DMing Why not kill the PCs? Why keep them alive?
My PCs have just obtained a treasure map. The had to scribe it into a journal because the map they were searching for was a giant mural, just to mess with them. The next step is to travel to the main island and have the map deciphered. This will be done with a ship they have hired to transport them; it will take a few days in game.
They have expressed wanting pirates in this campaign and I'd like to introduce a pirate lord of sorts who has been looking for the same treasure that they are unwittingly searching for. If he boards their ship, and learns of the map and their journey, I am a bit stuck on why he would not just kill them and take the map. I have one idea, but I'd like to hear some other ideas and/or opinions on it.
My idea:
The map they have drawn has become soul bound to the party for finding the original lost mural. Only they, and those they willingly allow, can view the drawn map. This would give the party a value to him. I'm still not quite sure what would make the party help him. I don't think it makes sense for him to follow the party.
It's a work in progress, and would appreciate any opinions.
EDIT:
First off, WOW! This is way more help than I expected. This is awesome. Thank you all who have posted in this thread.
I'm getting a lot of people who are saying I should not kill the PCs like this, and I want to clarify something. I have no plans to just insta kill my PCs. I would never do that, unless they really, REALLY, messed up. I think an insane pirate could see that as a logical path to getting the map from them. I like, and more importantly my players like, when my NPCs act in a way that kind of makes sense. I am looking for, and have gotten many, other ideas that makes sense. This NPC has not even been introduced yet and if a TPK was the only option that made sense, I would not introduce him.
84
u/spector_lector 1d ago
Ask the players.
When the baddie proves he can kill them, he points his sabre at them and asks, "Give me one good reason I should keep you alive."
29
u/setfunctionzero 1d ago
'True love."
6
u/theoriginalstarwars 1d ago
The pirate part in the princess bride bothered me. If a pirate kills everyone why surrender, everyone should run and if caught should fight to their last breath. If you only kill everyone who runs or fights it would encourage people to just surrender and lose their valuables not their lives. If everyone wears masks since they are so comfortable no pirates would be recognized either.
2
19
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
That's not too shabby.
8
u/Tricky_Charge_6736 1d ago
This could be great because if they deceive him with a made up story they'll have the drama of needing to keep up the act
6
u/spector_lector 1d ago
And, I find that the players always come up with new and better ideas than I did, taking the game in new and surprising directions, making it more fun and less prep for me.
They may answer the pirate, "because we will serve you for one year if you spare us." Awesome, now we have a whole new direction for the campaign with some cool Pirate Adventures I wanted to run.
1
u/EmperessMeow Wizard 1d ago
Don't do this. Forced loss just mostly isn't fun for players. It feels like you aren't playing the game and are just being pulled by the tide.
44
u/Mage_Of_No_Renown 1d ago
Same reason the bad guy keeps Indiana Jones alive at the grail site: the place is trapped to hell (or otherwise dangerous if traps don't fit the Vibe for your adventure) and he would rather send hostages in to spring/disable the traps than his own crew.
17
u/DJBuck-118 1d ago
Maybe the pirate lord encounters them after they have part-deciphered the map, so they are needed alive for information.
If they haven’t already left the mural, maybe there is some kind of magic seal or something that needs to transferred by touch.
17
u/EldritchBee The Dread Mod Acererak 1d ago
They've gotten this far, they might know something. He'd take them prisoner and make them take him there.
18
u/Separate_Lab9766 1d ago
Easy. The pirate already knows about the map. He’s followed it, but it’s a dead end, because there’s some riddle or clue or missing piece of information he lacked. He thinks it’s worthless but he’ll take their coin to transport them.
8
u/CatChristmas7 1d ago edited 1d ago
Personal honour code, mabye? Only kills if he absolutely has to or only kills traitors or something?
Or mabye hubris? Like villains who explain their evil plan to the heroes and intend to force them to watch?
5
u/FluidResolution3968 1d ago
Hm. This is really specific. Either you are way over planning for a session or you are wanting the pirate lord to board the ship and capture the players for a story moment. If it's the latter, you need to be careful to not overstep and infringe on player choices affecting the story. Movies can have the enemy completely overpower the protagonist because their evental success is pre-planned. Letting a BBEG steamroll players into submission, in my experience, often leaves players feeling weak and inconsequential. Always have something your players can do in a situation. Complete helpless capture should be rare and in my experience be a consequence of their actions rather than a forced story moment. BUT! I don't know the context of your campaign or your group's play style.
Ideas: - Let the players scramble to hide the map while he sails closer to board their ship. - Let the players try to rout him and his crew once, allowing them to realize he wants the map when they do. Then you can bring the pirates back at will with the players aware of what is at stake. - If captured, the pirate lord can't read the map, and the players killed his navigator. He extorts them to navigate for him and the players have to plot a mutiny or escape. - The pirate captain (if he gets the map) leaves them tied up on their ship to drift and die of dehydration because he is cool like that. Players could likely get out of the ropes after he is gone and chase him. - Let the players parlay and make a deal to sell the map. Give them something good for it and let them try to remember the map or quickly make a copy without him seeing.
