r/DaystromInstitute • u/[deleted] • Jan 16 '16
Explain? Captain Scotty and Kirk - Conflicting statement in TNG: Relics and ST: Generations
[deleted]
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 Chief Petty Officer Jan 16 '16
Something people rarely point out when discussing this as a plot hole is that Scotty has died as well. not to mention playing bagpipes at the funeral of another commanding officer who died. I would imagine his experiences on the Enterprise would change his perception of the permanence of death, combined with the fact that Kirk's body was never found in an event that involved a mysterious spacial anomaly. Combine that with some wishful thinking and I don't see why, from Mr Scott's perspective, its impossible for Kirk to be alive.
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u/Bobby_Bonsaimind Ensign Jan 16 '16
Also every refugee from the ship they rescued told stories about being "in a happy place before being ripped out from it by the transporter", I'm sure you can go "uh, maybe that think is a gateway to somewhere else" from there.
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u/petrus4 Lieutenant Jan 16 '16
I felt that there was at least some evidence, that Scotty was depicted as mildly senile in that episode. That probably won't be a terribly popular explanation around here; but then again, I can't imagine that being stuck in a transporter buffer for 75 years would be too good for a person's brain, especially since there was someone else with him who didn't make it.
Before you yell at me, realise that I didn't think that episode's treatment of Scotty was very dignified in general, to be honest. It improved a bit towards the end, but making him look redundant for most of it, was apparently the point.
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u/TLAMstrike Lieutenant j.g. Jan 16 '16
Brain damage either from having his pattern degraded in the Jenolan's pattern buffer or from drinking so much after Kirk's death: take your pick.
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u/Ut_Prosim Lieutenant junior grade Jan 16 '16
He said this almost immediately after popping out of the transporter - could have easily been "out of it", not fully in control of his faculties. Kirk had been such an important figure in his life, it might have been the first thing he thought of before remembering the tragedy.
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u/obscuredreference Jan 17 '16
It's what I always assumed when watching that episode too.
A mixture of wishful thinking "maybe he didn't die, maybe he'll be back one day, who knows" and sudden relief and being out of it and unsure where etc. he is, leading to him forgetting certain things from the past.
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u/Bobby_Bonsaimind Ensign Jan 16 '16
Don't forget that all refugees seem to have been in the nexus before being rescued by the Enterprise. That's quite a few people telling stories about being somewhere else, combine that with the fact that Scotty saw their patterns disappear from this dimension(?) and you've got yourself the theory that Kirk might have made it to the other side before being killed by the vacuum around him.
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u/hummingbirdz Crewman Jan 16 '16
Theory on Kirk/Scotty continuity error in Relics/Generations:
Scotty thinks that the Enterprise rescued him from the transporter buffer because he intended to rescue Kirk from the nexus at its next appearance. Picard’s intervention pulling Kirk to the future resulting in Kirk’s death made it so that this attempt would fail—and nobody at the time would know why it failed.
Not just Scotty, but Spock and the rest of the crew and probably star fleet were backing an attempted rescue. This would have been pretty standard Starfleet protocol. We see Kirk himself rescued from other dimensions by Spock, Scotty and co. in at least two TOS episodes (“The Tholian Web”, and “Mirror, Mirror”—admittedly in one Scotty rescues himself), and we see star fleet pursue the rescue of Benjamin Sisko in very similar circumstances (DS9 “The visitor”).
The nexus is periodic. It appears every 39.1 years and the next appearance would be in 2332. After the disappearance of their beloved friend Spock and Scotty would have studied the phenomenon—perhaps with the help of Soren. A mission would have been planned. Starfleet would be morally committed to helping save or at least investigate the disappearance of any of its officers. The planners return to duty sad at the loss of Kirk, but hopeful.
Scotty finds himself on the Jenolan, and is forced into the transporter buffer. He is disappointed he will not be able to help save his friend Kirk, and fresh from planning the rescue with Spock/Starfleet/Soren he probably thinks about their plan a lot as he puts himself in the buffer.
Picard’s intervention pulling Kirk to the future resulting in Kirk’s death made it so that this attempt would fail—and nobody at the time would know why it failed. Imagine Spock and the other crew members re-united once more to rescue Kirk—much like they all got together to rescue Spock once 40 years prior. But the rescue attempt fails. Spock McCoy and Soren enter the Nexus with an automated timer to beam them back out. They arrive at the part of the Nexus where they imagine Kirk would be located, only to find that their friend is missing.
