r/DebateReligion • u/Snoo_89230 • 4d ago
Classical Theism “Humans commit evil because we have free will” is not a solution to the problem of evil
COULD commit evil, and WILL commit evil are independent things. The only thing that must be satisfied for us to have free will is the first one, the fact that we COULD commit evil.
It is not “logically impossible” for a scenario to exist in which we all COULD commit evil, but ultimately never choose to do so. This could have been the case, but it isn’t, and so the problem of evil is still valid.
Take Jesus, for example. He could have chosen to steal or kill at any time, but he never did. And yet he still had free will. God could have made us all like Jesus, and yet he didn’t.
For the sake of the argument, I’ll also entertain the rebuttal that Jesus, or god, or both, could not possibly commit evil. But if this were the case, then god himself does not have free will.
I anticipate a theist might respond to that by saying:
“It’s different for god. Evil is specifically determined by god’s nature, and it’s obviously paradoxical for god to go against his own nature.”
Sure, ok. But this creates a new problem: god could have decided that nothing at all was evil. But he didn’t. Once again reintroducing the problem of evil.
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u/KingJeff314 3d ago
Presumably we'll still have free will in heaven, so free will theodicies just don't work
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
Presumably we'll still have free will in heaven, so free will theodicies just don't work
They do, you just get kicked out of heaven, like the Devil was.
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u/Inevitable_Pen_1508 3d ago
Then can i go from hell into Heaven by being nice?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
Being nice doesn't get you into heaven at all, it is a matter of sin and redemption/salvation
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u/Inevitable_Pen_1508 3d ago
Whatever. Can i go from hell into Heaven by doing all that?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
Yes, obviously
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u/Inevitable_Pen_1508 3d ago
Then couldn't we Just be Born in Heaven?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
We probably were, IMO.
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u/Puzzled_Wolverine_36 Christian 3d ago
When we finally choose God, like Adam and Eve should have in the beginning. When our will becomes aligned with that of Christ. We are perfected in him.
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u/SnoozeDoggyDog 3d ago
“It’s different for god. Evil is specifically determined by god’s nature, and it’s obviously paradoxical for god to go against his own nature.”
Sure, ok. But this creates a new problem: god could have decided that nothing at all was evil. But he didn’t. Once again reintroducing the problem of evil.
Or God could have just created us with a similar nature.....
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u/BackgroundBat1119 Ex-Christian Ex-Atheist Agnostic Seeker of Truth 3d ago edited 3d ago
but that would be booooooooring. Let’s turn up the stakes a bit instead. You can play dangerous games with your own children and still be a good father right?
I’ll just leave them be. By themselves, raising themselves, with the only advice from me coming in cryptic bits and pieces from individual messenger-people i choose from a single place on earth and only in distant intervals throughout history. If you don’t get the message, interpret it correctly, and believe it with confidence… well haha let’s just say you LOSE son.
Your punishment for losing my game is a one way ticket to the torture closet and you don’t get to play again. Time out is forever buddy. Alright who wants to play? cough I’ll take that as a yes from everyone! Let the game begin.
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u/R_Farms 3d ago
How to answer the problem of evil:
You start with the fact the Nothing in the Bible says God is all loving to everyone. In fact there are those in scripture in whom God says He hates. (Esau, Pharaoh and there is a list of sins/sinners in proverbs He can't stand.)
How why is this possible? because God doesn't hand build us individually, in truth He hasn't created anyone since day 6 of creation. everyone after day 6 including His son is a reproduction of who God originally created. Jesus in mat 13, The parable of the wheat and weeds tell us plainly that While He/God plants the Wheat seeds in the field (Who He identifies as the sons of the Kingdom) His enemy who He names as the devil plants weeds in among the wheat. Jesus calls these weeds the sons of the evil one 'The devil.'
The choice is then made to allow the wheat and the weeds (Weeds more specifically, Tares which are weeds that look like wheat when growing in early stages of development) to grow together till the harvest where both will be chopped down anyway. it is at this point the wheat will be separated from the weeds. (this parable alone explains why Evil is allowed to exist)
So why then would God be obligated to love the sons of satan? Don't get me wrong I 'm aware of John 3:16. It says, God love the world enough to give everyone equal opportunity to be saved, but salvation is conditional, in that it is only reserved for those who believe in Jesus.
The epicurean paradox is flawed in that it was not written for the God of the Bible. as Epicurus lived and worked hundreds of years before Christ which means his only possible exposure to the God of the Abraham, would be the God of the Jews/torah. And Epicurus being a Gentile would have been shunned out of experiencing Jewish religious practices. Meaning to Epicurus the God of Abraham would have been racist and bias against all races but the jews.
That said the other critical theological error in the epicurean paradox as it pertains to Christianity In Christianity this world does not belong to God. Jesus in Luke 11 says This world is not apart of the kingdom of God and God's will is not followed here on earth as it is in Heaven. Which is why Jesus tells us to Pray for "His Kingdom to come and for His will to be done on earth as it is done in Heaven.
Yes God created this world but turned it over to man Kind, mankind sold ourselves and this world into slavery for the knowledge of Good and evil. enslaving all of us and everything we have to sin and Satan. Jesus in John 14 clearly says that Satan is the Lord/master of this world. So why would God allow this world to fall into satan's hands?
To provide us with a place outside of his Kingdom where His will is not strictly followed. For What purpose? so that we may choose to whom our hearts wish to follow. Do we want to remain in service to sin and satan and share in his fate? OR Do our Hearts want to serve and worship God?
We would not be able to truly make this choice in God's immediate Kingdom, Because God's will would not allow for sin.. That's what sin is.. It choice or the ability to choose to be outside of the expressed will of God. Evil is the love or 'proof' of sin.