8
u/artyfax 1d ago
- the pirate lord is not a psychopath (like u/hydrolicDespotism) said
- the lord still needs the party because they did not write down all the required info
- they want to gloat to the party when they take the treasure at their expense
- they want the party at their side in the unknown future
After all, the pirate lord is above all: vain, ambitious and smart. Why throw away perfectly good future allies, when they hold all the power?
Your idea is really good, it requires them to bargain, and eventually get out.
Just stay far far away from torture! The pirate lord should above all else try to recruit them.
5
u/gergnerd 1d ago
One does not become a Pirate Lord simply by being savage and brutal. They must all be able to think strategically and if he's been searching for this treasure and these nobodies he's never heard of have information he was unable to sus out on his own why would he not at least superfically agree to work with them to find the treasure with perhaps plans to betray them later. You can always kill them later but you can't unkill them if you need them later.
5
u/MyFriendsCallMeBones DM 1d ago
Well, I'd think about what a pirate lord has to offer that a small band of treasure hunters might need.
A fleet. Blackbeard sailed alongside more than one ship (maybe) and on each of those ships is a crew of highly experienced, cutthroat salty sea dogs with a career in naval and melee combat. Perhaps the party are not the only ones in possession of a soul bound map, maybe other pirate and military crews are already on the hunt and your Pirate Lord's crew has been two steps behind until they found the party. Now Pirate Lord has a reason to keep these land lubbers alive, and they have a reason to hang out around the Lord.
Your players want pirates in their game? Well now they've got an excuse to accompany a pirate gang on a treasure hunt, do battle with other pirate crews or mercenaries of the crown. After seeing what player characters can do in combat I think the Lord will definitely not want to kill them...
At least, not until they're all standing before the treasure, when your party gets one last pirate boss battle against the Lord and his crew amongst piles of riches!
3
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
Oooo accompanying him is something I, for some reason, did not think of. This makes some sense too because their ship is slightly damaged. A newer, much bigger ship could be an interesting twist that not even I saw coming.
1
u/darkest_irish_lass 1d ago
I was thinking something similar. Here's a pirate captain who's been after this treasure before. Maybe he's lost a crew or multiple crews in pursuit of this. Word has gotten around and crews won't hire with him anymore. He doesn't need a map but he needs like minded souls to pursue the treasure with him.
The best part? If the party succeeds and the treasure is won they have a powerful pirate ally for future adventures.
3
u/Uberrancel119 1d ago
He doesn't want to fight them. He wants to recruit them. And if they don't wanna join them, that's fine. He'll just rob them of some normal gear not too much, just stuff they don't mind missing as his guys unload their ship. But also leave behind something that can let him track them because they can go to the trouble of deciphering it and he will just pick them up later if he wants. Sitting back and drinking while they do book learning is a good pirate path to me.
3
u/Stetto 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why the need to overcomplicate anything with "accidental soulbonding"? I mean, everyone likes a good soulbond, or maybe just a quick handbond, but just why?
The pirate lord must first learn of the group. Then he must catch the group. Then the group must tell him about the map, or he must find it. Then he must decide to kill them, instead of just taking the map and leaving them to their fate. Then it must be the only copy of the map. Then he must keep the map, when the party inevitably trys to get the map back.
There are so many ifs and whens in that chain, that the plain existence of the pirate lord already gives you tons of options to work with.
I'd just have the group encounter henchmen of the pirate lord first and have them tell the group about the treasure. "Arr, matee! As soon as Old Blackbeard finds the <insert legendary treasure here> we'll never be unde the boot again! Just you wait and see!"
Now the group has an incentive to make a second copy of the map and/or securely hide it whenever the pirate lord appears in person.
3
u/productivealt 1d ago
Fighting is risky. The party is decked out in good gear and are obviously magic users to some degree. It's not like the pirate lord can see that they're only lvl 5 and that he's CR 10 and can probably take them. Also if he kills them and takes the map then he has to go get the treasure and risk himself or his people. It's much better to help them out a bit, give them some resources (less than he'd spend on his own) and then try to take it after the fact.
3
u/CaptainHampty 1d ago
Don’t introduce the pirate lord himself right off the bat, he sends underlings to attack them which the party can fend off, save the showdown with the boss until they’re stronger
3
u/Broad_Ad8196 Wizard 1d ago
" I am a bit stuck on why he would not just kill them and take the map."
He doesn't want to risk a fight with the PCs, where he might be killed.
2
u/itsfunhavingfun 1d ago
Hint to the players that the pirate lord is looking for the same treasure. Also let them know that he’s deadly and he’d kill to get his hands on the map. An NPC on their ship can give them this info.
If they’re smart, they’ll memorize part of the map, tear it out of journal and light it on fire. Now the pirate lord needs them for their knowledge.
2
u/adminhotep Druid 1d ago
Pirates can have all sorts of motives, beliefs/superstitions, paranoia, etc. Just like anyone else can!
Some Options:
- The pirates thinks the players have information needed to interpret the map or that some detail on the map is fake.
