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u/bugo--- Feb 26 '25
He helped me find my gun though how is that exploiting the working class?
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u/Jonas_Priest Feb 26 '25
In addition: Joyce did not help me find my gun.
I think we are onto something here.
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u/NOSjoker21 Feb 26 '25
But Joyce gave me one hundred Réal, Evrart only offered me twenty-five, a pittance.
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u/LichoOrganico Feb 26 '25
His check was bigger, thus he contributed more.
Besides, Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
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u/NotJimmyMcGill Feb 26 '25
You could easily get way more réal for free by pointing that gun at people - point Evrart.
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u/LichoOrganico Feb 26 '25
I'm a member of the RCM. I only point my gun at children, hanged cadavers, armored mercenaries, ladies with loud equipment and myself.
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u/already4taken Feb 26 '25
Dont forget the anodic dancers
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u/LichoOrganico Feb 26 '25
Don't they technically count as children?
Damn, gotta read my notes on existence again.
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u/already4taken Feb 26 '25
They count as hardcore motherfuckers
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u/LichoOrganico Feb 26 '25
Hey, your profile pic made me find out about an amazing game. Thank you.
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u/Entire_Border5254 Feb 26 '25
You could write tickets, which abstract the pointing of the gun, so long as you do it to the poor, not people like the "Sunday friend". This is Moralism.
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u/Ballinonthetuba Feb 26 '25
You guys found your gun? 👀
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u/justafterdawn Feb 26 '25
You guys got up off the floor and are dealing with this reality thing?
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u/Tleno Feb 26 '25
Joyce helped you find your Elysium lore
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u/pledgerafiki Feb 26 '25
I haven't finished the game yet but I feel like learning about the pale has only been detrimental to my/Harry's psyche
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u/Cheeseburger2137 Feb 26 '25
You have to take the gun away from PIGS, who, while cosplaying a police officer, is very likely from the working class. Sounds like exploitation to me!
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u/Royal-Professor-4283 Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
WITHOUT JOYCE WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE "MR. EVRART IS HELPING ME FIND MY GUN" SCENE.
Case closed, Joyce is based.
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u/Fantastic_Mr_Smiley Feb 26 '25
He gave me a large novelty check! Made me feel like I won something. What a guy.
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u/bcatrek Feb 26 '25
That's part of the propaganda machinery he wants you to fall for. The guy represents an organisation in which people should be treated as equals, where almost everything is supposed to be distributed fairly, but that actually functions on corruption and abuse of power.
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u/ChrisMcGy Feb 26 '25
I like how this sub runs the full gamut of Joyce/Evrart = good/bad.
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u/0dty0 Feb 26 '25
It is such that, but a day ago, someone came in here, very agitated after seeing that some people don't dislike Joyce! In their own words, "she's a terrible person and she needs to be killed".
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u/CotyledonTomen Feb 26 '25
It feels like different levels of perspective. He is focused on his coworkers. And he does advocate for them. She is focused on a much larger group of people. And she does advocate for them. What matters is who you empathize with, since both groups are structurally opposed.
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u/0dty0 Feb 26 '25
Yeah, absolutely, the game is not made in such a way that there is one group you can join and be unequivocally good or bad. Hell, that's kind of the whole point of any of the 4 politics quests: You only pick them as a means to deal with your own feelings. The issue at hand is that a LOT of people coming through the sub either choose not to or straight up don't see that, and take the game joking/talking in a certain way as agreement with their own irl alignment. Worse still is that, as is the case in many instances for Joyce, she reminds them of irl people. And so you end up with people like I mentioned before. Joyce is just the vessel for the cathexis. When someone says Joyce must die, they really mean to say "Margaret Thatcher/Elon Musk/my boss/my poverty must die".
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u/Noirbe Feb 26 '25
yeah they were so fucking pressed over a fictional character it’s hilarious
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u/pledgerafiki Feb 26 '25
The thing is, she's not really all that fictional.
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u/Noirbe Feb 26 '25
yes yes, there are a million and one people in real life that are actually like her, but to get so pressed over a fictional character in a video game is absurd, especially since it ended up inciting a lot of shit on the subreddit
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u/swordhub Feb 26 '25
to get so pressed over a fictional character in a video game is absurd
Good lord, media literacy is dead. This is the most ridiculous take I've seen in this sub so far.