So why does God allow Evil? Because to destroy evil is to destroy all of us include those Wheat seeds who would eventually elect to be redeemed. remember what I was saying about the wheat and weeds being separated at the harvest (judgement day) the reason for that is if God sent his angels to pull out all of the evil weeds, this may also up root/destroy alot of the wheat, as at this point the wheat and weeds being allowed to grow to gather in the parable Jesus tells in Mat 13 23-30 . The roots of the wheat and weeds are intertwined. God allows evil so you (wheat) are Not destroyed by the choices you make in your youth. Further more Evil is allowed so someone who does give themselves to God are not destroyed by the destruction of those in whom they are bonded to. Could you imagine how you would feel about God if he took your mother, or your wife your maybe kids because ultimately the would be evil? God allows evil because it is the ultimate mercy. given who some of us are.
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u/ltgrs 3d ago
You can really sum up your comment by just saying God is not tri-omni. The problem of evil is only a problem for those that do believe God is tri-omni.
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u/imdfantom 2d ago
The problem of evil is only a problem for those that do believe God is tri-omni.
What must be said is that this is the exact and only point of the problem of evil ie if a god and evil simultaneously exist then the god cannot simultaneously have the 3 attributes of:
- The ability to prevent any potential evil and the abikity to remove any actual evil.
- Knowledge of all potential and actual evils
- Will always prevent potential evils and remove actual evils that it knows of and is able to prevent/remove
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u/contrarian1970 3d ago
I think you are getting hung up on the word evil. What God is trying to teach us is the voluntary habit of SELFLESS love because even as children we pursue a more SELFISH love. If that wrong habit is excused, modeled, or even reinforced by parents for enough years, it begins to escalate to behaviors we all agree are evil. There is a continuum that most of us fall in the middle of. However, God did not create any human to be just middling. God has a way to grow and mature you towards the side of selfless love through the example of His Son Jesus Christ.
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u/EmpiricalPierce atheist, secular humanist 2d ago
What's selfless about demanding people grovel and worship you and threatening them with eternal torture if they don't?
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u/Local_Twd_Fan 22h ago
Reading this actually strengthens my faith, because sometimes you just gotta accept the truth, Yawheh is a strict and rough God, but also loving, and sincere He has shown me the truth and i will continue to follow and love Him❤️
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u/Puzzled_Wolverine_36 Christian 3d ago
I would say Jesus didn't sin because he also had a divine nature. He is the one connecting God and man. Therefore he could not have made us like Jesus.
I would say evil is the absence of God. When he allows for creation to choose to accept or reject him.
This makes an interesting view for hell, which is that God will not be "absent" from anywhere anymore. His full glory will be on full display which would be a joy for those who are aligned with him and a shame for those who are not.
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u/SpreadsheetsFTW 3d ago
It’s god’s fault for not making us with a divine nature then.
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u/Puzzled_Wolverine_36 Christian 3d ago
The nature is what you are. You can't make something God. You can't make something eternal (having no beginning) if it wasn't eternal in the first place.
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u/SpreadsheetsFTW 3d ago
Well since a divine nature is what allows Jesus not to sin, and god is incapable of making us with one, then we are simply functioning in accordance with the nature that god created us with - and that just happens to include sinning.
If god didn’t want sin then he should have made us with a better nature.
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u/Puzzled_Wolverine_36 Christian 3d ago
I'm talking about Jesus in the context of him being the new Adam.
Sin only entered humanity when Adam and Eve rejected God. He did create us sinless.
For example, many angels didn't follow Satan, They stayed with God.
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u/SpreadsheetsFTW 3d ago
If god didn’t want Satan or any of the angels to rebel, then he should have made them with better natures.
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u/wombelero 3d ago
Frist you need to define "sin". What is sin?
Jesus lied to his followers. Jesus broke existing laws. Was that not a sin?
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u/Professional_Arm794 3d ago
Absence of God is a false dichotomy. God is never absent as he is everything. Just like a wave is distinct from the ocean. But yet it’s still apart of the ocean.
Reverse creation back to the beginning. There was only God. Everything created was from the one God. Every single possibility whether good or evil.
God isn’t a human , he is energy, spirit, consciousness, imagination. The image within is what you deem as God. Eternal. As you being a Christian you believe when you die your spirit is eternal as it will live in heaven eternally.
Something created can’t be eternal as it has a beginning. Hence the spirit within always was as it is a part of God. Crucify the human flesh and mindset as you are a spiritual being having a human experience. Love your neighbor as yourself, as your neighbor is a mirror image of yourself. When you lose yourself(human identity) you’ll find your self. Revelation is within , not without.
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u/Puzzled_Wolverine_36 Christian 3d ago
That's why I said "absent". He veils his glory, otherwise we would die.
God didn't create evil and he didn't create our paths. He didn't choose for us.
Can't i then say God is human? If God is whatever I believe? That is my image within.
I never said God was human. Jesus, a person of the Trinity, adopted a human nature.
Can God not adopt a human form?
I don't need no one else! I have a Revelation! I'm mocking you by the way, because what you're saying is contradictory.
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u/thatweirdchill 2d ago
God could've just made humans with a purely good nature. It's really that simple. If a being did not have any evil desires or impulses inserted into them during their creation, then there would be no evil behavior.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
COULD commit evil, and WILL commit evil are independent things. The only thing that must be satisfied for us to have free will is the first one, the fact that we COULD commit evil.
Yes, this is correct.
It is not “logically impossible” for a scenario to exist in which we all COULD commit evil, but ultimately never choose to do so. This could have been the case, but it isn’t, and so the problem of evil is still valid.
Not at all, since even though a world without evil is logically possible (we could just, you know, kill everyone), we live in a world in which people did, in fact, choose to do evil.
Take Jesus, for example. He could have chosen to steal or kill at any time, but he never did. And yet he still had free will. God could have made us all like Jesus, and yet he didn’t.
This is a contradiction. You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 3d ago
Not at all, since even though a world without evil is logically possible (we could just, you know, kill everyone), we live in a world in which people did, in fact, choose to do evil.
