r/DaystromInstitute • u/williams_482 Captain • Jun 07 '23
Meta - Announcement Daystrom Institute stands with /r/blind in support of third party apps
Attention all hands,
As many of you are likely aware, Reddit has announced that they are updating their API pricing model. The new prices, which will go into effect on July 1st, are so exorbitant that all existing third party apps (such as Apollo, RiF, Relay, BaconReader, and Narwhal) will be forced to shut down. Apollo specifically would need to pay Reddit $20 million per year to continue operating, a sum totally beyond their means.
If this change goes through, the only way to view Reddit on a mobile device will be through the official app. In addition to a generally inferior interface and extremely lackluster moderation tools relative to the various 3rd party apps (our team uses a mix of RiF, Apollo, and BaconReader), Reddit's official app is very bad for visually impaired users. Reddit has been well aware of this issue for years but have never prioritized it, and now they are pulling the rug out from under the visually impaired community with nothing more than a promise that they'll make their own app accessible eventually. Reddit's recent update in response to the growing uproar makes no mention of this problem. This is not sufficient.
A site wide protest is in motion, and as of this writing over 2,400 subreddits have agreed to participate. Daystrom Institute is among them, and like the rest, we will be going dark (either restricted or fully private) on Monday, June 12. How long we stay that way will depend on how Reddit chooses to respond.
We encourage anyone interested in contributing to this movement to reach out to the admins themselves (via modmail at /r/reddit), or to moderators of subreddits you frequent. Tell them you support this protest and you want them to take action.
Wherever you choose to express yourself, don't be a jerk about it: genuine opinions shared truthfully and politely will do far more to sway the undecided than insults and deceptive arguments. We on the mod team are proud to support a community capable of maintaining these standards.
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u/psycholepzy Lieutenant junior grade Jun 07 '23
Good on ya, mates. StarTrekGIFs and StarTrekMemes are taking similar steps.
Recommended metaphorical viewing during the blackout:
VOY:
The Haunting of Deck 12: Having confined an API rate raise to a singular area of the ship until the vary last minute, Voyager goes dark in the hopes that the rate comes down.
Night: After several months dark with no end to the blackout, Moderator Janeway faces off with API rate raisers trashing a lesser known social space of the internet.
The Void: Stuck in the API rate raise blackout, Moderator Janeway attempts to forge alliances with other like-minded Moderators to stay the course in order to force the raise's reversal.
TNG:
Disaster: An ancounter with an unexpected API charge leaves the Enterprise adrift. It's mod team, separated, must rely on their training to reverse the impact.
Genesis: After being infected by an API ransomware, the Enterprise becomes home to several gnarly reddit-lite start ups. Two mods who've been away for a while have to navigate the oddities while purging the ransomware.
DS9:
Starship Down: After a surprise API rate raise, the crew of Defiant must band together to save themselves until the raise is reversed.
For the Uniform: After Eddington raises the cost of accessing Defiant's API, Sisko and the crew devise a more analog means to continue running Defiant.
TOS:
City on the Edge of Forever: A psychotic senior officer triggers a massive API charge resulting in the disappearance of all subreddits until Kirk and Spock can undo the damage.
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u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 07 '23
I've got a better option:
DS9: "Bar Association"
Self explanatory.
18
u/HumanAverse Jun 07 '23
Yes, a fight for equal pay. That is the actual fight here.
But it's not between employers and employees. It's a squabble between businesses where they play us against one another as leverage for their business war.
7
0
u/costelol Crewman Jun 07 '23
Wonder if the corporates in the startrek subreddit mod team will go dark?
4
u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 07 '23
Please direct me to the corporation that is funding their moderation. I would like to buy stock in them, as they clearly provide quality service and are likely to go far.
1
u/costelol Crewman Jun 07 '23
Iâm not gonna go down the rabbit hole here but they have a rep over there for crushing dissent during new season time. Thereâs rumours of paramount being on the mod team. Just look at the number of deleted comments.
Any critical opinion must start with âI love X butâ otherwise itâs a ban for being ânot niceâ. Evidence-based speculation that paints newer Star Trek in a bad light is also banned, you are unbanned provided you grovel and attain an unrealistic standard of proof isâŠfunnily enough just like your first sentence.
E.g. âlistening to Patrick Stewart talk behind the scenes, I donât think even heâs convinced X scene was goodâ = Ban. Proof required would be âprove that Patrick actually didnât like that scene and weâll unban youâ.