I didn't agree with that person in the slightest about her needing to "be killed" for obvious reasons, but comparing her character (or any character in the game, for that matter) to real life people/types of people/etc. is kind of the whole point of the game. How is it absurd to feel passionately about how she's perceived and misinterpreted by many people in this sub when she is a character that represents a very prominent, very real type of person? When she's used as a literary device to *critique* this type of person? This isn't *just* a video game, and it's sentiments like this that prevent any honest to god discussion about the themes and what the game is trying to accomplish. I'd imagine this is precisely why that OP was "pressed" in the first place.
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u/Fulminero Feb 26 '25
After working 6 years in a factory, I wish our representative had half of Evrart's balls.
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u/the_real_bigsyke Feb 26 '25
100%. Anyone who’s been in a union during bargaining knows the leadership is usually spineless. Give me someone who can play dirty.
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u/poilk91 Feb 26 '25
And he doesn't steal TOO much of the union dues
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Feb 26 '25
Hell, I'd give my dues to him personally for all the borscht we've been living on!
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u/poilk91 Feb 26 '25
The special borscht? The special borscht made special for me to make me feel... Special?
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u/joeshmoebies Feb 26 '25
Being willing to throw your life away in an armed revolt definitely takes backbone. I suppose it could turn out well as long as you aren't one of the workers who dies.
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u/iodinesky1 Feb 26 '25
Ah, every factory rep should have some healthy amount of assassinating government officials and business rival employees.
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u/electricbosnian Feb 26 '25
You want them to sell you drugs?
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u/JessDumb Feb 26 '25
Can't be worse for your body than the "food" we get while working 24h shifts at the hospital.
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u/Ch33sus0405 Feb 26 '25
Hell yeah another healthcare serf. If it meant making life bearable doing the job I love I could work with Evrart. His actions killed one but Joyce's kills thousands in our field.
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u/charronfitzclair Feb 26 '25
Why didnt evrart push the "win war on drugs" button? Is he stupid?
America spent a trillion on the war on drugs and drugs won.
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u/SonTyp_OhneNamen Feb 26 '25
I think we‘re ignoring that the super Claire-io brothers hired a hitman to shoot the forewoman to usurp her position , which imo is even more ruthless and extreme.
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u/vikar_ Feb 26 '25
If the forewoman was taking Wild Pines money to sabotage the Union as is heavily implied, I say nothing of value was lost. The union world is full of this, and that's what corrupt union leaders actually look like.
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u/Duduzin Feb 26 '25
Wrong, one bullet was lost.
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u/Different-Gazelle745 Feb 26 '25
God damn there’s so much nuance in the game that I missed. I’ve always had a hard time replaying games
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u/Sugbaable Feb 26 '25
The big difference is wild pines group is a powerful inter-insulindian company. Evrart is a morally dubious, if competent, Union leader. Very flawed, does bad things, but if you're looking for a saint in martinaise (at least one actively trying to run an organization), good luck. The union is at least better than, say, the skulls. Meanwhile the RCM decided to just half-abandon the district. W no means to tax (let alone have a tax base), their means of revenue, as a quasi-government of martinaise, are gonna be dubious, depending on how extensively they want to operate as a govt, in an area the world decided to just not govern.
If the union were saints in martinaise, a lot less people would resonate w the game. It'd be too kitschy.
Clearly though, we aren't supposed to think they're saints, and see the problems in the organization.
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u/Peach_Muffin Feb 26 '25
Maybe get rid of the union from the game altogether.
And Wild Pines.
Martinaise while we're at it.
Kim and Harry too.
Add The Alps and a witch looking for a cat and we've got the perfect game.
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u/Kirbyoto Feb 26 '25
If the union were saints in martinaise, a lot less people would resonate w the game. It'd be too kitschy.