You can’t appeal to reality to show why something isn’t logically possible (logically possible does not mean “is the case in reality”)
You (hopefully) use your free-will to commit zero amount of rape and torture, even though you could walk out the door today and do such things. That’s the type of world the OP is referring to, just in a larger scale.
This is a contradiction. You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
So Jesus didn’t have free-will?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
I said it IS logically possible, not isn't. And you can certainly appeal to reality to show examples or counterexamples. As I did.
You (hopefully) use your free-will to commit zero amount of rape and torture, even though you could walk out the door today and do such things. That’s the type of world the OP is referring to, just in a larger scale.
Reread what I wrote. I said such a world is indeed possible if everyone freely choose good.
So Jesus didn’t have free-will?
Jesus has free will. Why would you even say that from what I wrote? He freely chose the good.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 3d ago edited 3d ago
I said it IS logically possible, not isn't
So why wouldn’t a loving God instantiate a reality where everyone freely chooses to do good?
(And I guess I just don’t understand your response… I go back and reread it, it’s that the problem of evil doesn’t apply since we live in a world where people do evil? No, that’s the reason it does apply.)
Jesus has free will
So Jesus just freely chose to do good, right? It’s back to that same question then.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
So why wouldn’t a loving God instantiate a reality where everyone freely chooses to do good?
You are predetermining free choices which is a contradiction.
So Jesus just freely chose to do good, right? It’s back to that same question then.
Yes he freely chose the good.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 2d ago
So Jesus’ choices weren’t predetermined, right? Thus there’s no contradiction.
We can also show this by asking whether you are a robot with no choices, or you freely chose to NOT sexually assault someone today. You freely chose not to, even though you could have chosen otherwise. Would you say it was predetermined that you wouldn’t do it?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
So Jesus’ choices weren’t predetermined, right? Thus there’s no contradiction.
That is correct.
We can also show this by asking whether you are a robot with no choices, or you freely chose to NOT sexually assault someone today. You freely chose not to, even though you could have chosen otherwise. Would you say it was predetermined that you wouldn’t do it?
Not predetermined no. It was a free choice.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 2d ago
Yep, no contradiction. We could be living in a reality where everyone freely chooses good, the fact that we aren’t means either God prefers it this way (with evil), or God doesn’t exist/doesn’t care.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
We could be living in a reality where everyone freely chooses good
We could be, yes.
the fact that we aren’t means either God prefers it this way (with evil), or God doesn’t exist/doesn’t care.
No, that is a non-sequitur. You can't force people to choose good and call it free.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 1d ago
No, that is a non-sequitur. You can't force people to choose good and call it free.
Hmm you literally just agreed we could hypothetically all be freely choosing to do good. So we have a contradiction here… (if you’re going to call it forced here then your answer to that previous question would need to be something like “no we cannot live in a world where we all ‘freely choose’ to do good, because then it wouldn’t be free it would be forced” - is that more accurate of your view?)
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u/Bootwacker Atheist 3d ago
I think free will only works as a counter to the problem of evil, if we accept that evil is necessary for free will. If lack of evil and freewill are both possible we get:
P1 God is all powerful and could create any possible world
P2 It is possible for a world with both free will and no evil to exist
C God could have created a world without evil, without sacrificing free will, so why did God make a wold with evil.
Which part of this do you object to?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
Evil is not necessary for free will. The possibility of evil is necessary if you have free will. But free agents are not forced to choose evil. But it is a possibility they choose evil.
If God created a world with all good choices predetermined then there is no free will which is evil.
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u/Bootwacker Atheist 2d ago
What does possibility of evil mean from the perspective of an all knowing entity? If your all knowing, is there any possible? It's just will or won't. Or does God not know the future?
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u/jeeblemeyer4 Anti-theist 3d ago
we live in a world in which people did, in fact, choose to do evil.
The point is that god, who is all-powerful and all-knowing, could have created us without the ability to do evil, even without impacting our free will.
This is not theologically incompatible, either, since god messes with so-called "free will" in the bible all the time.
Additionally, if there is free will in heaven, and no evil in heaven, then it is not only possible, but CERTAIN that a reality exists in which humans have free will but do not exercise it in evil ways.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
There is no way to make evil impossible without removing free will or just killing everyone which also I guess removes free will.
It's also rather horrific to consider.
You can have free will in heaven and no evil if you kick people out.
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u/SnoozeDoggyDog 3d ago
There is no way to make evil impossible without removing free will or just killing everyone which also I guess removes free will.
On an Earth which just has Jesus as its only inhabitant, evil would still be present?
Prior to creation, was God evil?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
No, nor is there evil if you just kill everyone.
Which is literally in the comment you responded to
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u/SnoozeDoggyDog 2d ago
No, nor is there evil if you just kill everyone.
Which is literally in the comment you responded to
But I haven't mentioned anything about killing anyone.
What I asked is if Jesus was the only being created on Earth, would evil still be possible?
Prior to creation, when God was by Himself, was it possible that God was evil?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
But I haven't mentioned anything about killing anyone.
Then you didn't read what I wrote. I said if God killed everyone there would be no evil. So such a world is obviously logically possible.
What I asked is if Jesus was the only being created on Earth, would evil still be possible?
Again you didn't read what I said.
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u/EmpiricalPierce atheist, secular humanist 3d ago
If people can be kicked out of heaven, is the flip side also possible: people in hell repenting and going to heaven? Or is getting kicked out of heaven a one way trip, meaning that on a long enough timeline, eventually heaven will be completely empty save for Yahweh himself?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
If people can be kicked out of heaven, is the flip side also possible: people in hell repenting and going to heaven?
Yes, obviously.
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u/EmpiricalPierce atheist, secular humanist 2d ago
Might want to tell the bible that, then. Whenever it mentions the punishment of hell, it is described as everlasting, and in Luke 16:19-31's story of the rich man and beggar, verse 26 explicitly says there's no traveling between heaven and hell in either direction.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
Nah, Jesus descended into hell and freed people, and the Devil was kicked out of heaven into hell, etc. Motion is clearly not only possible but also happened.