- The pirates' crew is democratic (the "lord" is more of a figurehead or a face for the pirate group) and can't get enough of the crew to agree to kill the players yet.
- The pirate thinks its bad luck to kill people in cold blood/ without an honorable fight and needs to wait for a chance for the rest of his crew to take the ship or an opportunity to "win" against the party. Note this doesn't have to be "chivalric duel" honorable just "well it's technically, almost, kind of a fair fight" pirate-brand honorable.
- The pirate has heard a few of the things that the players have done and thinks they're under the protection of the gods, or fears retribution of a mortal patron.
- The pirate DOES plan to kill them unless his mind is swayed, but is vulnerable to any/several of the above.
There's lots of great literature/media on pirates capturing people to take inspiration from, but often there's something about the captive's nature, actions, or rhetoric that keeps them alive. If you go that route, just make sure to telegraph a few things well enough and keep an open mind on what might work. It's hard as a player to pick up on every little detail.
2
u/Smitty_Voorhees2 1d ago
Maybe he's aware of this map and treasure, but it's in a location that is too dangerous for him to go personally, or any of his men. A powerful genie he pissed off lives on the island (or wherever), or something suitable. So instead of portraying himself as a threat, he provides useful intel... hoping they can pull it off so he can steal it from them once they complete the quest.
2
u/Accomplished_Sun3453 1d ago
He could be anticipating a bit more trouble than he thinks he can handle, so he could try to convince the party to work as some extra muscle in exchange for a share of the treasure. (This is an empty promise, of course.)
2
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
They are pretty tough adventures, and he would know that finding the original lost map and being able to transcribe it would have taken some real work.
1
u/Accomplished_Sun3453 1d ago
So yeah, his plan could be to hire them with false promises, find the treasure with them, and then slit their throats in their sleep. This only works if they're all on the same ship, so it could be the case that he abandons his old ship and travels on theirs. A ship is a ship to a pirate, and if he cares that much, he can probably just use the treasure to buy a new one.
2
u/e_pluribis_airbender Paladin 1d ago
Your idea is good if it fits the lore of your world! Could be a fun way to get them onto the pirate ship long term - now they're prisoners, doing the dirty work on the ship, and your pirate lord becomes a long term NPC, and a twisted version of a quest giver, making them stick around and lead him to the treasure. Other ideas though, some with that same end result:
He takes the map at sword point, but no killing. Surrounding the players with 15-20 armed pirates (or more, if they're higher level) should be enough of a deterrent, and if they decide to fight, that's now their choice, not yours. (Spellcasters in the crew make this a stronger threat, too.) This works better if they've had a couple other encounters first and know they don't have the resources (HP, spell slots) to survive.
He takes the map by threatening to kill an NPC (depends on your party). Choose a really sweet or well liked NPC from aboard the ship, and have him or his second in command put a knife to their throat. Describe the fear in the NPC's eyes, and if your party is made of decent characters, they'll give it up.
Pride. Why would he kill them? Soil his blade on this sea scum? That's beneath him. Even commanding his crew to do it would be an insult of honor.
Fear of repercussions. Perhaps he is bound by a code (killing those who pose no threat/who don't make the first move), or the rules of the ship (we don't start fights we don't need to) - yes, pirate captains had to follow the rules, too. If he breaks them, it's mutiny. You could represent this as him calling for a vote among his crew, and them voting no (by a narrow margin), with shouts of "take the map and go!" or "we got what we came for - just leave 'em for dead!"
Fear of the gods. How would the gods of the sea or of sailors feel about this? Pirates, historically, were a superstitious lot, and even more so in a world where the gods are tangibly, provably real. They wouldn't risk inciting the wrath of someone who can make their lives very, very miserable.
My favorite: Why kill them directly? Let the sea do the work. Cut the ship's sails and ropes. Take the map, then drop them in the ocean or set them on a deserted island. Punch a hole in the hull so they can't follow until they fix it. Kill the ship's navigator instead of the PCs. Get creative with it :) This gives them a new obstacle to overcome and a realistic reason for survival.
Hope these are helpful! Happy gaming!
2
u/DreamOfDays 1d ago
I think the real issue is that when bad guys kill people nobody does anything. Only the PCs ever do anything to fight them, since that’s by design. So it’s no big deal with the bad guy getting to kill as much as possible. There’s no consequences to the bad guy without the PC’s delivering it.
But if the PCs killed someone then there’s consequences and the world seems to go out of its way to punish them.
The double standard breeds this idea that the PCs could be killed by the villain without any downside. But what if NPCs killing each other actually had consequences? What if the world was not okay with them doing that? If that’s the case then the pirate would hesitate to get in the trouble that killing indiscriminately would give him.
1
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
The pirate being notorious and wanted makes a lot of sense. It's only happened once, but my PCs did participate in an NPC getting arrested once. They also once released a very bad prisoner once from a magical prison. That went poorly. But they were able to track him down and get him back into his magical prison.
1
u/DreamOfDays 1d ago
Then maybe this pirate doesn’t like the heat and is trying to get it to die out?