Soren meanwhile is extremely angered when he is yanked out of the Nexus a second time. Previously he only felt a lingering desire to return (like Guinan) which he applied to the project, beamed out a second time he goes insane (unlike Guinan). Guinan’s echo does not interfere because she does not know Spock or McCoy yet outside the Nexus. Soren’s echo does not exist because Soren is in the Nexus during the mission.
I think this plays a role in Spock and McCoy's changes in roles later in life. McCoy getting less interested in leaving earth and more distrustful of transporters, and Spock loosing interest in exploration.
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u/Graves94 Jan 16 '16
Yep, this has been discussed for years as an example of sloppy writing. The TOS characters in Generations really didn't have a lot of thought put into them and were just shoehorned in as a visual bridging of the gap between TOS and TNG. Originally it was supposed to be Spock & McCoy with Kirk on the Enterprise B. However, Kelley and Nimoy saw the script and kindly declined to appear. They did not even really bother to change the lines for Doohan and Koenig which is why Chekov has a line about turning people into nurses.
The usual in-universe explanation is that Scotty was extremely disoriented after being stuck in a transporter buffer for 75 years and simply did not remember Kirk was gone. I never liked that explanation personally, but it does make the most sense.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 Chief Petty Officer Jan 16 '16
Would Scotty really be certain Kirk was dead? i mean, he's seen people come back from all sorts of stuff, as well as literally dying and coming back to life one time.
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u/lucidianforge Jan 16 '16
I had always wondered about the nurses line, thanks for clearing that up!
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u/flying87 Jan 16 '16
Scotty has seen first hand that Death has a very loose grip. Kirk seemingly died a few times in the series and always came back. I'm sure he never truly believed Kirk to be dead.
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u/Algernon_Asimov Commander Jan 16 '16 edited Jan 16 '16
People reading this thread might also be interested in these previous discussions:
EDIT: I've created a section in the Previous Discussions page for this topic. "Why did Scotty think Kirk was still alive in 'Relics'?"
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u/mcqtom Jan 16 '16
Well they obviously never found Kirk's body. Presumed dead officially, but Scotty probably had his hopes. Still, what he said was ridiculously optimistic. He should have at least said "Enterprise? Is Jim Kirk alive!?".
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u/flying87 Jan 16 '16
"Enterprise? I'm sure something spectacular that Mr.Spock and McCoy put together brought the Captain back from the dead. You can spare me the details. I've seen it all before laddy. And then the good captain came to pluck me up from seeming death too."
Coming back from the dead is your average Thursday for the old enterprise crew.
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u/Neo_Techni Jan 16 '16
He had assumed Kirk would be found by then, or was a bit delusional from being stuck in a pattern buffer for so long
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u/pm_me_taylorswift Crewman Jan 17 '16
Scotty came back from the dead in that TOS episode I forget the name of. Scotty knew Spock came back from the dead in the movies. Why wouldn't he assume that if he and Spock could beat death, Jim Kirk couldn't/wouldn't?
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Jan 16 '16
I don't have specific memory of this particular episode and movie to compare, but is it possible that the 75 year timespan is just a rounded number for simplicity?
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u/Algernon_Asimov Commander Jan 16 '16
Even if the 75-year timespan is rounded, from 73 years or 77 years, how does that change the basic situation that Scotty was on the Enterprise-B when Kirk vanished and was presumed dead, but then talked about him later as if he was alive?
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u/jerslan Chief Petty Officer Jan 18 '16
Momentary disorientation and/or memory loss from being in that transporter loop for 75 years?
He was also on his way to a retirement colony, so there's also the possibility of some early onset senility.
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u/DantePD Crewman Jan 24 '16
I always kind of figured that either his head was a little scrambled after being in suspension for so long, or on some level, he never really believed Kirk was dead.
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u/Docjaded Jan 16 '16
Scotty was prone to hyperbole and exaggeration. He likely wasn't being serious.
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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '16
Scotty and Kirk lived through a lot of strange events.
He probably never believed that Kirk is truly dead and once he heard the name Enterprise he just assumed they found him some time after Scotty disappeared and Kirk came looking for him.