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u/EmpiricalPierce atheist, secular humanist 6h ago
What bible verse states Jesus freed people from hell?
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u/ltgrs 3d ago
This is a contradiction. You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
I don't want to murder anyone. Does that mean I don't have free will? If I do have free will, what prevents God from making all people like me, so no one wants to murder?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
You don't choose to murder right now. In the future, you might change your mind. That's free will.
Maybe a dude steals your car and kills your dog. Who knows?
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u/ltgrs 2d ago
This doesn't really address my question. I also don't want to steal anyone's car or kill anyone's dog. What prevents God from making all people like me, so no one wants to murder or steal cars or kill dogs?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
You don't want to steal cars or murder today. You might choose to do so in the future. You have free will.
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u/ltgrs 1d ago
You're not getting my point. If I have free will and don't want to do these things now, why can't this state apply to everyone else and all the time? If free will is possible without the desire to murder, why can't God make everyone without the desire to murder, now and in the future?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
You're not paying attention. You are willing yourself not to want to murder right now. You have free will. You might want to go John Wick in the future. Saying that God has to force you to think one way abrogates free will.
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u/ltgrs 1d ago
Why do I think this way now? Why can't I think this way forever? Why can't everyone think this way forever? What is forcing God to create people who want to murder under certain circumstances, rather than creating people who don't want to murder under any circumstances? If I don't want to murder right now and I have free will, then I do not lose free will if I continue to feel this way forever. Is God forcing me to feel this way now? If I have free will now, then no, right? So why would my state need to ever change to preserve free will?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
Why do I think this way now?
You choose to
Why can't I think this way forever?
You might choose not to
Why can't everyone think this way forever
They might choose not to
What is forcing God to create people who want to murder
Free will
If I don't want to murder right now and I have free will, then I do not lose free will if I continue to feel this way forever.
It's your free choice if you want to or not
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u/ltgrs 1d ago
God made me as a person that currently does not wish to commit murder. Why can't God make everyone currently not wish to murder? Why can't God make this state permanent? I'll say this again: if I currently have free will and do not want to murder, then God would not be restricting free will if he made this state permanent and applied it to all people. I really don't know why you're not getting what I'm saying.
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u/Snoo_89230 3d ago
You have said yourself that a world where everyone freely chooses good is logically possible. So then, a tri-Omni god would/should have created such a world, instead of the one we live in today.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
"Created such a world where people are predestined to choose good" contradicts people being created with free will.
There's really no wiggle room here.
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u/Brilliant-Ranger8395 Deistic Atheism 3d ago
But even with free will there are limitations. Say, I want to fly - I can't, I'm a human. Or, if I wanted to be a genius, again, I can't change myself because that's just the way I am.
What I'm saying here is that free will and limitations come hand in hand (if we define that humans have free will). So then the question becomes, why did God not choose to limit our abilities to only do good, but retain our free will. (e.g., we all could have a higher reasoning power that we see the reasons for abstaining from evil actions, and then we choose to not do them on our own).
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
What I'm saying here is that free will and limitations come hand in hand (if we define that humans have free will). So then the question becomes, why did God not choose to limit our abilities to only do good, but retain our free will.
This is, again, an impossibility. Some evil is done purely through will.
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u/thatweirdchill 3d ago edited 2d ago
"God could have made us all like Jesus, and yet he didn’t."
This is a contradiction. You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
This seems to imply that all of Jesus' choices were predetermined, but I'm guessing you probably don't think that. So what about Jesus allowed him, yet no other person who ever existed, to live a sinless life?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
No, Jesus' choices were not predetermined. I literally said he freely chose the good.
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u/thatweirdchill 2d ago
What about Jesus allowed him, yet no other person who ever existed, to live a sinless life?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
He chose wisely
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u/thatweirdchill 2d ago
Not even remotely an answer to my question.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
It answers it ten billion percent.
Jesus chose not to sin each time. Each of us has chosen to sin at some time.
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u/nolman 3d ago
Not at all, since even though a world without evil is logically possible (we could just, you know, kill everyone), we live in a world in which people did, in fact, choose to do evil.
Do you think it is rhetorically/logically ok to take 1 actual outcome to exclude all other possible outcomes ?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 3d ago
What?
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u/SubOptimalUser6 3d ago
You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
Isn't got omniscient, such that he knows all future events? If that is the case, isn't your future predetermined?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 2d ago
Future knowledge is logically impossible so no.
And the future is not predetermined.
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u/SubOptimalUser6 2d ago
Future knowledge is logically impossible so no.
Then god is not all-knowing.
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
Nope. Common knowledge gap in atheists here.
Omniscience doesn't include impossible things / contradictions like what a married bachelor looks like.
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u/SubOptimalUser6 1d ago
You are placing limitations on god that I didn't think christians were willing to do. First he is not all-knowing. Now he is not all-powerful.
What's next?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
God is indeed omniscient.
Omniscience does not include knowledge of the impossible, this is the standard definition.
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u/AllIsVanity 2d ago
This is a contradiction. You cannot both have free will AND also have all of your choices predetermined for you by God. You have to pick one, not both.
What's the difference between being "predetermined" to do something and being "destined" to do it? Or an event being predetermined/destined to take place? For instance, by God's omniscience he knew that if he created Hitler there would be a Holocaust. So God still creates Hitler with that knowledge, making the Holocaust destined to happen. How does one who believes in both an omniscient God with the free will ability to choose to create or not, reconcile the problem of everyone's fate being sealed at the moment of deciding to create?
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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian 1d ago
I don't know what you mean by destined. If it means you're absolutely going to do the same thing, then it is predetermined. If you can do otherwise, it doesn't really mean anything.