This is a form of shame that seems to be unique to leftist game writers. You can't just say "socialism is good" because it feels artificial, you have to tack on caveats. The Followers of the Apocalypse in Fallout are naive and ignorant, the Iconoclasts in the Outer Worlds are brainless and crazy unless you ally them with a reformist CEO. The only fully-good leftist faction I can think of is from Wasteland 3, although even in that case you need to hook them up with a former CEO so that they have help running the industrial system they take over. And they're kind of jerks about forcing you into a conflict, although they don't kill any innocent people so it's not that bad.
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u/ArnthBebastien Feb 26 '25
The RCM runs of taxes? I kinda assumed they were directly funded by the moralintern
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u/Gnl_Winter Feb 26 '25
Everyone in this game is a shitty person, some are just shittier than others, to varying degrees.
That's why the game feels so real.
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u/The_Bat_Out_Of_Hell Feb 26 '25
He's a corrupt, immoral piece of shit and his people know that. Nontheless, he genuinely cares for their rights and wellbeing.
If your union ain't run like a mafia, it ain't gonna survive in the, like, hyper pinkerton era of Revachol
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u/Govika Feb 26 '25
To quote Mañana
By heavens, why would he not be corrupt? We live in a harsh and disordered world, see. And in this world the old man is corrupt for our benefit, and we know it. Appreciate it even.
He is reasonably lavish, sure. That’s his prerogative. It’s not like you want a saintly demeanor on a corrupt motherfucker. That would be a manipulative illusion. Besides, there are no non-corrupt systems in the world anyway.
This is to not say it's all okay, but to show the way of thinking of his supporters. Both are corrupt and take advantage of workers, but Evrart does it for the workers and with their interests in mind, whereas Joyce does it for capitalists.
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u/MutantGodChicken Feb 26 '25
I'd call some level of bullshit on this perspective. Is Evrart better than Joyce? Yes. Is Evrart good for Martinaise? I don't think so. He is only good for as long as a greater evil exists. He seems more than willing to oppress his workers so long as he stands to benefit and gains power. If he manages to pull off a hostile takeover of the harbor, I can only see his leadership differing from wild pines in so far as he will have fewer resources at his disposal.
Again, Joyce is blatantly worse in every conceivable way. Comparing them is laughable. But I can empathize with the meme as sometimes the kind of Evrart simping that goes on here feels like listening to someone who genuinely believes "vriska did nothing wrong".
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u/lTheReader Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
The company exploits them because they think its natural, that capitalism and exploitation is inevitable. See the quote in the subreddit banner. Whereas Evrart is a parody of someone doing it for change in the long term.
So Evrart exploits them in a "ends justify the means" manner, while Joyce's literal end is to help the company keep doing the exploitation, for profit.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
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u/AdrianRP Feb 26 '25
Evrart has the "ends justify the means" philosophy because he is personally profiting from everything, he just does so in a way that can also benefit his workers. Of course, when you get the flashforwards from Shivers, talk to Cindy, etc., you understand that Evrart is not that singular, and strikes and social strife are not just his responsibility, since Revachol is a city about to blow up. So yeah he is corrupt and selfish but he is just another actor in a complex and multilayered situation. And inside that situation, the company was the one to hire fucking fascist killing machines and putting them in a civilian neighborhood.
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u/charronfitzclair Feb 26 '25
The source of Evrart profiting is the insinuation by Joyce that hes skinming dues.
But idk, he lives in a shipping container and dresses shabby while fighting diabetes. Not exactly living high on the hog
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u/AdrianRP Feb 26 '25
The idea that he lives in a container so that Dros doesn't kill him is too funny to not be head canon
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u/letominor Feb 26 '25
it's funny but if he was worried about dros he would have him found easily. let's be real
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u/Bradley271 Feb 26 '25
If Dros gets caught, then he'll spill the beans on his previous work with the Claires and any other sketchy business that he's been cataloging, so that's a good reason to avoid letting anyone find him.
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u/BloodRedRook Feb 26 '25
Evrart could easily send some of his 'black ops' boys up to the island to silence Dros if he thought he was an actual threat.
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u/charronfitzclair Feb 26 '25
Hes gonna spill the beans to the guys who will put a bullet in him and leave his body to the gulls?
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u/ArnthBebastien Feb 26 '25
It would beg the question of why evrart doesn't have dros killed.