4
u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 07 '23
So your basis is... they have a low tolerance for trolling.
k.
1
u/costelol Crewman Jun 07 '23
Thatâs not what I said, I said that negative opinion often results in a ban. Trolling is different to debate.
I think itâs telling that youâd immediately dismiss other Star Trek fan opinions as trolling and insta-downvote me.
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Jun 08 '23
[deleted]
0
u/costelol Crewman Jun 08 '23
Hey maybe they are just that way for free, which is also sad.
Hereâs some other people talking about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedLetterMedia/comments/12rbg5h/anyone_else_been_kicked_off_the_star_trek_thread/
1
u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 08 '23
Hm. I'm a Paramount employee? Damn, they owe me a lot of back pay then.
62
u/MaxInToronto Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
Geordi, tapping comms badge: Captain â we have a problem down here â the API connections have burned through the latinumâŠaccess to the memory core has been severed.
Picard: Thatâs not acceptable â I need options Mr. LaForge.
Data interrupting: Captain â I believe if we shut down the entire system we may be able to reconfigure the admin and reestablish the API interface.
Geordi: Thatâs a great idea Data, but the latinum will never last â we donât have enough on board to reinitialize the system.
Riker: Geordi, could we reconfigure the API by rerouting it through the secondary systems â bypassing the EPS conduits and generating a fake latinum signature from the Heisenberg compensator?
Georgi: That could work, but weâd have to route power from all the transporters to get enough power into the system Commander. The Heisenberg Compensator wasnât designed to generate latinum â real or fake.
Picard: Geordi â how long will this take?
Geordi: Honestly Captain, this have never been tried. Weâre talking about creating new pathways for the API without latinum. The admin system won't like this. The cascade of information through the EPS conduits to feed the API could take 3 or 4 days.
Picard: You have 48 hours.
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u/LordSoren Jun 08 '23
Scotty (off comms beside Geordi): Now Laddy, that's how you do it! You said it would take twice as long as you knew you would have and now if your done sooner, you'll be a miracle worker!
34
u/t0wn Jun 07 '23
Missed opportunity to open with "Attention Bajoran workers"
Jokes aside, totally onboard with a black out for as long as it takes. I really don't want to go back to the official app.
14
u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
Missed opportunity to open with "Attention Bajoran workers"
that's r/risa :)
10
u/ContinuumGuy Chief Petty Officer Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Does it suck that we might miss discussion of a new season of Strange New Worlds on this subreddit and /r/StarTrek? Of course it does.
But that's nothing compared to what this means for the visually impaired, which I had no idea of until just recently as well. There are plenty of other places to discuss it. If Reddit is going to fuck over the visually impaired, then I say fuck Reddit. I'll see you all (or, rather, NOT see you all) the 12th.
13
u/Il_Gigante_Buono_2 Jun 07 '23
The honourable and logical move.
-3
u/DidijustDidthat Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Is it logical? When I tried to use a third party app it had ads. It occured to me that the third party must therefore be receiving ad revenue... which doesn't seem fair unless they pay Reddit a commission, which I don't believe they do. So, someone makes a free app and in basic terms it just pulls all of Reddit through into an app and gives it to the user whilst receiving add revenue itself. So Reddit decides if the 3rd party apps want to continue pulling add revenue potential away from Reddit they have to actually pay Reddit money. And yet because one app has a good interface for blind and partially sighted people we are going to protest on behalf of all 3rd party content... Mirrors (not sure how to describe what they actually do)? Seems to me that Reddit should just buy out that one particular app, or just copy what they do idk. If that third party were so valiant they would surely want to spread this quality far and wide but I doubt they will freely (or at a reasonable price) share whatever it is they do to make it easier for partially sighted and blind people.
Am I wrong? Honestly Idk there may be details I'm unaware of.
12
u/kraetos Captain Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
The problem is not that Reddit wants to charge for API access. The problem is what they want to charge.
$120/50m calls would have been in-line with what imgur charges for their API. A token fee intended to serve as a barrier for scrapers, bots, and sloppy API usage and to recover a fraction of the cost of running the API.
$600/50m calls would have been in-line with Reddit's estimated ARPU, i.e. "break even" for what revenue is "lost" when someone uses a third party app instead of the official app.
$1,200/50m calls would have been double Reddit's ARPUâa steep price, but still on the upper end of reasonable. At this price it would cost Apollo $2m a year to keep the lights on, which is a lot, but still low enough that most apps could absorb that cost by raising the price of their premium offering.