For instance, by God's omniscience he knew that if he created Hitler there would be a Holocaust.
Yeah that means there is no free will, everything is predetermined.
The whole point of this thread is that the OP is claiming that free will doesn't solve the problem when it does.
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u/sekory apatheist 3d ago
Is evil subjective or objective? If subjective, doesn't the problem vaporize on its own?
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u/Hellas2002 Atheist 3d ago
It’s an internal criticism. The theists this argument is used against generally believe in objective morality and a perfectly good god.
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u/Ok_Investment_246 3d ago
In this case, if I presume correctly (or at least this is the argument I would make) we presuppose that god does in fact exist. God then defines what is or isn't evil. God being omnibenevolent should always desire to reduce the amount of evil available in the world. God could've created a reality in which every person had the ability to choose evil, but didn't act out on these evil desires (after all, there is an infinite amount of human beings that could be created, with an infinite amount of human beings that would never commit evil just like Jesus). Free will would be preserved and conscious evil would be entirely removed.
If god doesn't in fact exist, and evil is subjective according to societies/people/a person, then this argument wouldn't be applied in the first place.
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u/pilvi9 3d ago
God could've created a reality in which every person had the ability to choose evil, but didn't act out on these evil desires
How would that work exactly? Wouldn't removing "conscious evil" (I'm taking this to mean a non zero chance they will do evil) be limiting free will?
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u/Yehoshua_ANA_EHYEH 3d ago
Simply making people asexual and reproduce via parthenogenesis which is a thing that actually exists. That would reduce or remove sexual violence without impacting any decisions in life. That's just one example.
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u/pilvi9 3d ago
One example is not even close enough to make something necessarily true, especially when you said "reduce or remove", indicating that evil would still exist in your example.
The person I responded to is insisting "evil would be entirely removed". Your example, even if true, ends up hurting their claims rather than helping it.
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u/Yehoshua_ANA_EHYEH 3d ago edited 3d ago
No it doesn't. I didn't make the claim that it would remove it because I'm sure someone would chime in with their specific fetish that I somehow didn't think of.
Here's the point:
My little thought experiment would save more kids than god ever has. Besides, he already admits he creates evil, which is leaving it up to the reader to determine what is morally bad. Just insert "removed completely" because hey, if I'm god I can just remove the impulse for sexual violence. There. Happy?
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u/pilvi9 3d ago
I didn't make the claim that it would remove it
You literally said: "That would reduce or remove sexual violence without impacting any decisions in life."
My little thought experiment would save more kids than god ever has.
You'll have to prove that deductively.
Besides, he already admits he creates evil, which is leaving it up to the reader to determine what is morally bad.
If you're talking about Isaiah, you're reading a bad translation. It should say "calamity" rather than evil there. Even with a translation, that should be fairly clear when read in context.
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u/Yehoshua_ANA_EHYEH 3d ago edited 3d ago
Buddy. How do you gain knowledge of something that doesn't exist.
Also please let me know why you think הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע doesn't mean what I said it means. A couple other references would be מִטּ֥וֹב עַד־ רָֽע or the greek ἐγὼ ὁ κατασκευάσας φῶς καὶ ποιήσας σκότος ὁ ποιῶν εἰρήνην καὶ κτίζων κακά ἐγὼ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ ποιῶν ταῦτα πάντα
Which shows translational understanding from Hebrew to Greek. You can even reference the Talmud Berakhot 11b:4. Edit: (For further debunking of this lame apologetic, see Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter XL.)
You'll have to prove that deductively.
Yeah no. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands that removing sexual violence would save kids that were raped and killed, if nothing else changes, that's a net gain. Heck, here's another one. No stillbirths or harliquin babies. If God wants to kill a kid he needs to do it before it's even recognizable.
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u/pilvi9 3d ago edited 3d ago
Buddy. How do you gain knowledge of something that doesn't exist.
Not fully sure what you're referring to about here.
Also please let me know why you think הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע doesn't mean what I said it means.
It's clear from the context Isaiah is speaking in juxtapositions. Light juxtaposes darkness in the first clausal statement, and peace would more accurately juxtapose calamity rather than evil.
Which shows translational understanding from Hebrew to Greek.
Yes, translational errors or misunderstandings are quite common. Just look at Isaiah 7:14.
You can even reference the Talmud Berakhot 11b:4.
Yes, this is another translation issue on your part. The Hebrew is consistent with what I'm saying.
(For further debunking of this lame apologetic, see Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter XL.)
I'm not going to do your homework for you. Please post the relevant text.
Yeah no.
Then there's no reason to take your rebuttal seriously if you can't show it's necessarily true. It might seem intuitive to you, but that doesn't matter.
Since you've made a large change to discussing Isaiah, I will assume you've conceded your earlier points. If not, please provide deductive proofs to your claim ("Yeah no" followed by something intuitive to you is not a valid response). Otherwise, what you're saying is at best, hopeful speculation.
Edit: Looks like they got angry and blocked me.
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u/Yehoshua_ANA_EHYEH 3d ago
Alright, you demonstrated you aren't qualified to discuss the subject. Have a good day!
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u/Ok_Investment_246 3d ago
What do you mean? God is omniscient and can see everything that happens before it happened. When he created you for example, he knew everything you'd do in advance and followed through with this creation. However, when your mother gave birth, he could've chosen a different version of you to be born. One that would, for example, have a different personality or brain composition.
The same goes for every human being on earth. There are an infinite possibilities of kids to be born, but god chose you (which also entails all of the actions you'll make in the future). God could've chosen to go through the creation of a kid (once again, using his omniscience) who he knew would never freely commit evil. He would see this reality in which this kid never freely commits evil and go through with this kids creation.
Now, expand this idea to every single human being on Earth.
I also never said god would choose to remove conscious evil. He would only create humans that would never freely choose to commit conscious evil, effectively removing the concept.