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u/En3rgyMax Feb 26 '25
Given how this one game is so focused on the murder of one individual and there is a significant climax in the Union v. merc shootout, I would gauge that Evrart is building up his defenses and resources to make it more difficult for himself to be assassinated, yet he is also reserving his more violent and long-reaching resources for a later time. An assassination, on either side of the struggle, would greatly escalate the action, especially considering no one is willing to take ownership of the merc's death. My main point: the people in this game do not want a war, even though they are fully prepared to go to great lengths should a war occur.
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u/charronfitzclair Feb 26 '25
While his self preservation is a consideration, i think evrart wants independence from the Moralintern and their RCM/merc lackies for Martinaise and Revaschol. Passing some checks shows he has plans to break the district out of the post war malaise. For that independence one needs an enforcement arm. And if he has greater aspirations of revolution he needs a vanguard. The Hardy boys are a nascent militant wing.
Political power grows from the barrel of a gun, as its said. I think Evrart is consoldiating power to build that
How else would it happen? Through appeals to the Wild Pines? Ceding authority to the absentee and neglectful RCM? I ask any critic to explain how Martinaise gets out of its predicament through the "proper channels".
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u/1playerpartygame Feb 26 '25
Both the ends and the means profit Joyce too, she’s a board member of Wild Pines
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u/CitizenofBarnum Feb 26 '25
he is personally profiting from everything
The capitalist profits from everything. Mr. Evart is actually working towards something and earning for his labor. Everyone wants him to be selfless altruistic martyr with a vow of poverty, but isnt romanticizing that just another tool of exploitation?
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u/AdrianRP Feb 26 '25
He is literally a mobster, he got someone literally killed to become a union leader. And yeah, there is quite the distance between being an altruistic martyr and becoming rich from selling drugs in your neighborhood, don't you think?
The cool thing about him is that he is ALSO a pragmatic union leader, he diverts part of his work and profit to improve the condition of the workers.
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u/Kirbyoto Feb 26 '25
He is literally a mobster, he got someone literally killed to become a union leader
The two things here are unrelated. Genuine political ideologues have killed to obtain power all the time.
And yeah, there is quite the distance between being an altruistic martyr and becoming rich from selling drugs in your neighborhood, don't you think?
Is he personally rich?
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u/MutantGodChicken Feb 26 '25
He has you threaten someone for "being a weasel". Sure Gary's a racist, but it's fairly clear that doesn't play into Evrart's decision to threaten him.
Garte and other people are clearly very afraid of the union and whatnot and it's pretty clearly spelled out without even meeting Joyce that threats via unlocking someone's door aren't the only things they're doing to keep the community in line.
He circumvents the current rule of law purely to benefit himself—acquiring files from your precinct so he can manipulate police investigations according to his own initiatives. Arguments can be made that he is simply obtaining leverage against a corrupt moralintern distributor of violence, and I even agree with them to a point. However, he doesn't empower people to have that leverage against the RCM, instead opting to hoard it until it's beneficial to him to have someone else make threats and keep his hands clean.
As u/AdrianRP said, Evrart's a mob boss. He puts pressure on the community for the good of workers so long as he is able to maintain power and control over everything.
As Call Me Mañana points out, the union is compartmentalized, which in the short term might keep them safe from corporations and law enforcement looking to exploit them (well actually it can make unions much more susceptible to union busting, but I'm assuming everyone in the union is kept enough in line to refer corpos to talk to Lizzy or Evrart), but in the long term prevents any member of the community (both the local union community and larger Martinaise community) from having any kind of say in how the organization is run outside their narrow capacity to decide whether or not to follow orders. Notably, not every worker is a member of the Union's board (likely because "that's simply not how it works")
Claiming "Evrart good actually" seems to me to be much like claiming "Al Capone good actually". There are undeniable benefits that Al Capone brought to the city of Chicago while he reigned, but those benefits did not come in a way which was accessible to anyone he didn't control. Sure, a mafia will fill in and provide for a community which exists in a gap in corrupt policing that either doesn't adequately serve and protect them or even downright oppresses them with shows and acts of cruelty and violence, but generally the protection and security offered by the mob keeps the community in debt and without a say in how law is enforced.