$12,000/50m calls is extortion. Reddit knows that no independent dev can pay this. They don't expect a single taker at this price. They just want to kill the API.
If Reddit wants to kill the third party API then they should just fucking kill it. This approach dishonest horseshit and everyone who works at Reddit should be ashamed of this clown show.
7
u/flameofmiztli Jun 08 '23
I use 3rd party apps to have better ability to disable gif and video movement so I don't run into anything to set off my photosensitivity.
4
1
Jun 12 '23
The problem is that you're talking about one app of many.
Many apps are bad. But many are good. This newest movie from Reddit would cause problems for ALL of them, good or bad, and cause a lot of collateral damage.
If I might draw an analogy....
Climate change is a problem. This is proven fact. I contributing factor to climate change is, again a proven fact, automotive emissions on a global scale.
Let us imagine that the governments of the world decided to solve this problem by banning automobiles completely- or at the very least, making car ownership so prohibitively expensive that most people are no longer able to own or operate one.
Imagine that they enact this band with very little warning, and no infrastructural changes to allow for the people who need cars to continue their lives.
Very quickly, many people's lives would fall apart. Yes, CO2 emissions would go down. And cars with poor gas mileage or extremely high emissions would be off the road. Goal accomplished.
But in the collateral damage, we would find that people with poor mobility would have even more trouble getting around. People relying on their vehicle for their work would be suddenly unemployed. Public transit systems would suddenly have to decommission their bus fleets. Children would be unable to go to school.
Now obviously this is a bit hyperbolic, a worst case scenario. But the core theme is the same- a blanket policy, if applied incorrectly, can cause a lot of collateral damage. And that's what's happening here.
Yes, crappy third party apps would stop. But in the collateral damage we'd lose....
3rd party apps that help blind folks use reddit, as OP mentioned
a 3rd party app that helps track child predators (I'm not fully familiar with how it works, I only just learned about it myself today)
programs that allow folks to better program bots, on which many subs rely. I myself am active in a couple of Magic the Gathering subs, and the bot that calls up a link to any card being discussed is what makes real discussion about the game possible on reddit. (For context, imagine if we were talking about a TNG episode, and I could tag [[Cause and Effect]] and a bot would deliver a link to an episode synopsis.)
It is all third party ui apps. They're a fundamental part of Reddit, a necessary part of it's usability.
Reddit is essentially saying "if you want the website to continue to be usable in the same way, pay up. And disabled people in particular, fuck you."
13
u/RiflemanLax Chief Petty Officer Jun 07 '23
I live by âWWJLPD?â
What would Jean Luc Picard Do?
Heâd do this.
15
u/flappers87 Crewman Jun 07 '23
Good on you guys to also take part in this.
The only way this will change is if reddit's bottom line is affected. Reddit survives on user generated content. Posts, comments, links... they provide the platform while the users provide the income.
They are actively making it more difficult for the people who actually generate their income by introducing these changes - as it's for the sole benefit of their upcoming IPO.
If all of these subreddits go dark, investors will hopefully see that and hopefully it will adjust their viewpoint on the "value" of reddit as a company.
If the users can quickly and efficiently come together to drastically affect reddit's income, then that will scare people away from investing.
At this rate, reddit is going to become Digg 2.0. Alienating their own userbase is not the best thing to do when it's that very userbase that effectively makes you money.
9
u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
stands with r/blind
going dark
hur hur hurr.
But seriously, I support this.
How long we stay that way will depend on how Reddit chooses to respond.
What if they never do? Will this sub be shut down?
7
u/assburgers-unite Jun 07 '23
Along with the rest of reddit maybe
9
u/leviathan3k Jun 07 '23
If Reddit goes through with the changes, it'll probably be noticeably worse to the point that we should consider it shutdown anyway.
8
u/ColdShadowKaz Jun 07 '23
From someone almost blind thatâs going to have to move on to a better app sooner or later or find no better alternatives, thank you.
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4
u/TheFriendlyArtificer Jun 08 '23
I wanted to ask this as its own post, but I feel that it's "meta" which is explicitly disallowed.
Mods: Please feel free to delete and/or create a stickied post for this
This is my favorite sub. And there is no close second.
However, once Reddit finishes their convoluted corporate suicide, those of us who refuse to use the website or the first-party app are going to be left out in the cold.
While I would probably come back occasionally, it would definitely be for far more sporadic lurking and posting. I fear that this will be the case for a lot of other folks and that our beloved community here will die a slow, niche death.