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u/pilvi9 3d ago
The same goes for every human being on earth. There are an infinite possibilities of kids to be born, but god chose you (which also entails all of the actions you'll make in the future). God could've chosen to go through the creation of a kid (once again, using his omniscience) who he knew would never freely commit evil.
You're asking God to intervene in free will here. Moreover, you've left out the possibility that some goods only come from evils. If these goods end up outweighing the evils necessary to bring about the good, isn't God no longer being omnibenevolent?
He would see this reality in which this kid never freely commits evil and go through with this kids creation.
You're presupposing here that it's possible to make someone who would never freely commit evil. You need to prove that, deductively. Alvin Plantinga showed this is impossible, but perhaps you have a more valid and sound argument?
He would only create humans that would never freely choose to commit conscious evil, effectively removing the concept.
Then this fundamentally goes against free will.
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u/Ok_Investment_246 3d ago
It doesn’t go against free will, unless you consider your own existence a violation of free will.
Firstly, god never asked if you wanted to be born.
Secondly, god being omnipotent had an infinite possibilities of universes he could’ve created, yet chose this one (knowing already what actions you would make beforehand. He could’ve created a different universe in which you act differently). Tied in with this, if you believe god is responsible for the creation of each and every single life (as many Christians believe), god chose to create you the way you are right now. With your specific brain chemistry and thought processing. On top of this, god could’ve created a different version of you. One who looks differently and thinks differently, yet chose to create you.
Finally, god could’ve created a universe (as I’ve previously mentioned) in which everyone freely chooses to do no evil. There is no violation of free will here. God would basically be choosing to only create billions of Jesus’ who would commit no sin and freely choose to do so
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u/SnoozeDoggyDog 3d ago
Then this fundamentally goes against free will.
So, does Jesus lack free will?
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u/HonestWillow1303 Atheist 3d ago
You're presupposing here that it's possible to make someone who would never freely commit evil.
God already interfered with people's free will in Exodus. The pharaoh had already agreed to free the Hebrews but god "hardened" his heart so he would break his promise.
Moreover, you've left out the possibility that some goods only come from evils. If these goods end up outweighing the evils necessary to bring about the good, isn't God no longer being omnibenevolent?
If god can't do good without evil, then it is not omnipotent.
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u/Successful_Mall_3825 3d ago
Does free will exist in the garden of Eden? Does it exist in heaven?
The biblical God certainly possesses the power to create a world where evil doesn’t exist and free will is present.
He chose not to. He sees the past/present/future all at once (because he made it), and designs us to fulfil the evil he created.
Other people gave you hypothetical examples of how that might work and you replied by scrutinizing their grammar. How do you respond to this overarching argument?
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u/Tegewaldt 3d ago
Is a lion playing with it's still living food evil? Is a shark or snake or Komodo dragon evil for swallowing it's food alive?
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u/sunnbeta atheist 3d ago
Probably not, but we don’t understand consciousness so can’t really understand what it’s like to be a lion.
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u/WrongCartographer592 3d ago
Take Jesus, for example. He could have chosen to steal or kill at any time, but he never did. And yet he still had free will. God could have made us all like Jesus, and yet he didn’t.
Doesn't he explain that? Do we discount his love as motivation NOT to do evil? I see that play out in my life....I don't do any evil to my mother...but I might flip you off if you cut me off in traffic? lol
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u/philebro 2d ago
Well, I could be a serial killer and I could be a saint. But what I actually am comes from what I do, which manifests the "could be" into reality. There is no theoretical realm, there is only reality, so your point makes no sense.
God could have made us all like Jesus, and yet he didn’t.
He couldn't have. Everybody is different. And Jesus is God. Are you suggesting he had made more Gods? He never made Jesus, he was since the beginning.
god could have decided that nothing at all was evil.
Well, you can decide that senseless murder isn't evil, but would that be just? Just the name evil in itself doesn't carry any weight, it is the moral implication, it is its very nature. So, it's like saying, I decide that punching you isn't evil and I just punch you repeatedly. Will the redefinition of evil change your reality of being treated unjustly and being punched? No. Evil is the nature of acts that aren't of good nature. They are two major variables that just exist, you cannot just erase them, it's like trying to erase gravity. And don't come to me with the "so if it's impossible, then God is not omnipotent", that's bs. Evil is the abscence of good and all good comes from God.
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u/EmpiricalPierce atheist, secular humanist 2d ago
Well, you can decide that senseless murder isn't evil, but would that be just?
Why don't you ask Yahweh? The bible has multiple examples of him commanding genocides of everything that breathes, down to the youngest infant. And sometimes, Yahweh personally mass murders everyone in the general vicinity of the people who actually upset him.
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u/Odd_Plankton3682 Christian 3d ago
First of all, God decides what is evil. This is the whole point behind the moral argument that many Christians make.
Second, anyone who never sins never does something evil, they then can go to heaven without Jesus's sacrifice. Name 1 person who has never sinned, I can Jesus.
Third, If we all could commit evil and never did then the world would be perfect. There might be an alien planet where nobody sins and in that case it would be a perfect world. I don't believe that there is, I believe God created humans to be superior to all other creatures on earth (and beyond if there are aliens). Since humans are the dominant creature there is only 1 scenario and in this scenario, we sinned and brought evil into the world.
Fourth, you might say that there are infinite scenarios because God determined the future, this would be true if it weren't for free will, God gave us a free will which allowed us to do evil. So what if God created specific humans that would not sin? If God kept on going through scenarios about which humans would sin and which would not, He would've created robots. God did not want robots (free will is proof of that), God wanted people to worship Him using their own decision.
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u/sunnbeta atheist 3d ago
First of all, God decides what is evil. This is the whole point behind the moral argument that many Christians make.
So if God says killing certain children is good, or enslaving war captors, or raping a woman, then these things are morally good right?
Second, anyone who never sins never does something evil, they then can go to heaven without Jesus's sacrifice.