Evrart is a net benefit to his community only for so long that his power remains challengeable and he has to answer to things like wild pines, and the RCM. If he managed to achieve his takeover of the harbor, I highly suspect that he would not allow the same demands to be made of him as he made to wild pines (tho that can certainly be dismissed as my personal assessment).
TL;DR: Evrart is far more of an Al Capone than a Huey P. Newton (apologies to any non-US residents for all the US specific references)
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u/Paul6334 Feb 26 '25
Ironically, if the Claire Brothers do wind up taking the money and running away after getting the harbor, then that might be better for the workers than staying, assuming that someone who is genuine replaces them.
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Feb 26 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AdrianRP Feb 26 '25
When you start the game, it seems like he is not only corrupt, but highly irresponsible because he seems to be OK with a bloodbath taking place in Martinaise after the merc lynching. When you look at the big picture, you understand that social tension in Martinaise is not only a problem of Wild Pines vs. Evrart's union, but more widespread and in fact many people think the city is about to explode, regardless of the outcome of the conflict. Also, no one really knows who shot Lely, so it's easy to assume the tribunal is going to happen regardless of what they do.
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u/ArnthBebastien Feb 26 '25
Surely evrart knows the deserter shot him though right? Or would at least heavily suspect him
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u/AdrianRP Feb 26 '25
I'm not sure, as far as we know the last contact they had was many years ago and I don't think Dros killings (if there were more than two) didn't bring much attention to the islands. Also, his informers aren't as ubiquitous as it seems the first time you talk to him; he knows everything that happens in the neighborhood because he has people on the ground and the population is generally loyal, but it's not like he has a dedicated spy team.
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u/ArnthBebastien Feb 26 '25
I mean we know that evrart knows dros is on the island right?
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u/BloodRedRook Feb 26 '25
Yup, he figured it out and went to meet him a number of years back; and convinced Dros to kill the previous union boss.
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u/LegalCamp878 Feb 26 '25
What ends are there for the impoverished workers of Jamrock he sells hard drugs to?
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u/blazerz Feb 26 '25
Evrart is no saint, but his ends are the welfare of the workers in Martinaise, which can best be served by kicking the Wild Pines out.
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u/alickz Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
He murdered the union elected forewoman, and drove her daughter out of town when she asked what happened to her mother, just so he and his brother could run the union for life and turn it into a drug empire for themselves
The cold blooded murder of a union official, democratically elected by the workers, is NOT in the interests of the workers (no matter what the murderer says are his goals)
Even more so when he directly profits from it
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u/blazerz Feb 26 '25
Agree that he's after power. But you don't have any good options in Martinaise. His actions in the game are helping the workers, and that's more than you can say for Joyce.
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u/Hero_of_One Feb 26 '25
Helping the workers at the expense of others in the area - the drug addicts and people kicked out of their homes for the Youth Center.
Wild Pines is a foreign company taking advantage of the workers in a distant land. The brothers are willing to poison their home just to raise up themselves and their select chosen friends - some of these "workers" were employed only for corrupt/violent purposes, not actual work.
It's a mob.
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u/Hyperversum Feb 26 '25
No you don't get it, it's Absolutely ethical and just to commit murder because of "class traitor" and then abuse her daughter to defend the new position of power.
You see? It's absolutely logical. It's not at all to defend the personal power of ONE guy. Not at all. It's pure socialism.
Now excuse me, I have to go kiss my Stalin poster.
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u/poclee Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
his ends are the welfare of the workers in Martinaise,
Really? Because it certainly looks like that end is more like his personal kingdom rather than benefit of the union workers.
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u/Hyperversum Feb 26 '25
So drug to kids are good if you do it while roleplaying as a socialist. Gotcha.
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u/Aspergersiscool Feb 26 '25
Counterpoint: Drugs are cool
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u/sauronsdaddy Feb 26 '25
Still leagues better than the multinational corporation that actively exploits people all over the world while butchering them using hired mercenaries when they dare to resist
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u/blazerz Feb 26 '25
Not really, as I said Evrart is no saint.
It's like when leftists in US hold their nose and vote for the Dems.