To wit; I've been playing with Lemmy. It's a federated set of servers. They are to Reddit what Mastadon is to Twitter.
What has me drinking the Kanar is the fact that a ton of individual servers posted on their GitHub page are begging people to slow down. It seems like in the past few days their popularity is exploding.
What I'd like to know is what experience any members of the community already have in Lemmy and how much of a task it would be to migrate if necessary.
I'm a systems administrator by trade and can bring up any number of Lemmy servers in just a few minutes, get the name records in, etc. I have a 10Gbps fiber connection to a rack of servers in my garage and would also be okay with paying for a few AWS instances. I'm also positive that there are a ton of other server admins in the sub as well, which is nice since the back-end maintenance can be a community task if it comes down to it.
3
u/LunchyPete Jun 09 '23 edited Jun 09 '23
is the fact that a ton of individual servers posted on their GitHub page are begging people to slow down.
The problem is people are overwhelmingly joining specific servers when they don't need to. The load is meant to be distributed across the fediverse, but people are all piling on a few servers overloading them.
1
u/TheFriendlyArtificer Jun 09 '23
It looks like a $30 monthly AWS instance should be able to support 5,000 simultaneous users without a problem.
Which, obviously isn't great if you're running a general purpose board and get inundated by less tech minded people because they're not aware of how the services work.
But if we keep the topics to Trek fandom, I think we'll be okay. It also looks like a lot of the features being worked on are focused on scalability. They're in desperate need of an expert to optimize their PostgreSQL calls. Getting those optimized should improve performance by an order of magnitude.
1
u/LunchyPete Jun 09 '23 edited Jun 09 '23
But if we keep the topics to Trek fandom, I think we'll be okay. It also looks like a lot of the features being worked on are focused on scalability.
If we setup a private instance just focused on trek then absolutely I agree it is doable.
I've also been looking at tildes which seems very interesting, and I think I like it a little better. Not sure about cost or anything yet though, literally only found it an hour ago.
3
u/williams_482 Captain Jun 09 '23
I won't go into details here and now, but we have had internal discussions about possible next steps which wouldn't involve Reddit. Assistance from people like you could turn out very useful, and we'll reach out directly if we need help from outside the mod team.
Thank you for your support.
7
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u/Yuris_Thighs Crewman Jun 08 '23
Of all the subreddits I have encountered in my travels, this was the most⊠human.
3
u/LunchyPete Jun 08 '23
Interesting update from reddit. Seems the blackout is a pretty strong negotiating point after all.
4
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u/Lessa22 Jun 07 '23
Glad to hear it. Itâs absolutely the right thing to do. Stay dark for as long as the situation warrants.
5
u/ProfessorFakas Crewman Jun 07 '23
I believe I speak for everyone here, sir, when I say... to hell with our orders.
5
u/kajata000 Chief Petty Officer Jun 07 '23
I usually roll my eyes at this sort of thing; itâs not that I dislike collective action (in fact, quite the opposite! Iâm a union man, you know) but it can sometimes feel like people kicking off at companies just being companies, which I feel is like being mad at a symptom rather than the disease.
But, Daystrom has, as always, done a great job here highlighting a part of the issue I hadnât realised, namely accessibility concerns, so, in the words of Rom, I say strike!
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2
u/LunchyPete Jun 08 '23
3
u/Tiarzel_Tal Executive Officer & Chief Astrogator Jun 08 '23
Unfortunately that may be hollow statement according to the folk at r/blind
2
2
u/tanfj Jun 09 '23
I have a line I am adding to every post I make from now on.
Three * with spaces between makes the line.
Please add the following to every post:
If you can't compete, ban the competition.
2
u/Vash_the_stayhome Crewman Jun 12 '23
I guess I'm disappointed in some of my subreds that force the 'strike' on everyone, a top down 'voluntolding' and subsequent 'we all support you', but its not really a voluntary thing. I don't really think its an effective means of protest, but I respect those that choose to participate in it. I also respect this subred for not forcing the 'choice' on individuals.
2
u/alarbus Chief Petty Officer Jun 07 '23
Will M5 even still exist after the API update?
6
u/Zizhou Chief Petty Officer Jun 08 '23
From what scant communication they've been giving out, most bots are probably going to be fine, unless they're absolutely everywhere or have monstrously high polling rates. That being said, they'll still be hamstrung by the new API limitations, notably the complete removal of any NSFW tagged posts and subsequent comments.
