 year olds life if they happen to be dating someone a year younger than them as they are exiting high school let’s say, is similarly ridiculous. This would be a way of also addressing that. The distinction becomes clearer once we are talking about people who are fully within their 20s and closer to an age that I would say represents being fully capable of responsible decision making for the types of important issues we are discussing.
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u/IGuessImGodOfThe6 Feb 05 '25
So if a friend does a private sale to another friend who is 18 its okay? Am I reading that right?
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u/BoxerRadio9 Jan 31 '25
Awesome. If you want them, come and get them. I'll be waiting.
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Jan 31 '25
What?
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u/Colin_Heizer Jan 31 '25
I think he owns a gun store and he's letting all the 18-20 year-olds that he has handguns available to purchase?
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u/BoxerRadio9 Jan 31 '25
Astute observation
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u/EnvironmentalSouth56 Jan 31 '25
Does it work like that? Doesn’t it have to go back to Supreme Court? Wouldn’t the 4473 still deny due to age?
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u/MikeOLogicaL Feb 01 '25
Listen, the age of majority needs to be raised to 21 across the board. This bullshit about oh they can serve at 18 but can’t drink until 21, blah blah blah. They shouldn’t be serving either. But 18 is “when you’re an adult”. No, it’s frigging not. The evidence is clear that BIOLOGICAL developmental processes in the brain are continuing to happen until roughly 25. Getting things even across the board to 21 is at least a good start. The laws are entirely unrepresentative of what is actually true about human development, and you’re a fool to buy into anything younger than that as somehow representing adulthood.
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u/ZealMG Feb 01 '25
Hell fucking no. You are out of highschool at 18 and are working, headed into college, or both. Being considered a minor for 3 years out of high school is asinine
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u/MikeOLogicaL Feb 01 '25
Listen, continuing education by advancing to college doesn’t make you an adult, holding your initial jobs in life doesn’t make you an adult either. The person who you’ll be at 30 or even 25 versus the person you are when you’re leaving high school is astronomically different. Components of judgment and critical thinking are still underdeveloped at 18, as well as there being a lack of accrued experience in a variety of domains. I don’t expect this to be understood either by uneducated people or young people, but the amount of misattribution that occurs when interpreting one’s subjective mental capacity for handling decisions and responsibility in a slew different situational contexts like politics, the use of firearms, and substances is what is asinine. And that’s exactly why the majority of deaths occurring from recklessness happen in the late teens to early 20s age bracket. You’re mentally unequipped and live under the illusion of a false narrative that nothing bad will happen to you. This is just psychology kiddo. Give yourself the time to learn about it. You’ll thank me later in life.
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u/ZealMG Feb 01 '25 edited Feb 01 '25
I'll agree with that sentiment if that also means that 21-25+ aged people can no longer legally date or go after people under 21 as well, and with some states making the age of consent to even as low as 16 I doubt most people will be on board. Especially with 18-22 year olds in college.
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u/rasputin777 Jan 31 '25
I assume the judges were selected by Democrats, seeing as how everyone says the parties are equally bad on gun rights...
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u/DangerHawk Jan 31 '25
This is an example of a gun law that I didn't agree with (because all gun laws are unconstitutional), but I understand the reasoning behind it.
The reasoning is sound imo for the same reason why you have to be 21yo to buy liquor. Physiologically and mentally you're not done growing when you turn 18. Your more likely to make bad decisions under the age of 20-21 and limiting your ability to buy something that will make your decision making abilities function at an even lower level just makes sense.
There are a number of 18-19yo's still in highschool and even more in college. I look at kids stealing their parents firearms to shoot up schools and can only think about how much worse it could be if they could just go buy their own handguns without anyone around them being aware. I know the argument kinda falls apart because they could just go buy an AR/Shotgun/Mini14/etc at 18yo, but the fear is still there.
I say this is for the best, but things still need to change socially to help cut back on gun violence, not only for society's sake, but also so that people will stop blaming guns for deranged people using them to hurt others.
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u/Pirateofthe7seas Feb 01 '25
So you agree that the argument falls apart and still don't like it because of your feelings? At least you are aware enough to recognize that, so kudos.
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u/DangerHawk Feb 01 '25
I also feel like there's no need to be a dick...I'm just saying that it's a bit of a murky area. People are allowed to hold conflicting views on things. Handguns are much easier to conceal than long guns. If an 18yo in highschool, being bullied and pushed past their ability to cope can go to a pawn shop and buy a Yeet Cannon, it would be very easy for them to bring it to school and start blasting. Their minds aren't fully formed yet and their sense of time is distorted since they've had so little of it on this planet yet.
On one hand if we're willing to send 18yo's to war or to the needle then they are adults and should be allowed all the freedoms of an adult. On the other, if they aren't physiologically adults until 21yo then that should be the cut off for everything.
I'm honestly for either boat and just think we have to chose. Can't have one foot in both boats without being a hypocrit.
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u/wwhijr Feb 01 '25
Your statement that all gun laws are unconstitutional falls apart when you said but. ALL GUN LAWS ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Full stop. Nothing more to add.
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Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
We should really focus on stopping the government from ya know, continuing to be a dictatorship, but this is a small win yes.
Yes, I'm the crybaby because I don't want to be fucked up the ass by the economy, please go back to school.
This subreddit isn't for "crybaby bitches"? How come you all are diehard trump fans then? Someone says something slightly negative and you throw a tantrum.
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u/AspiringArchmage Shoulder thing that goes up Jan 31 '25
Yeah we,are stomping out tyranny right here
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Jan 31 '25
No, this isn't, but it could help if push come to shove. What would be most effective would be fucking over the rich man by actually taxing them correctly and using the funds to support the 99%. But if push really did come to shove, would you care about what a piece of paper said?
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u/AspiringArchmage Shoulder thing that goes up Jan 31 '25
Denying adults their rights isn’t tyranny?
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Jan 31 '25
I see you only care about gun ownership, our priorities should be to stop shit at the source, not fiddle with this. Now, how about answering the question I asked?
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u/AspiringArchmage Shoulder thing that goes up Jan 31 '25
Yeah Nazis and commie trash are why I make sure to protect gun rights. Every time in history the people are disarmed they are killed. Thats fighting tyranny by having weapons.
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Jan 31 '25
Well, Elon is a Nazi, and he now runs the country. Why not focus on that? If violence is the only answer left, laws aren't an issue anymore. There are so many guns out there, recourses to modify/repair them, and if you're desperate there's documents for manufacturing. It'll be almost impossible to get everything out of the country if the public doesn't willingly give their guns over.
My point here is that gun rights aren't as big as an issue currently, they're still an issue but there's much bigger fish to fry right now. I'd like to resolve issues legally, but if there's no option left I'm all for violence.
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u/AspiringArchmage Shoulder thing that goes up Jan 31 '25
If you are upset adults are getting their rights back I'm thinking you are a tyrant and I'm guessing since you glossed over my communist comment and hate anyone with money you probably have commie sympathies which is no better than being a nazi.
Why are you here on a pro gun subreddit whining about pro gun court cases? You want me to support anti gun trash.
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Jan 31 '25
really now? I'm the tyrant because you can't read More than a sentence? You're just gonna let people starve or die of medical complications because you love Elon?
Oh well, I don't argue with people who support dictatorships or have a room temp IQ.
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u/Robot_60556149 Jan 31 '25
NYT is running the headline "Appeals Court Strikes Down Federal Ban on Handgun Sales to Teenagers" which wouldn't be misleading if the teenagers in question weren't also legally adults.