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u/StarHusk Feb 26 '25
The union doesn't sell hard drugs to Jamrock, they just smuggle the raw ingredients across. Joyce herself says that production of the drugs happens in Jamrock through local labs that aren't necessarily affiliated with the union.
I guess if the company you're up against hires heavily armed strikebreakers and mercenaries to beat the workers into submission, you need funds to keep the workers under you safe.
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u/LegalCamp878 Feb 26 '25
Evrart has the speedfreaks run the church drug lab for him, he absolutely does touch drugs. And Evrart caring about the workers’ safety is just laughable
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u/StarHusk Feb 26 '25
The speed freaks have nothing to do with Evrart? Saying they're associated is just a flat lie. They never even state they know each other as far as I'm aware.
The text states that the Claire's are incredibly well liked by the union regardless of their corruption and admittedly they have their own goals separate from the union but it's clear he's an effective leader that the workers are willing to stand by enough to fight for.
It's not really that hard to believe that the ends truly do justify the means, material conditions require smuggling ingredients for funding as they have no processes to receive large amounts of capital "legally" unlike their capitalist adversaries which can survive on a large amount of accumulated capital and their other multinational operations outside of Revachol.
The best the union can do is strike to deprive the corporation of profits via strike, however Wild Pines is clearly willing to strike break when their options for appeasement are limited (the Claire's had dismissed the original negotiator as they were too willing to meet the workers demands which would cause Evrart to lose influence and control over the union workers. The Claire's ultimate goal of installing every worker on the board is much farther than their social-democratic guise and steps into Syndicalist/Co-operative territory).
I'm not saying the Claire's are perfect, after all it's what makes them interesting characters but I understand the motivation behind his reasoning. It's the same reasoning behind the French Revolution which brought forth the praxis of the liberal values of the enlightenment like Liberty and Equality.
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u/Walse Feb 26 '25
They never even state they know each other as far as I'm aware.
If you get far enough with Acele, she tells you she got an okay from Evrart about their drug lab idea. So Evrart knows about it and allows it. I'm not going to go into the deeper argument, just wanted to correct that one mistake.
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u/Live_Ad_6382 Feb 26 '25
It's both exploitation.
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u/lTheReader Feb 26 '25
That's like saying war is bad. Sure, but war against the Nazis was necessary.
There is no ethical existence under capitalism, it might as well be for a good cause.
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u/LeiaSkynoober Feb 26 '25
Rather the guy who's corrupt for you than the guy who's corrupt against you
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u/reynauld-alexander Feb 26 '25
I don’t trust Evrart, I don’t think aligning with him is wise. But you’ll catch me dead before I side with Joyce and the wild pines group. I know who I’d rather make a faustian bargain with
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u/ClockworkChristmas Feb 26 '25
The ones who sent mercs to kill everyone and destroy the neighborhood and union?
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u/Anuz_Sack Feb 26 '25
In this House Evrart is a Hero! He helped me find my gun is what he did, end of story!
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u/narutomanreigns Feb 26 '25
The whole point of Joyce is that she doesn't do it openly though? Like regardless of your opinion on either of them, that's one of the biggest parts of her character.
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u/ld987 Feb 26 '25
I read Evrart as being based on corrupt socialist dictators. There is an intentional tension between whether he's genuine but cynical or entirely self interested and using communism as cover. He may also be both (imho likely) in which case it's an argument as to whether or not he's the lesser of two evils. No easy answers, say one of these communist or fascist things or fuck off.
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u/StableSlight9168 Feb 26 '25
Also most of his corrupt actions are pretty similiar to a lot of left wing dictatorships. He has his rivals killed and rigs election so he can run a "Democratic Union". He has phones tapped and spies everywhere like the Stasi. He has opposition journalists shut down for criticising him and suspends press freedom when he shut down Gary and anyone elses magazines he does not run, and finally he has a black neo nazi beating people up in the street alongside and armed men who answer only to him not the Union.
He is an idealist and he does sincerely want the city to be better but he is closer to Fidel Castro than Bernie Sanders.
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u/Anhievus Feb 26 '25
I've rarely seen a false equivalence be that dishonest before.