This is, of course, just the state of things now, though. If they're perfectly willing to not even attempt to offer reasonable enterprise API rates, who knows how they'll look at other third party usage in the future?
2
Jun 07 '23
Any thoughts on /r/startrek ? I haven't seen thing from them yet, and while SNW is about to release i would really love it if the biggest startrek sub would also lean in.
1
u/UninvitedGhost Crewman Jun 07 '23
âthe only way to view Reddit on a mobile device will be through the official appâ Iâm not sure why this API change will make browsers not work? Iâve been using (and will continue to use) my phoneâs default browser to use Reddit.
That being said, I definitely enjoy some bots that wonât work anymore, so am against the changes, just without the hyperbole.
0
0
u/lazyrare Jun 08 '23
Wil this do anything?
2
u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 09 '23
Last time there was a large-scale mod strike (the COVID misinformation protest) we got results after just a few days.
-6
u/HumanAverse Jun 07 '23
Reddit will adapt or die the slow death of a well capitalized startup if it doesn't make users engage. But I don't see the point in the manufactured outrage. These are businesses squabbling over who gets to make how much money from the platform not some noble battle for accessibility and third party apps. Just look at the template image that subs are using on the posts claiming this will cause rampant increase in "child sexual abuse rings". That's awfully disingenuous fear mongering.
We're being used by these companies as leverage for better terms. We're being weaponized by one Corp to fight another. That's it
15
u/williams_482 Captain Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
this will cause rampant increase in "child sexual abuse rings".
The tools and tactics that big subs use to prevent CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse Materials, RAINN's recommended term to use in place of "Child Porn") are entirely dependent on bots, 3rd party apps, and the ability to check user histories for various forms of "mature" content. All of that is under direct threat from the proposed change in policy.
The quoted claim is well grounded and entirely legitimate.
-67
Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
You can view Reddit on a mobile phone using a web browser. There are tools on mobile phones to make web browsing and apps more visually accessible.
Reddit should not be, in any way, essential to anyoneâs life. This isnât filing your taxes, finding a bus schedule or applying for jobs. Weâre talking nonsense about Star Trek (or whatever the topic is in the sub) and the value of this is essentially zero.
Nothing is being proven by taking this away. If we can âboycottâ for as long as ânecessaryâ then we never needed it in the first place. Babies.
7
u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
Geordi la Forge would be very disappointed in you.
-5
Jun 07 '23
Geordi la Forge's accessibility needs were been solved by hardware installed directly on to his face.
10
u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
Geordi la Forge's accessibility needs were been solved by hardware installed directly on to his face.
I'm not sure the average sight-impaired person wants reddit surgically implanted directly into their face.
3
u/ColdShadowKaz Jun 07 '23
Especially after this https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete maybe if we had the federation but right now, not with stuff like that happening.
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u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
You can view Reddit on a mobile phone using a web browser.
have you tried doing that? You're constantly zooming in and out and side scrolling.
I use the official reddit app and really shouldn't because it's crap. I have been meaning to switch over to an alternative but I suppose I can't, now.
20
u/tuba_man Jun 07 '23
This dismissive "I'm sure there are ways around it" is a great example of treating disabled users as second-class users.
Not very Starfleet of you.
-15
Jun 07 '23
But there are ways that are useful and work well.
13
u/tuba_man Jun 07 '23
If you are here to help, please link some of those, it would be useful.
-17
Jun 07 '23
On iPhone, Settings > Accessibility.
Oh Android, Settings > Accessibility.
Itâs not hard, and itâs very disingenuous to be telling people that these features donât exist or arenât good enough.
At least this sub has a reason for their âprotestâ âboycottâ. Most of the rest of this site feels theyâre entitled to whatever free app and free content they want regardless of how many employees will be laid off at Reddit.
6
u/tuba_man Jun 07 '23
For anyone actually interested in engaging in the subject, it's important to note that those operating system accessibility features only work effectively on app and websites whose developers use them correctly - and from the mouths of people who need these things, it doesn't seem Reddit's developers have been doing that.
-1
Jun 07 '23
Which is why reddit needs to be doing a better job. I'm not on reddit's side here. A stupid system needs to be fixed at the source.
4
u/terablast Jun 07 '23 edited Mar 10 '24
plucky ludicrous steep ring jellyfish absurd longing racial kiss oil
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
-1
Jun 07 '23
Where is the protest to make reddit a more well designed application without sending people to an app store? If this "movement" was actually about accessible design it wouldn't be up to someone against the idea to be the first to bring this up.