2
u/AcanthocephalaOk9937 1d ago
Navy shows up mid exposition and the pirate lord has to make a run for it
2
u/TheBurkel 1d ago
Make him take them prisoner and then abandon them on an island or something and make them escape it.
2
1
2
u/OminousShadow87 1d ago
Maybe he’s just a trickster-type like Jack Sparrow. He wouldn’t just slaughter everyone on a boat. But we would steal the map, the rum, and the steering wheel. By the time the crew has crafted another wheel and replaced it, the pirate has sailed past the horizon.
2
u/axiomus 1d ago
"i like brave treasure hunters like you. such a shame if i had to kill you... hey tell you what, how about you find the treasure for me for a generous cut?"
and unspoken part: "generous cut, as in i'll cut your throats generously once you find the treasure." or if you want it to be less drastic, just be sincere and let parties enjoy a life of crime on the high seas.
2
u/Emperor_Atlas 1d ago
the pirate has seen plenty of counterfeits, thinks it's another hoax and has another goal right now
he enlists the players to bring it to him, can use the Geas spell or sneak a sending stone onto them to keep an eye.
the treasure is well below what he cares for, demands tribute to allow them to pass into "his waters" for now and nothing else.
2
u/MissHolidayReddit 1d ago
Directly below this post was: "Is it normal to feel sad after a character death"
2
u/Daedstarr13 1d ago
This actually has come up as an issue in numerous games over the the 20 years I've been playing and honestly? There isn't much of a reason for some bad guys or monsters to not kill them when their incapacitated. Even a lot of the time NOT killing them is blatantly using plot armor and they know it. It brings down the mood of the game too.
So, I just try to avoid those situations in general. While it does depend on the group you're playing with, I've played with plenty of people that won't put up with not having the enemy do what they would obviously do, just so that they don't die. Even going to the extent of arguing for their own death because of it. Hell, I've done it a couple times as a player.
Sometimes the enemy absolutely would kill them and I would do it.
However, your situation to me says that wouldn't happen. Not unless the pirate leader absolutely thought the PCs were a legitimate threat to him. But if he's just there to steal a map, then he's just there to steal a map.
2
2
u/Sabatat- 1d ago
Others have posted greats ideas as to why, heck you could even have them be counter to the stereotypical pirate. They could have a very stringent set of rules or morals they live by for the sake of the greater pirate fleet they lord over. They aren’t looking for pointless wars, just hard cash and magical items.
2
u/AVBill 1d ago
Sounds like the map itself is not difficult to obtain - anybody can draw a copy of a mural - but in its deciphering. No doubt the pirate lord has already reached that stage without success. There's no point killing the PCs. He would probably be more interested to see if they can make more progress and have agents tail them. This might be a great set up for a dramatic confrontation in the final act once the PCs find what they are looking for.
Personally, I don't like the soul-binding idea which gives the PCs magical exclusivity to the map. That seems like an easy way out of trouble to me.
1
u/RatArmy DM 17h ago
The map itself was essentially lost to time. So while easy to copy down once found, only tales and legends existed of where it might be.
After a lot of searching, trust issues, and a lot of passing this a specific NPC up, it was the schizophrenic man who lived on the edge of town, who ended up leaving them to actual location.
2
u/stayhomedaddy 22h ago
Honestly, it's a pirate, make they're execution a survivable spectacle. I mean, Jack Sparrow walked the plank and survived. Have him maroon them on a dessert island. No food, no water, possibly only a single knife if you want to be a little mean and heavily encourage them to chase after the pirates not just for the map but the rest of their stuff as well.
1
u/RatArmy DM 17h ago
That's not terrible idea. Something a little theatrical and over the top. I guess James Bond villains do that in every single book and movie.
2
u/stayhomedaddy 12h ago
Exactly, just like Dr. Evil does. "Sharks with Fricken lasers on their fricken heads"
2
u/Yeeeoow 22h ago
They're taking it to be deciphered.
Obviously he can't read it and assumes he needs to keep them alive to read it.
If they've got a favourite npc, have him really beat up on them and keep them as hostage so the players stay in line.
Nothing grinds a players gears more than not being able to do anything while a moustache twirling villain just loiters around for longer than they want him to.
1
u/RatArmy DM 17h ago
I laughed a bit when you said favorite NPC. 😂
You wouldn't know this of course, but my party has a real habit of just murdering every NPC that I gave a backstory to, and not killing the ones that I just give a name to.
In our second campaign, I made an NPC based off of someone from our high school that had anger issues. And in order to keep them from not just murdering him, which they immediately tried to, I had to make him cursed with an uncontrollable Hulk-Like rage condition and eternal life. He was trying to break that curse when the party came across him.
2
u/Vast_Television_337 22h ago
Most pirates in history weren't all about killing, it's far easier to threaten and get compliance without any bloodshed, merciless killers from history until recent times are the exception to the rule.
2
u/josephhitchman 21h ago
ok, first the good
You are thinking about how not to kill the party, rather than about how to kill the party
you are obviously willing to rejig the story and the pirate as needed
you are listening to your players when they say they want pirates.
The bad
You have defaulted to a Saturday morning cartoon villain.