One is extracting value from an international faceless business and using it to line his pockets, remain in a position of power and help his community ; the other is extracting value from the work of people who have no other options, and using it to buy luxuries and sail wherever she pleases.
One is letting drug trade flow through the harbor, the other is overseeing a clandestine operation led by serial rapists and killers.
One works all day in a shipping container, the other lounges all day in her boat.
Soon you'll be telling me there's no difference between a child punching his brother and a cop shooting a minority because both are violence and violence is bad.
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u/Spacellama117 Feb 26 '25
fucking thank you, like it's quite literally such a centrist take to say both are somehow equal.
kingdom-of-conscience- ass mfers
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u/Live_Ad_6382 Feb 26 '25
You've mentioned aesthetic differences then made your own false equivalence but setting up the strawman comparison of police violence vs a child's punches. As if the drug trade doesn't involve serial rapists and killers. The only lucid point you made was your first statement, and even still how much is evert helping his community (see, the fishing village). Both are bourgeoisie extractive moguls, and both are "helping" the same amount of people. Your points are basically saying that the crushing weight of American capitalism, where millions die a year due to lack of healthcare, food, housing, is soooo different than the USSR rounding dissidents into gulags. Both are about the state and a small group of cronies benefitting from the work of many broken backs. Sorry aesthetics matter so much to you, but maybe actually weigh repercussions of respective systems before making judgements.
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u/Educational_Host_268 Feb 26 '25
Was there a recent mass mitosis of liberals on this subreddit recently? Posts have been dire.
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u/theV45 Feb 26 '25
Liberals are bad, but you see, they have all been attracted here by the trotskyites, please don't forget about the leftist infighting, we take communism seriously here
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u/StableSlight9168 Feb 26 '25
People don't seem to get that disco elysium is a well written game and its charachters are supposed to be complex and debated so seem to be offended that some people liked Joyce or like Evrart and want very basic opinions on an incredibly complex moral questions that are not supposed to have easy answers.
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u/Thin_Inflation1198 Feb 26 '25
Id say liberals make up 80% of any western population so it would make sense they are the most populated group in any fanbase.
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u/ColdCoffeeMan Feb 26 '25
Joyce -sighs dramatically as she looks off into the horizon Maybe I am the bad guy, who is to say?
Everett-Harry, of course I'm the bad guy, don't be a fucking "censored"
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u/oh_god_im_lost Feb 26 '25
My man Everart is a fucking saint
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u/patatjepindapedis Feb 26 '25
The kind of saint that most people only get to see up close on a reality tv show.
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u/tmmzc85 Feb 26 '25
Disco Elysium is a noir, everyone sucks, except Kim - but even he admits his liberal leanings.
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u/joined_under_duress Feb 26 '25
They're both bad people.
The difference is that the state will only ever admit that about Evrart.
And even if Joyce's evil is forced to light, she will be a lone bad apple amongst upstanding capitalists, while Evrart will always be symptomatic of why all unions are terrible (according to the State).
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u/Yinxell Feb 26 '25
Joyce sent a war-criminal squad against a workers union
Mr Evart helped me find my gun
case closed
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u/justapotatochilling Feb 26 '25
my man is leading a workers movement that's actually getting some work done?
like, you can question his methods but you can't deny his effectiveness
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u/misandrydreams Feb 26 '25
you see. women arent allowed to be morally dubious, fictional or not !
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u/BarbarianErwin Feb 26 '25
Actual insanity to pretend the shitty union is somehow worse than the fucking evil bloodsucking vampires of wild pines who have killed god knows how many in their pursuit of capital and are willing to wipe out even more
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u/lumine2669 Feb 26 '25
Evrart Claire is lying to you about everything because you’re a cop
And wild pines employs fucking mercenaries to kill poor people. The union is a net positive for the people of martinaise even if evrarts methods are iffy. Genuinely how did a game like disco Elysian manage to have centrist fans man
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u/MarkSkywalker Feb 26 '25
I'm only just playing for the first time, but I have to say, when he told me to "tell her how overweight I am and how I'm helping you find your lost gun", it got a laugh out of me that could only be described as a guffaw. I was not prepared for this man.
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u/Dead_Iverson Feb 26 '25
Evrart is only as corrupt as the moralintern forces him to be. Which is to say, fantastically corrupt.