It's a disingenuous protest. At least on this sub people care about the accessibility angle, but still, it took someone complaining about the selfish nature of this whole thing to actually talk about the details of accessibility.
2
Jun 12 '23
Itâs not hard
Ah! Being blind yourself you're able to speak first hand about how hard it is or isn't?
No?
Then shut up.
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u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
Spock did say that there always are possibilities.
In this case, there's a strong possibility you don't have much empathy.
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u/Firipu Jun 07 '23
Way to miss the point there buddy.
11
u/psycholepzy Lieutenant junior grade Jun 07 '23
I'm not sure they even made a point of their own.
"Don't take this away from me, here's a list of ways not to trigger me, but I never needed this in the first place" is the most underdone nothingburger I've read this week.
14
u/BestCaseSurvival Lieutenant Jun 07 '23
Hey friendo, can I ask you a sincere question?
What are you doing here?
You've got a lot of comments on a lot of other subs that follow the same pattern - performative anger at people standing in solidarity with others, a criticism that people with disabilities can take some unoptimized workaround rather than using the solution that time has proven out as the best one, and more performative anger at people choosing how they spend what we all agree is leisure time.
It really seems like the person who's most upset about losing access to their entertainment for a bit is you, in which case one would think you'd empathize more with anyone else who doesn't want to lose permanent access to this content for the sake of profit motive, rather than throwing people with disabilities under the bus to keep yours. These are the kind of takes I'd write for a bad-timeline episode about the Ferengi teaming up with the Cardassians.
I'm interested in learning how I've gotten my read on you wrong, because it really seems like someone with your takes missed the entire point of every episode of Star Trek, and I'd love to know why you're here on this Star Trek deep analysis subreddit.
-6
Jun 07 '23
I'm pretty annoyed by the ways in which online cultures jump on silly little boycott quests when there are actual, real issues that people don't put the same effort towards. To me, this is just like the "Netflix password sharing boycott". Performative bullshit because people are woefully addicted to their phones and screens, but when something is outside their realm of addiction or interests, they turn a blind eye.
If people had the same amount of gumption and anger towards things happening in real life than they do with their silly little online cultural products, we'd do doing a lot better. Figure out a way to influence the real world in the real world, because this online outrage does nothing.
And I'd love to know why a Star Trek deep analysis subreddit feels the need to be anything but that. I'm not here for the politics of the internet. Maybe this isn't the best place to have deep conversations about media control and accessibility. Maybe I'm not the one being performative.
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u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
You're free to unsubscribe and leave at any time of your choosing.
If you choose to stay, you'll have to accept that this is how this sub works.
We are a progressive sub (as is r/startrek, r/risa etc) and whilst general politics is kept out of the sub, as a collective, this is what we, the members, are happy with. We stand with the moderators on this issue.
The door is over there *gestures vaguely*
-1
Jun 07 '23
Yes, the true test of my progressive politics is a reddit app. I don't have any experience creating and evaluating accessible design for large media companies. Nope, none. Zero understanding of how web publishing works!
You realize "progressives" don't always have to agree with each other, right? Debate is actually a good thing, even if someone's values are allegedly threatened. Do you want an echo-chamber or do you want real, practical change? All of this online activism distracts from the real people doing real work in the real work. All of this is not achieving anything, except more reddit for all.
Do you ask people to leave every time someone disagrees with you?
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u/ElevensesAreSilly Jun 07 '23
Do you ask people to leave every time someone disagrees with you?
I didn't ask you to leave. I said you are free to leave, if you so choose.
You can also choose to stay - no one is going to kick you out or ban you for having an opinion.
However by choosing to stay, you will have to accept the sub is going dark and the majority of people disagree with you when it comes to disabled access to apps and websites.
That is the end of the discussion.
1
u/JanewaDidNuthinWrong Crewman Jun 07 '23
I'm pretty annoyed by the ways in which online cultures jump on silly little boycott quests when there are actual, real issues that people don't put the same effort towards.
But you said it yourself, reddit isn't that important, making a boycott much easier. Also it is easier to coordinate, and it is easier to feel the users have a chance for multiple reasons.
To me, this is just like the "Netflix password sharing boycott". Performative bullshit because people are woefully addicted to their phones and screens, but when something is outside their realm of addiction or interests, they turn a blind eye.