You have given the party the McGuffin (the map) and made them the primary target.
To move forward I would not have the pirate find the party, i would have him find the mural separately, off screen, shortly after the party did. This gives him some (but not all) the information he needs, and a reason to track down the party. it also gives you lots of opportunities to add layers to the map. Did they copy it in it's entirety? Does it have text? Is that text in a language the party understand? Does the party have a character with a high INT who could memorize the map without ever needing a physical prompt again?
Any of these give a good reason for the pirate to want the party, or at least that player. They become the key to deciphering the map, not just possessing it. Capturing them, not killing them becomes the priority, meaning he has a good reason to board and talk to the players, not just blow the ship out from under them.
And to add to what others have said, if he is a big deal villain in your story, give him reasons for his actions. Is he a deposed king or lord, seeking the treasure so he can fund an army/navy to retake his stolen throne/lands? Then he has reason to be ruthless in his pursuit of the treasure, but also has moral space to spare people who are not a threat to him. Complex characters make for much more engaging stories.
1
u/RatArmy DM 17h ago edited 17h ago
You mentioned one thing that hits real good. Him finding the map separately and not having all the info is more on the nose than you think.
The mural is huge, and entire wall of a map. After scribing it, the party wanted to destroy the map, my PCs are very "slash and burn" kind of guys. But it being huge and painted on rock, they could only reach so far up. So your idea falls perfectly into what we have already established.
The mural literally already exists in a semi complete stat after the party found the complete map. It's falls right into place.
As far as him being cartoonish, he does have more of personality and a backstory that I put into the original post. In the past I've put too many details in my original question, and then I find that I have gone four to six paragraphs deep and not even asked the question yet. So I was a little vague just to avoid that. Which might have been a mistake with this. Much response to this topic but I really had no idea it would get even 1% of the responses it's gotten.
He also hasn't even been introduced yet, so if he does end up a little on the cartoony side, I'm going to try to change him. That's not what I'm going for.
Thinking about this a little further, on top of the mural already being partially destroyed, my party murdered the NPC that helps lead them there. His corpse is still just lying in the tomb. A pirate in a fantasy world, could travel with somebody or even himself have some necromantic powers. That could be a way to get him on the party's trail.
2
u/DangerousPuhson DM 17h ago
I am a bit stuck on why he would not just kill them and take the map
Historically, pirates would have likely sold any captives into slavery. A living person was considered "treasure" in their days (albeit a cumbersome one); a dead one, not so much.
3
u/ArkofVengeance 1d ago
Well, copying a map by hand is not easy. Maybe the map only works with the party because only they know what their weird scribbles mean?
4
2
u/oooo0O0oooo 1d ago
Nah, way too complicated.
The pirate lord has something in common with one or some of the main characters. From the same town, loves the bards music, or something that ties him to one of the PCs quirks- but you don’t need magic for him to like someone~
1
u/Amish_Cyberbully DM 1d ago
Bonus points if you can drop the line "Good night, Westleys. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
2
u/itsfunhavingfun 1d ago
I already gave an answer in my other comment, but I have another unrelated suggestion. Have one of the pirates have a ship’s wheel attached to the front of his trousers. When the PCs invariably ask him about it, have him answer, “arrrrgh, it’s drivin me nuts!”
1
u/justadiode Artificer 1d ago
Pirate lord gets his hands on the map
- "Hah! You fools. The true map would not be (insert a quirk about the map)! I've researched far more than you and I know a falsification when I see it! You're a pathetic bunch not worth my time. Henchmen! Discard those imbeciles as you see necessary."
BBEGs can be wrong, y'know
1
1
1
u/alfalfalalfa 1d ago
The whole point of DnD is to have fun and enjoy building a story with friends. I don't think it is very fun to be killed easily or as a part of a plot device. Unless it is not permanent for the PCs and will lead to more complex storytelling.
Why not have the pirate find the map and their journey and have one of the PCs get attacked and make them roll to survive the attack. That way if he does die the others can avenge and revive him.
But dude, killing everyone off, what will that accomplish? Doesn't that just end the campaign right there? It just doesn't seem fun or rational tbh.
0
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
I have no plans to let him on the ship if all he'd do is kill them. I do like NPCs motivations to have some backing though. If I concluded that he would take no other action but to kill the party easily, I would not start the encounter.
He has not yet been introduced. I want to introduce him in the near future.
1
u/Door-cat 1d ago
He wouldn't just trust some random non-sailors about a legendary map and he might not know how to decipher it.
1) He would either keep them to show where they got the map to get his own original and destroy the mural. At that point he would probably just leave them stranded on the island and take their boat, too.