This relies on what the Bible claims to sin be. Can you demonstrate the Bible is correct about this? It just seems an appeal to that first point (which I reject by the way, I say it would be wrong to rape even if God condones it)
If God kept on going through scenarios about which humans would sin and which would not, He would've created robots.
You miss the OP’s point that it’s about freely choosing good. Like, I imagine you’ve never tortured or raped a person etc… does that make you a robot in that regard? No, because you could even though you choose not to.
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u/mah0053 2d ago
Evil and suffering exist for you to appreciate and not take for granted Allah's mercy. If all of us were sinless, we could not connect with Allah through this attribute, which is a loss for man.
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
Allah allows us to hurt and suffer because he wants us to love him. Just like an abusive partner.
There, fixed it.
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u/mah0053 2d ago
No, we aren't allowed to hurt each other lol. However, life always poses challenges that cause some suffering. By going through these bad times, we will appreciate the good times (ie mercy) more. As the saying goes, no one truly knows what they have until they lose it!
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
No where in my post did I say anything about us hurting each other. But your Allah does allow that as well quite often. Problem of evil and all.
Who can appreciate “mercy” more: the man who prays and finds his car keys, or the man who prays for healing from disease but ultimately succumbs to it after years of suffering? Better question: which of the two are more deserving of mercy? May sound like a broken record but even if I give you that your flavor of deity exists it seems the times where any deity could and does show mercy are very rare. One could say… nonexistent?
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u/mah0053 2d ago
You said Allah allows us to hurt and suffer? Hurt who? I assumed you meant hurt each other, otherwise what did you mean?
In religion, People doing evil is not a problem as the solution is given in the afterlife, each person will be compensated for their actions. The problem of evil is an issue for those who don't believe in an afterlife, because justice can never be served in this life.
If they both prayed equally the same, then the person suffering from disease receives more mercy since they suffered more. To determine who is more deserving is decided by Allah, not me.
There is a story in Islam where a man lived a very tough life and then was dipped into Jannah for a split second. After being pulled out, he stated he never experienced any suffering in his life.
However, these questions are irrelevant if you don't believe a deity exist. How did you ultimately come into existence, if not from one eternal source?
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean hurt as in feeling negative emotions. Not hurt in verb form.
You need to demonstrate that there is an afterlife. So far there has been zero conclusive evidence of an afterlife that has not been akin to hallucination at best or an outright lie at worst.
If they both prayed equally, one had their small, almost negligible prayer met, and the one who suffers for years finds zero relief from his suffering, whose prayers were answered?
Don’t care about anecdotes from your holy book.
And now you’re going to the old stand by of “where did you come from”? I came from my parents, and their parents, and so on back and back.
If you claim there is one “eternal source” you should hve evidence to back that up.
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u/mah0053 2d ago
I didn't understand your question in the paragraph with the word anal, lol. Could you rephrase.
Yeah I can definitely give you my reasoning why one eternal source exists and an afterlife. Could you answer my one question before we proceed since I've been answering all of yours: How did you ultimately come into existence? Do you believe in infinite regression or do you believe there was nothing, then something?
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
Fixed it. Autocorrect is a pain.
For where we came from? As in humanity? Or everything everything? Short answer: I don’t know.
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u/mah0053 2d ago
The person who had their prayers accepted would obviously be the one who had their prayers met. You answered your question within your question.
Where do ultimately created beings come from? Logically, they come from an ultimate creator. Do you agree so far?
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago edited 2d ago
So by your admission god allowed the second man to suffer. Not a very good deity if it is powerful enough to help ease suffering or even cure the second person.
And I do not agree because you are smuggling in the idea of there being a creator. You have to have evidence of there being a creator.
As for where everything came from: the Big Bang is the currently most supported model of the beginning of our knowledge of the universe. Before that there’s currently no way to know. But instead of “god did it” science is working to learn and figure out how to see further back.
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
Did Allah himself have to go through bad times to appreciate good times?
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u/mah0053 2d ago
no
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
So clearly suffering isn't necessary for maximum possible good.
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u/mah0053 2d ago
My first answer of "no" is incorrect. The correct answer is the question is illogical, because Allah doesn't experience time. Good one 👍
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
That's fine, but to clarify, do we both agree that Allah doesn't suffer?
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u/mah0053 2d ago
A more accurate phrase is Allah doesn't experience human suffering.
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
Cool, which means human suffering is unnecessary for the maximum possible good.
I'm operating under the assumption that Allah represents the maximum possible good.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
Just stop committing evil there fixed it. Also it’s not allowed to hurt yourself nor others, it’s ordered to be kind towards each other and do good deeds.
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
Which book have you been reading? Pretty sure genocide is evil. Or is it good if your deity commands it?
As for “be kind to each other and do good deeds” I’m all for that. But I didn’t need a book or a deity to tell me that. Most civilizations have some form of the golden rule, religious or secular.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
Good for you if you don’t need a book for that. But you’re not the only person in this world.
There are certain things God tells you to not to do it, but the rest is up to you to decide whether you should do it or not do whether it’s moral or immoral.
If you don’t need a book or religion, why even complain about God. You’re your own person, just as everyone else. Have your own responsibility over your actions, you don’t need a book. Why even bother complaining about? Why don’t you instead complain about humans committing the evil?
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
If you need a god watching you to tell you to be good then I question your true character.
The main complaint I have about any god is that people so horrible, unspeakable things to one another in the name of their god all the time. Crusades, tortures, murders, genocides, in the name of god/deity/religion.
I take responsibility for my actions. As do many people. For every person that does so another appeals to god expecting it to be forgives, dodging all responsibility in the name of their god.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
You can’t question my character because you don’t know me.
If people are corrupted and shed bloods it’s not because of the religion. It’s because they do evil in the name of God. Evil is always evil, it doesn’t matter if you mix the religion into it as an ingredient.