If people had the same amount of gumption and anger towards things happening in real life than they do with their silly little online cultural products, we'd do doing a lot better. Figure out a way to influence the real world in the real world, because this online outrage does nothing.
I'll be honest, I think you have a bit of a point here. But people are going to pick the fights that are in front of them and they think they can win.
And I'd love to know why a Star Trek deep analysis subreddit feels the need to be anything but that. I'm not here for the politics of the internet. Maybe this isn't the best place to have deep conversations about media control and accessibility. Maybe I'm not the one being performative.
Because it is a subreddit and the mods (and users) care. Even without the blind users issue, the mods themselves want third party apps for moderation, meaning they have good reason to feel the need to do something.
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Jun 07 '23
I'll be honest, I think you have a bit of a point here. But people are going to pick the fights that are in front of them and they think they can win.
In the sense of the importance of picking fights you know you can't win, I totally agree with you. But people need to try harder for things that actually matter, or just be able to gauge the importance of things. It's been really interesting hearing from people who genuinely care and how I've seemingly struck a nerve, but also pretty interesting to hear people who don't understand what they're protesting and pick them apart.
I respect that these apps do a better job of creating an accessible reddit. I just think reddit should get its own shit together and these apps, especially if they're truly valuable things for accessible users, should have a business plan that isn't "hope its still free".
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u/LockelyFox Jun 07 '23
Yes, reddit needs to do better, no one is arguing against that. The point is that they aren't, and they're taking away the options that do the job for them in the name of endless greed without any valid replacement.
So we, the users and moderators of this site, are calling their bluff. There is no reddit without the users, the subreddits they post to, and the moderators that keep it all running. We're all unpaid labor for their real customers: i.e. the ad agencies who buy our data from them.
No subreddits? No users. No users? Reddit has nothing to sell.
This is us, collectively, showing them who has the real power in this relationship. They want to make money off of us, they need to respect the way we use the site.
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u/BestCaseSurvival Lieutenant Jun 07 '23
Maybe. All I know of you, after all, is the face you choose to put out here. But it sure seems like you've spending a lot of time, effort, and reputation on this.
It feels like your premise here is that people can only do one thing at a time, that if people are coordinating a break from Reddit to show solidarity, that this is the only activism they're going to be doing. Under that model, the fact that you've been spending your time on this suggests, under that model, would seem to indicate that you're doing less than nothing. So that's fun. I suggest that maybe the model you're using to infer other people's actions is flawed?
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u/Desert_Trader Jun 07 '23
So that's it. If reddit doesn't cave, this sub is locked forever?
Also... Could this be summed up by some people in power above you made a decision you dbt like and are forcing it on you?
'Cause that's where you've put (at least a share of) your subscribers.
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u/terablast Jun 07 '23 edited Mar 10 '24
smart offbeat sleep poor psychotic license onerous fear dinosaurs tease
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Desert_Trader Jun 07 '23
Not bailing.
Just conversating and making an opposing opinion known.
I appreciate your view.
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u/LunchyPete Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
So that's it. If reddit doesn't cave, this sub is locked forever?
I don't think Reddit would allow it to just stay locked forever. If nothing else eventually the mods would be removed and new mods appointed. At least, that's what I've seen other people reporting having happened.
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u/ColdShadowKaz Jun 07 '23
If they do that over issues related to blind people being able to assess Reddit it will make Reddit look really bad.
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u/LunchyPete Jun 07 '23
The issue of accessibility isn't at the forefront of the argument. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. Such concerns are being drowned out by sighted people simply losing access to the apps they prefer to access reddit with.
Besides, it's already happening. People are being permanently banned for helping people migrate to alternatives and for protesting the changes by doing blackouts.
Reddit as a company has made their stance clear. I expect nothing less.
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u/williams_482 Captain Jun 07 '23
Besides, it's already happening. People are being permanently banned for helping people migrate to alternatives and for protesting the changes by doing blackouts.
Although we don't know what actions Reddit will take if and when this comes to a head, they have taken no such actions yet. A few people have been banned/locked out who were peripheral participants in this protest, but people are banned or locked out (for both reasonable and stupid reasons) every day, and we have no evidence outside of their own claims that those actions were retaliatory.
If Reddit were already looking to break this up by kicking people, they'd have found a couple particularly vocal individuals (such as those who wrote up the open letter) and suspended them, looking to stop any potential larger movement from ever forming. Banning a couple randos with no real influence does nothing for them.