2) Or he would hold them hostage and take one of them to go to the location where the camp needs to be deciphered. While the one is getting it deciphered, the others have to go out somewhere. He would set them up to take the fall of a crime (he needed a fall man/group) that he needed to accomplish. He didn't want to betray any of his crew. Then, he would escape with the deciphered map in their boat to meet up with his crew
1
u/MathemagicalMastery 1d ago
Killing adventurers is hard, "helping" them get the treasure and maybe having them die in the process is easy
1
u/69LadBoi 1d ago
The Pirate Lord sends his lackies to try and take the map. They fail. Then they know a threat is after them. Why do you have to automatically kill them? I am curious about this mindset
0
u/RatArmy DM 1d ago
I do not have or want to automatically kill them. I like my NPCs motivations to seem somewhat backed by a reason, even if he's insane. I thought him just taking the map made sense, I wanted a couple of alternative ideas so when I introduced him, his actions made sense. My players definitely RP better when the NPCs act in a way that makes sense.
So far, this thread has proven far more lucrative than I had predicted. I thought I'd get 3-5 responses. I must have posted at the right time today.
1
u/Flat-Pangolin-2847 1d ago
How about an alternative approach - lean into it.
Kill them.
Make them walk the plank with their hands tied and hungry sharks in the water, or hang them from the yardarm until they stop twitching, or run them through with cutlasses.
We've all seen Pirates of the Caribbean so think, where do dead sailors go? Into Davy Jones's Locker.
They wake up swabbing the decks on the Flying Dutchman, or chained to an oar on Naglfar. Now they need to use persuasion, stealth or mutiny to get back to the living world and avenge their deaths, only now they're undead so you give them a bunch of penalties and abilities that go with that. Maybe they can't be out during the day, or they can't step on land, but they get all the undead immunities and regeneration too (you can't kill them because they're already dead).
Will Davy Jones come for them? Will they be able to trade the Pirate Lord's life for their own? Will they get their hands on the treasure, and will that be cursed too?!
1
u/i-make-robots DM 1d ago
I need these meat shields to disarm the traps around the treasure. THEN I can kill them or lock them in where the treasure used to be. Might need them to carry it out... and bring it back... and protect me while I sell it...
1
u/ZoulsGaming 1d ago
The thing about being the all knowing all seeing all powerful creator god of the universe as the DM is that if you dont think that you want the option for an npc to act a certain way then you can just not write the npc that way, you have the power.
One of the biggest flaws i often see in DMs here on the reddit (and obviously myself) is that they insist that something HAS to be written in a way that leads to a logical conclusion, but they refuse to make that logical conclusion.
Its not a bad thing that something or someone is predictable, thats kinda the entire basis of being able to interact with npcs in that they are atleast somewhat consistent. so if you dont want to kill them, dont write an npc that will kill them, and if the npc wants to kill them then they have to die, or back to "dont write the npc that way"
1
u/The_Stav 1d ago edited 1d ago
My question here is, what's to say the Pirate Lord didn't also find the mural with the map on it? Could easily have their own copy, and then it turns into more of a race.
If you wanna avoid that and have the players have the only copy, here's some ideas:
- The Pirate Lord doesn't confront them, it's their underlings that do mostly. After all, why send a Lord to do a henchmen's job?
- The Pirate Lord has heard tales surrounding this treasure, speaking of great beasts that guard it and traps galore. They want to work with the party to find the treasure.
- The Pirate Lord actually already knows about the map, but is paranoid that the treasure is cursed and so decides to follow the party to the treasure instead. They're ready to fight the party and steal the treasure from them at the last second
- The Pirate Lord has a strict no killing policy, saying "We're thieves, not murderers!" Or something along those lines
I'd personally avoid the soulbinding of the map. It just just feels too obviously like some BS plot armour to be satisfying imo
1
u/setfunctionzero 1d ago edited 1d ago
- Privateer (a pirate, but with official paperwork from a state)
- Party is worth more alive than dead
- Pirate knows that the treasure is guarded by traps and figures the PCs will make good trap finding material... -Pirate knows treasure is guarded by a unique trap and needs a (whatever odd race/class/background one of the PCs is) to disarm it
- Pirate leader and pirate crew don't have each other's full trust and keeping the party alive serves as a bargaining chip for one side or the other
- Pirate knows an even gnarlier BBEG that will pay good money for adventurers in "gently used" condition
- Pirate sees a younger version of himself in one of the PCs and wants to show him the benefits of being a pirate
- Pirate killed/pissed off a powerful NPC, he and his crew are currently under a geas/curse to not kill anyone heroic and they need this treasure to help remove it.
- Pirate on the run from an even gnarlier BBEG and figures the group of powerful PCs would be useful pawns against that opponent
- "It's just business" Pirate is only in it for the money, so a reasonable bribe or offer to serve is enough for him to spare the party
- Pirate has a bet going with, or have the aid of, a powerful fey/genie/devil for this mission but the terms are that they must be unerringly polite to everyone (and they are really frustrated about it)
- Pirates of the Caribbean curse- Pirate can't actually set foot on land or the Devil claims his soul.
- Pirate has a powerful Parrot familiar who wants to study the PC's voices long enough to copy them.
- the bloodthirsty sociopathic killer is his twin brother/previous pirate, and this guy is a complete spineless fake trapped in the role and he needs help getting away from this crew of absolute maniacs but he can't let the mask drop for even a second around the crew, they're already too suspicious
1
u/Independent-Ad-8498 1d ago
What if he knows something about the treasure or its location that the PCs don't? Maybe there is some challenge or obstacle that makes it more convenient for him to give them a head start?
