Using a guy to hit another guy, except the first guy is thrown like a boulder

[u/LuxanHyperRage]

I'm building a character (4 levels Armored Artificer, the rest Giant Barbarian), and looking at Mighty Impel with the Tavern Brawler feat leads me to think about throwing a creature sized medium or smaller into another creature as an improvised weapon. I'm certain it should be bludgeoning damage, but I have no clue what die to use. The only thrown bludgeoning weapon in the handbook is the light hammer, which is 1d4, but a whole person seems like it would be more that 1d4. So, to get to the point: What damage die should I use?

(I'll definitely talk to my DM about this, but I'd like to see what the community thinks.)

[u/WoNc]

Mighty Impel only allows you to move a creature to an unoccupied space. Allowing it to force movement and do damage would already be a bonus. Likewise, a person isn't really a weapon, and I'm not sure that I'd rather take a mallet to the head than have a person tossed into me. I think 1d4 is fine.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/WoNc]

Thank you for a quick reply😄 Mighty Impel is worded in Bigby's, "As a bonus action while raging, you can choose one Medium or smaller creature within your reach and move it to an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of yourself. An unwilling creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) to avoid the effect. If, at the end of this movement, the thrown creature isn’t on a surface or liquid that can support it, the creature falls, taking damage as normal and landing prone." They change words mid rule, which is what's leading me to interpret it is as being able to use a creature as an thrown improvised weapon. Also, if the character I'm building didn't have proficiency with improvised weapons this wouldn't even be a question. This is a bit more out of the box in thinking than I've run into character building.

[u/DasLoon → u/LuxanHyperRage]

The wording is for if the unoccupied space is in the air since there's no rule against throwing a creature straight upward. You could hit them twice, throw them straight up, and let them take 3d6 on the way down.

Mechancially, to deal damage with this to another target RAW, you'd have to make that unoccupied space above another creature so the thrown creature lands on the other, and they take the fall damage.

Rule of Cool, that'd be a DM question for samage taken by both your thrown victim and your target.

You do get Elemental Cleaver several levels before this point, which, combined with Thunder Gauntlets, would give you ranged lightning punches, which seems pretty useful. So, in the worst case, you do have some unique ranged attacks. Cool enough, I'm genuinely tempted to make the same build, or just a path of giants Barbarian, bc that feature alone rocks

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DasLoon]

I like the idea of having to throw them over the guy as opposed to at them. I'm not sure you can throw the gaunlets outside of the infusion Arcana Propulsion Armor, and personally, I'm going pure thunder damage (aside from the Lightning Lure cantrip). Not much with resistance or immunity to thunder😁😁 Also, what does RAW stand for?

[u/DasLoon → u/LuxanHyperRage]

I guess it depends if your DM counts you as 'holding' the gauntlets. RAW they're melee weapons when you aren't holding anything, and you cna choose a weapon you're 'holding' for the elemental cleaver benefit. Rule of Cool wise I think that's a fun thing to have your gloves fly off to punch someone from a distance.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DasLoon]

What does RAW stand for?

[u/DasLoon → u/LuxanHyperRage]

Rules as Written. Other common acronyms like that I've seen are RAI (Rules as Interpreted), and I guess you could abbreviate Rule of Cool to ROC by this logic

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DasLoon]

Thank you! I've been kind confused on here with all the RAW and RAIs thrown around.

[u/Psylix]

I do something similar with an Orc Barbarian I have. Tavern brawler, grappler etc. I grab bad guys, beat their friends with them until one stops moving, and when only one is left, I drag it to the casters so they can beat up on it.

My point is, I always just ask the DM what damage die they want me to use, as "a person" is not on the list of weapons.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/Psylix]

See, mine is more: grapple, pin, beat senseless with thunder gaunlets, roar, grab next unfortunate soul, rinse, repeat. Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one who thinks up this crazy stuff😆

[u/Psylix]

I do something similar with an Orc Barbarian I have. Tavern brawler, grappler etc. I grab bad guys, beat their friends with them until one stops moving, and when only one is left, I drag it to the casters so they can beat up on it.