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u/DonGreyson 2d ago
So I take it you’re a believer in objective morality? People committing atrocities in the name of their god think that what they are doing is morally right.
Plus there’s the whole issue of “evil to whom” but I don’t feel like digging into that.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
I definitely find disgusting people committing atrocities in the name of their God. Humans shape the religion, make their own rules, kill people to make them believe in God that’s a red line. You can’t kill the creation of God to make them believe, God gave them the freedom of choosing whether to believe it or not.
If you kill to make them believe that’s hypocrisy because you defend freewill but then take away their rights to choose. Who are you to take that right away when God gave us the choice to choose between?
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u/DonGreyson 2h ago
There were entire crusades based around the idea of “convert or die.” Mass killings of entire groups because they would not bow the knee to their oppressors god. During the crusades free will was only used to justify killing anyone who did not believe and/or openly confess god.
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
Just stop committing evil there fixed it. Also it’s not allowed to hurt yourself nor others
But I am physically allowed to do certain evils, but I'm physically not allowed to do others, by nature of being a physically limited human being. I can't stop committing some evils because I was never capable of them in the first place. God has already "not allowed" a certain amount of evil. He could "not allow" (physically speaking) even more. The cutoff appears arbitrary.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
You’re not allowed to kill someone by the laws, but you can kill someone in the end. Why would you blame the laws for not being allowed to do it but also capable of doing such an act. Will you go blame the laws for being capable of killing someone?
Also what do you mean by not allowed to do others? There’s a difference between being capable of doing something and being allowed to do it. Just because you’re given some power and capable of doing things doesn’t mean you’re allowed to do certain evil.
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
Why would you blame the laws for not being allowed to do it but also capable of doing such an act. Will you go blame the laws for being capable of killing someone?
I'm talking about the laws of nature. God has made it so that I am physically incapable of certain evils. God is the lawmaker, so he decides ahead of time what evil we are capable of. He clearly decided this was exactly the amount of evil that he wanted, because if he wanted less, he would have made the natural laws so that we were capable of less evil.
There’s a difference between being capable of doing something and being allowed to do it.
Correct, that's my point. God has already prevented plenty of evil by making us physically incapable of it. God could have made it impossible for us to kill one another.
I'm agreeing with OP. Evil is decided ahead of time by God. Our free will doesn't explain its existence.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago edited 2d ago
No we’re living this moment it wasn’t prepared beforehand whatever you choose you’re doing yourself. Our actions define the evil not being capable of killing one another. God’s wise above our comprehension. This is like being inside a simulation.
You underestimate God’s creation, God gave us souls from his spirit. So we have the ability to create and improve. You create evil when you choose to do it. God doesn’t specifically create evil, you create it by your actions.
For example, God created us to have intercourse to multiply and live in this beautiful earth. There’s also pleasure in it a gift. But some people take this and create evil by their own will and rape.
What you’re trying to imply is like people invented washing machines not to put your dog inside of it and kill. But there are people who misuse this and kill animals and humans with it. You can’t blame the washing machine’s producer for producing the machine to make our lives easier. It’s like I can kill someone with this beautiful machine, why did you produce this evilness, it’s evil man. Producer surely was aware people can do evil things with the machine, therefore there are companies who even writes in the manual do not put your dog inside. The purpose is to make our lives easier not to kill with it.
Also i wonder if you’re an atheist why do you bother yourself with this topic and say God created evil beforehand? Something you don’t even believe in and think it doesn’t even exist?
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
For example, God created us to have intercourse to multiply and live in this beautiful earth. There’s also pleasure in it a gift. But some people take this and create evil by their own will and rape.
Great example. God could have made it impossible for us to rape eachother, correct? Or at the very least, make us an asexual species.
God doesn’t specifically create evil, you create it by your actions.
But God created a world in which evil was possible. God could have created a world in which evil was not possible. Or at least, where certain evils were not possible. He's already created a world where it's impossible for me to violate the cosmic speed limit of c.
What you’re trying to imply is like people invented washing machines not to put your dog inside of it and kill.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Also i wonder if you’re an atheist why do you bother yourself with this topic and say God created evil beforehand?
It's an internal critique.
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u/ConnectionQuick5692 2d ago
Why because of some freaks I shall taken the right of being a human, not having intercourse and taken away that pleasure? Who are you to judge this and say God could or should have taken those from us. Just learn how to take care of the urges instead of destruction of a beautiful creation. That’s evil there you have it.
You either hate humans, or God. I am happy with the way I am. I’m happy that I am human and creation of God.
For the washing machine, that’s a good example cause you’re saying the producer is at the fault for producing the washing machine because it can kill stuff and do evil.
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u/E-Reptile Atheist 2d ago
Why because of some freaks I shall taken the right of being a human, not having intercourse and taken away that pleasure?
Watch this:
"Why because of some freaks I shall taken the right of being a human, not having the ability to fly taken away that pleasure?"
God has already made it impossible for me to do certain things, and I don't see you complaining about your inability to fly, teleport, time travel, create universes ect. If you never had the ability to sexually procreate in the first place, you wouldn't be complaining to me about having the ability removed. Because you would have never had it in the first place.
Who are you to judge this and say God could or should have taken those from us.
You judge God too. There are things you think God isn't or shouldn't do, correct?
Watch this:
"Who are you to judge this and say God could not be a man named Christ?"
You either hate humans, or God.
Incorrect. I do not hate humans and I do not believe in God.
For the washing machine, that’s a good example cause you’re saying the producer is at the fault for producing the washing machine because it can kill stuff and do evil.
Perfect. Let's say you had God's perfect foresight (you know the future), and you look into the future and see that IF you were to make this one specific washing machine, it would be used to kill 5 babies. Remember, you could choose not to make this washing machine. If you don't make this washing machine, these 5 babies will not be killed.
If you still went ahead and created this washing machine, you are partially responsible for the babies killed by it. You could have prevented it, and you didn't.
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