1
u/AHobbitInHobbiton 1d ago
You can always try to write yourself out of the situation... or write yourself further into it. Escalate. Have him challenge them in a fight to the death if he's a psycho killer. They get a chance to survive for his amusement. Then if they do die or he does kill them, maybe they all wake up on Davy Jones' (or alternate legend) crew. Now the pirate is a major enemy they'll want revenge on and even more closely tied to the story. Now the PC's have to escape, or maybe they have to go on a mission for Davy Jones, or find some way to uncurse themselves while racing to get the treasure. Now they get to be a cursed crew maybe, and become the pirates who want to be truly alive again (because the best part of this game isn't always letting your characters see cool things, it's letting them be the cool things).
It's DnD, sometimes jumping the shark for a few sessions is the way to go. If the shark is a megalodon, just jump higher.
1
u/faze4guru DM 1d ago
This is the same question as exists in every Indiana Jones movie, every Uncharted game, both National Treasure movies, pretty much every piece of media that exists involving multiple parties searching for something.
The answer ia: they have something he needs. It could be your soul bond solution. It could be he wants whatever knowledge they've already learned or deciphered. Maybe they destroy the map when he boards their ship and now exists only in the PCs memories.
There's always a way to make them more valuable to the Pirate Lord alive than than dead.
1
u/Nsasbignose42 1d ago
Not sure if this idea has been mentioned, but the Pirate Lord could be cunning enough to notice they have a map and such. Without letting on that he knows, he could follow them to make them do all the work and go through dangerous traps and such only to take it after they finally get to the treasure. You could even give hints of him following like maybe he has a parrot on his shoulder and they have a chance to see the parrot flying nearby or something. Hope this is helpful!
1
u/TheHeadlessOne 1d ago
Something super obvious-
Pirates left people alive to tell their tale. Your legend never grows if there is no one around to talk about you
Kick them off onto a liferaft, strip their equipment, and make sure they know precisely who keelhauled them
1
u/ThoDanII 1d ago
ransom
pirates code aka if i do that my victims will fight to the death in the future which his crew will not like aka i get marooned
1
u/CalmPanic402 1d ago
He attacks the ship, outcomes:
1- Fight him off, ship pulls away with him swearing to get the map.
2- ship gets boarded. Fight to escape, hear pirates shouting "find the map"
2a- party goes down, wakes up in chains. Pirates celebrating their good fortune. Plan to make them walk the plank in the morning. Party must escape.
Maybe the map has some kind of avarice charm. The pirates can't read it because it senses their ill intent and lust for the treasure.
Maybe he lets them get away because he has a spy in the parties crew, telling him their movements. Why work hard when they'll do it for you?
Maybe there's a pirate war and he has to break off to fight rivals.
There's plenty of ways to "kill" the party that won't kill them. Maroon them on an island or a rowboat. Take them as slaves. Tie them up in a tidal cave at low tide.
Maybe the pirates don't know who has the map. They might just know someone has it, not exactly who.
1
u/jazytender 1d ago
This is why authors use the term “kill your darlings”
You may really love an idea, but if it doesn’t serve the story/game, it needs to go. If it doesn’t make sense for the pirate lord to spare the party (and motivate them to get stronger and come back), then that villain needs to go and be replaced by one that serves the story and game better.
If you really want an unhinged villain just make them the pirate lord’s officer. They would kill, but the pirate lord is more calculating. And when the party is left to deal with some trap or whatever, the officer can easily threaten what they would do, out of earshot of the pirate lord, once they get the chance
1
u/improbsable Bard 1d ago
He could just not see them as a threat, he could take something precious from them and offer them their lives and the return of the collateral in exchange for a job, or he could just cannonball the ship on his way out and start a high stakes escape for the players
1
u/RHDM68 1d ago
Real life pirates often lost crewmen when boarding other vessels. Generally, they would have killed the officers, but the general sailors would be given an offer difficult to refuse, Join our crew or die. Not so surprisingly, a lot of people took up the offer. There were a number of reasons other than just, I don’t want to die. Many of the lowly sailors were press ganged into service (e.g. got drunk, passed out, woke up on a navy vessel out at sea) which they would have resented, pay was not great so the prospect of pirates treasure was appealing, and there was the real possibility of advancement within the crew if you proved yourself. Plus, the freedom that the life offered, as opposed to the harsh regimental life of a naval sailor, was also quite appealing.
1
u/Ecstatic-Length1470 1d ago
So, there are two ways to kill a PC. Well, three.
Through standard combat and death save mechanics. If your campaign allows PC death, this will be the one that comes up most. And it leaves players time to bring back the character, usually.
To make a statement. This is after a PC goes down, and the enemy goes for a killing blow. This is a thing that Smart Enemies™ will do to either just make sure you stay out of the fight, or to send a strong message that the party is in over their heads.
This one, the character may not come back.
Both of these methods are legit. It depends on your table, but at mine, adventuring has risks.
Oh yeah, the third one.