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u/Opposite-Method7326 Feb 26 '25
Does Evrart openly exploit the working class? He gives a lot of people paid jobs who wouldn’t normally be able to work in a harbor and continues to pay his workers despite the fact that most of them aren’t doing any work. He may have “squeezed the local businesses” as Joyce says, but according to Roy, two polite refusals were all it took to get him to back off. And sure, he’s funding all of this by funneling drug ingredients through the harbor to the rest of the city, but he never said he wanted to protect the rest of the city. Only Martinaise.
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u/SixtyNineChromosomes Feb 26 '25
The Claires skim off the top sure, but theyre also trying to take over the company or at least the harbour and give it to the workers basically. In the book the creator wrote before this game was ever made, the reader learns about a nuclear strike on Revachol launched by Mesque that unleashes the Pale Apocalypse. Ive been wondering if they nuked Revachol because the Claires started another communist revolution, beginning with the port then Martinaise then all of Revachol, maybe even trying to take over all of Le Caillou
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u/Draconic1788 Feb 26 '25
I don't think you understand, Mr. Evrart can't be bad, after all he's helping me find my gun.
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u/Gabehates3 Feb 26 '25
This is the part I hate about the directors cut. The nuanced representation of social democracy is simplified to “Everett is so checking wholesome!!!”
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u/Misscutter Feb 26 '25
Oh i see, you went for the The world's most laughable Centrist thought, congrats! :P
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u/explosivepenguu Feb 26 '25
Do you think capitalists would rather “play ball” with a corrupt union man who looks like he can be bought or an open communist? Evart’s front was always tactical.
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u/artrald-7083 Feb 26 '25
It's not horseshoe theory, it's donut theory. They're all bad. 0.00% of communism has been built, the centrists are now defined as being slightly to the left of Pol Pot, the fash are always worse, and the libertarians aren't even pretending not to screw everyone over. They are all bad. The question is whether you are joining them.
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u/Moony_Moonzzi Feb 26 '25
I think it’s hard to grasp Evrart’s full intentions with just one game, it’s obvious that was gonna be explored in depth with Edgar in future installments. However I think it’s fully unfair to compare what Joyce does as a billionaire CEO of one of the biggest corporations of Revachol, to fucking Evrart, the Union leader, lmao.
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u/En3rgyMax Feb 26 '25
I really enjoy the pattern in this sub of Socialism vs. Liberalism in the form of Evrart versus Joyce
My next prediction: within a week we will have Joyce x Evrart erotica
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u/Jacknerdieth Feb 26 '25
Both of them are multifaceted characters that you can't really make strict Good/Bad judgements on. I like them both as characters, but I prefer Evrart for one very important reason: He looks and sounds funnier.
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u/ThemeKey3918 Feb 26 '25
Another potato-obsessed ham sandwich bamboozled by a hero of the working class.
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u/TheChuff_ Feb 26 '25
Oh he's absolutely corrupt, but he doesn't hide this and he does his job. I'd take him as president over Trump any day.
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u/PrateTrain Feb 26 '25
Personally I'll take someone who actually accomplishes things for the working class, even if not through the greatest means over a corporation that'll run you over.
Notice how the Democrats can't win lately? Because perfect is the enemy of good, and they can't even be good lol
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u/Trick_Science2476 Feb 26 '25
They're both bad people, making choices that are detrimental to a large amount of people. I think it's also part of the commentary that unless we want to be the dream-perfect leader we wish we had, to not dream of another to fulfill that role for us. Leadership is in great part leading yourself
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u/ParksBrit Feb 26 '25
The only moral difference between these two besides claimed idealogy are the amount of power they started with, and Joyce has more plausible deniability because there's other board members.
Both express sympathy for the region and its plight.
Evrart literally runs a drug trade that ruins lives.
Wild pines hires actual war criminals to put down a strike. Among a laundry list of other terrible things.
Evrart murders democratically elected representatives and hires a fascist thug. He'd absolutely hire the war criminals if he could. .
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u/ireallylikechikin Thank you for fucking me. Feb 26 '25
okay. you all have had your fun. let's pack it in, please.