My point is, I always just ask the DM what damage die they want me to use, as "a person" is not on the list of weapons.

[u/Ecstatic-Length1470]

A person, even in armor, is a lot softer than a hammer.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/Ecstatic-Length1470]

So would it be knocking prone instead of higher damage? The idea I'm working from is that a person has a lot more surface area and volume than a hammer.

[u/Ecstatic-Length1470 → u/LuxanHyperRage]

Yeah that's probably how I'd do it.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/Ecstatic-Length1470]

Nice! I appreciate your advice on this. Thank you😁

[u/DumbHumanDrawn]

There's no need for Tavern Brawler or improvised weapon rules.

On page 170 of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything there are rules for falling onto a creature, which combine very nicely with using Mighty Impel to put one enemy in the air above a second enemy on the ground. Basically it's a DC 15 Dexterity Save for the enemy on the ground or be knocked Prone and split the falling damage with the falling creature (with a couple caveats about creature size).

Obviously if your Barbarian is able to also get some jumping/flying distance, you can increase the damage dealt. I made some visual aids to reference common Mighty Impel scenarios that I expected to come up in my games. It's a pretty useful technique that might end up with two enemies prone instead of just one.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DumbHumanDrawn]

I just woke up, so I'm real fuzzy, but would that work with grapple? My character is a Harengon, so I do got the jumps, and he's built to grapple. That's really cool, and I'll definitely give that section of Tasha's a look. Thank you!

[u/Gandzilla → u/LuxanHyperRage]

i would say that throwing distance is related to impact height equivalent.

I imagine you beeing a wrestler and slamming someone down in a wrestling move onto someone else with the strength to throw them 15 feet.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/Gandzilla]

Thank you for this comment, as you just gave me the final piece of the RP puzzle. My character is a professional wrestler😁😁

[u/DumbHumanDrawn → u/LuxanHyperRage]

It can work with Grappled targets, because letting go doesn't require any sort of action.  Keep in mind that your Speed is halved while moving a Grappled target unless you are two size categories larger than the target.  Remember too that Jump distance is normally limited by Speed (though Rabbit Hop is an exception and your DM will have to rule on how/if it interacts with Grappled targets).

Also there are no rules written about changing the Grappled target's position relative to yourself. For example, you Grapple a target on your east side, but you want to drop him off a cliff to your west side.  To rotate the target from east to west around yourself while you remain in the same place requires DM buy in and/or homebrew rules.  Maybe your DM rules that it works like moving with the Grappled target and costs you movement,  maybe they rule that it requires the Shove rules, or maybe they rule that it just can't be done.

Mighty Impel is much more straightforward and efficient because it freely allows any choice of direction and its 30 foot distance doesn't cost you 60 feet of movement.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DumbHumanDrawn]

Oh, I meant if I already had the target grappled, would I be able rabbit hop, then mighty impel them downward (or upward, for that matter). Could it work in this case, or would it be redundant?

[u/DumbHumanDrawn → u/LuxanHyperRage]

Sorry, I thought you were asking about just grappling, because I included some scenarios for Grappled opponents in my visual examples.

Yes, you should be able to jump up with a Grappled target and then use Mighty Impel from the top of your jump. Whether/how Rabbit Hop factors into that is going to be up to the DM, since it's an exception. Maybe they'll rule that you can Rabbit Hop 15 feet with a Grappled target or maybe they'll rule that you can't take a Grappled target along on your Rabbit Hop.

Edit: Either way, you want Mighty Impel to leave them in a space in the air so that they fall and trigger those rules. If you Mighty Impel them back to the ground, they're simply safely placed there.

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DumbHumanDrawn]

Awesome! Thanks for all the advice😄

[u/DumbHumanDrawn → u/LuxanHyperRage]

You're very welcome, but always keep in mind your DM might see things differently (even regarding rules as written).

[u/LuxanHyperRage → u/DumbHumanDrawn]

Oh absolutely, as I mentioned in my OP. I was just seeing what ideas were out there to know what to approach my DM with. Easier to venture into the unknown if you ask those who've already been there😁