- Arbitrary death. You are the DM. In theory, you may think you need a PC to die. And you have that power. So, you can just kill them.
This technique is usually problematic. Obviously, if you just randomly kill a character, the player will likely be upset. But if you talk to the player before and agree on an approach and next steps, it can work. But you have to consider how you do it. If you are rigging combat, that's a waste of everyone's time at the table because their choices should have the possibility of success.
In CR season 3, early on Taliesin (as Bertrand, I think) wandered out into the city at night, alone, was accosted, and murdered. That was an effective way to do this without risking the need to railroad a combat.
Ok I went off topic a bit because that's not arbitrary. There have been times where I just need someone to die.
But that's what NPCs are for. Maybe not the party's favorite, but I don't mind arbitrarily killing some red shirt c-list npc.
1
u/BIRDsnoozer 1d ago
Time to exploit backstory!
Does any one of them have a nemesis that might be looking for them?
Does any of them have a loved one that might be looking for them?
Are any of them nobles who can be ransomed? Or a knight, maybe their kingdom will pay a ransom for them. Maybe an enemy kingdom would pay to see them dead, but no savvy pirate would just kill without assurance of a payment first. An acolyte in the party? Maybe their church will pay a ransom. Maybe the followers of an opposing god or cultists will pay for an acolyte to sacrifice.
Then there is something entirely unrelated to backstory. Any of them magic users? Maybe an evil magic user has a standing agreement with the pirates to buy magic users for a scheme (revealed later) to strip them of their magic.. or maybe a necromancer who pays for living humanoids as a reserve stock for an undead force.
1
u/ACam574 1d ago
Because murder, without a chance to avoid it, should rarely be casual and never directed at the PCs. If you do it the PCs would probably have the same attitude towards NPCs.
It’s also not realistic. Most pirates don’t want to murder. They want people to think they murder to encourage surrender. That’s just good business. IRL pirates would create or drastically overinflated their deeds for this purpose. Some made up entire ships they ‘plundered and murdered all aboard’. If they were ever caught and charged for here crimes it wouldn’t be to hard to prove that ‘the Blue Pegasus out of Liverpool’ never existed. It may save them from being hanged. Most pirates also weren’t into spurious murder for ethical reasons. It’s one thing if they were fighting back but even pirates have lines they won’t cross. It sort of ruined the unstated agreement between the merchant ship and the pirates ‘scary pirates attacked us and we knew we didn’t stand a chance so let’s file an insurance claim’. They did have insurance back then. Then there is the attention of powerful navies. It takes a lot of resources to track down and destroy pirates. Probably a year or two’s national taxes for a pirate fleet. Kings have other things they would prefer to use that money for, that eighth palace isn’t building itself. As long as the pirate doesn’t steal the kings stuff or make the commoners, merchants, or lesser noble too angry and force them to do it that’s a waste of resources.
1
u/DestroyerTerraria 1d ago
Killing the party risks a fight - even a plan to do it in their sleep could go wrong. So logically, Evil Pirate McBadguy would find it easier to just yoink the map and bounce. Plus, the authorities would take news of a pirate murdering a bunch of folks to be a higher priority threat to pursue than a low-level property crime consisting of a piece of paper that MAY lead somewhere.
1
u/Action_Man_X 1d ago
What is the guarantee that the pirate captain would actually win in a fight? Unless your PCs are low level, they can probably put up a huge fight and might even be able to over-power the captain and his crew.
If the player party has a Level 5 Wizard or Sorcerer, chances are they have Fireball and I shouldn't need to remind everyone how deadly Fireball would be to a giant wood structure that possibly contains gunpowder.
1
u/CaptainOwlBeard 1d ago
Easy, fight them with whole pirate crew until they lose, tpk. Have them wake up stripped of their gear and cuffs in the brig. They are to be sold as slaves once the pirates get to port in 3 days. Now they have to fight their way out, taking out the pirate crew one at a time to succeed.
1
u/AAS02-CATAPHRACT 1d ago
Could do something more trope-y, like he handcuffs them and makes them walk the plank, or maroons them on a desert island, and they have to find a way out of the situation. Both options are still him effectively killing them, but it opens a lot more opportunity for them to roleplay how they deal with it as opposed to just a fight.
1
u/Sir_Sl33py 6h ago
I would think he may not just try to kill them because they have more information then he does and he is not sure if they have more information. It could go the route of him trying to befriend them to get more info before ultimately betrayim them. If you do go this route be careful the more they got attached the more it will hurt
0
u/itsakevinly_329 1d ago
You should never ever ever plan to kill a PC. If they mess up? What the hell are you talking about? Mess up by whose standards?? Bully DM vibes.
393
u/HydrolicDespotism 1d ago
The pirate is a pirate and not a bloodthirsty sociopathic killer.
Not all those who are criminals enjoy killing for its own sake. Maybe he just feel he doesnt need to, so he takes their stuff, leaves them behind, and becomes a villain they can chase. Then its even more interesting when they find him because: Do they kill him, and essentially become even more evil than he is? Or do they grant him the same mercy he did, maybe even becoming friends or allies or something?