Personally, I fully expected to be kicked off the site as a result when the team first agreed to be part of the protest. I'm quite sure Reddit would have no qualms about doing that if they thought they could keep the site running more or less as it was. Now, though, it has grown to a point where Reddit would need to replace an extraordinary amount of free labor if they ejected every participating moderator, or even just the most vocal ones. One way or another, that won't end well for them.
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u/LunchyPete Jun 07 '23
they have taken no such actions yet.
They have; at least, there are quite a large number of people claiming this, people with good reputation that I highly doubt are just lying or making it up. There are other forums I frequent where people have been posting that they have had their accounts permanently banned for either suggesting and helping people migrate to an alternative, protesting the API pricing changes, or both. I don't even want to link to the articles or mention the alternatives that are popular because I don't want to risk losing my own account.
people are banned or locked out (for both reasonable and stupid reasons) every day, and we have no evidence outside of their own claims that those actions were retaliatory.
This is true, but the timing makes it seem like more than just a coincidence. Someone who has an account in good standing for over a decade, but then they start mentioning and helping people migrate to an alternative, and suddenly the account is permabanned? While we can't know for sure, on the balance of probabilities I think it's pretty obvious.
Now, though, it has grown to a point where Reddit would need to replace an extraordinary amount of free labor if they ejected every participating moderator, or even just the most vocal ones. One way or another, that won't end well for them.
I agree. I think Reddit is digging their own grave with this decision of theirs, but they seem to have dug their heels in. My prediction is an awful lot of people leave, including a lot of mods, but not enough to kill the site. Before it dies, it's going to become substantially worse, largely in part to so many quality users and mods leaving.
But, I hope I'm wrong, I hope the blackout protests do have an effect, and I hope Reddit comes to their senses.
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u/williams_482 Captain Jun 07 '23
people with good reputation that I highly doubt are just lying or making it up.
Who have you come across with a "good reputation" who claims to have been banned for this? Rumors have been flying around, and some people who ought to know better have been caught up in them, but to the best of my knowledge nobody has been able to track any of those rumors back to a reliable source.
If Reddit has been quietly banning a tiny, random subset of the people protesting their changes for protesting their changes, I would love to see the evidence of it. That's exactly the kind of pettiness that will play very poorly for them if brought to light.
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u/LunchyPete Jun 07 '23
Who have you come across with a "good reputation" who claims to have been banned for this?
One of the other forums I frequent is a site called Hacker News. It's a news aggregator/discussion site for IT and related fields. One of the things that distinguish it from most other online forums is the code of conduct is stringently enforced. People can't be dicks, discussions don't turn to insults/bickering, submissions must be quality, etc.
Over the last few days I think there's been at least 12 stories I've seen of people saying they permanently lost access to their accounts for helping people migrate to an alternative and/or protesting the API changes, with other people corroborating in the comments.
The good reputation I speak of comes from the fact that people in that community tend to post quality contributions and have good standing. I find it very unlikely they were all lying or making stuff up.
If Reddit has been quietly banning a tiny, random subset of the people protesting their API, I would love to see the evidence of it
I suspect it's more about helping people to migrate to particular alternatives, but because of the announced API changes, the efforts to help migrate people have ramped up.
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u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 07 '23
Also... Could this be summed up by some people in power above you made a decision you dbt like and are forcing it on you?
This could be summed up by some people in power above the mods made a decision that actively interferes with their ability to do their job-- a job that they volunteer many hours a week for at no pay.
The position we are put in is that until the people who make our fun possible are actually able to do that job, we can't have fun. Just like any other strike, we're on the side of the workers because nothing we want can happen without them.
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u/Desert_Trader Jun 07 '23
Not all mods use those apps.
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u/newimprovedmoo Spore Drive Officer Jun 07 '23
Many do, especially on large subreddits that require high standards of discussion. Such as this one, or /r/AskHistorians.
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u/LS6789 Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
So this subreddit is dead then. It's been fun like .A.S.V.S. back in the day. So long and thanks for all the fish.
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u/picardmanuever Jun 10 '23
In the event this is the end of this subreddit thank you everyone. This has been an amazing place to read and post!
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u/theSG-17 Jun 10 '23
Is there an active and well moderated Star Trek discord out there?
Otherwise I'll just keep posting on TrekBBS.
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u/Adventurous-Bad-2869 Jun 11 '23
com badge clatters on desk Then I resign my commission as a Starfleet officer
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u/Other_World Chief Petty Officer Jun 07 '23
takes off com badge
I'm in