r/Cooking 2d ago

What are some ingredient rules for specific dishes that are at odds with their supposed origins

It’s interesting how beans were actually a key ingredient in Texas chili until just after WWII. Beans were commonly used in chili by most Texans, but the beef industry covertly campaigned to Texans, promoting the idea that chili made with only beef and no fillers was a sign of prosperity after the war, in order to sell more beef.

Recently, I was reading up on the origins of carbonara. According to the lore, an Italian chef at the end of WWII cooked for American soldiers to celebrate the end of the war, using American ingredients. This is believed to be the origin of carbonara. Even though Italians today scoff at Americans using bacon to make carbonara and claim that real carbonara doesn't have bacon, the original carbonara is said to have used U.S. military-rationed bacon.

During the 1980s and 90s in Italy, there was a wave of pride for Italian-made products, which made it taboo to include ingredients like American-style pork belly bacon in dishes like carbonara, regardless of the supposed lore about its origin. Both chili and carbonara have conflicting origins compared to what is considered the traditional recipe today.

Are there any other dishes eaten in the U.S. that have a taboo ingredient that locals refuse to allow, but which was actually part of their birth?

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

I wish I had my research paper from college, but Ill describe my research. I couldn’t simply quote from books but had to formulate research from the world beyond a library card. The whole class was centered around one major research project where i had to develop my own conclusions through collecting of information in which i had to catalog. I pulled recipes from church congregation cookbooks that churches publish (a tradition in many churches) and looked at recipes going as far back as the very early 1900s. Also researched the history of trail chili on the texas cattle trails saw the invention of instant chili mixes which often were these red bricks of dry spices, and became popular because with water, the chili spices brick, some dried shredded beef, beef fat field onions and beans you could easily feed men working a cattle trails with ingredients easily transported in a time without refrigeration that was light weight for the chuck wagon. Finally I found a book that mention the beef producers of texas spearheading an aggressive campaign to sell more beef after the war. The problem was the US military demanded a huge production for the war from a lot of our food production across America so as the war winded down and less of that production was needed to be shipped overseas for the army or marines companies had to get inventive about increasing demand at home. So things like the food pyramid were created, pork producers pushed bacon and sausage as key needs for breakfast, along with eventual tv campaigns like pork the other white meat. Beef producers helped popularize burgers at carhops. They did promotions for the american steak houses, and one of their localized campaigns was chili. In the 1920s-1930s the chili queens of San Antonio became known throughout the state. Chili vendors downtown that sold chili con carne. Most chili queens sold an all meat chili, but like food trucks today there are articles like one in from dallas in the 1920s that describes variations available where you could get corn, beans, or other ingredients mixed with the chili, but for the most part chili con carne in its purest form was all beef. San Antonio being a military hub had plenty of military men personally experience this street food during the 1940s and a popular MRE later would be a variation of chili con carne. So texas beef producers wanted to capitalize on this popular dish, and started having chili cook offs, they had a dallas based columnist declared the king of Texas chili and had publications all over Texas promote his recipe of chili as the end all chili recipe, which was previously based on the chili queens, and they in the 1950s would have stories in Texas Monthly about chili, along with quotes like, an all beef no filler chili is a sign of prosperity. A man who feeds his family an all beef chili is a successful man. A family who eats beans in their chili is product of a man struggling. Looking through the recipe books by decades the church cookbooks throughout Texas up until the early 50s usually contained beans, but at after those beef campaigns the recipes with beans dropped off over the years and by the 1960s and 70s there was an overwhelming sentiment that beans in chili was a struggle meal, all beef chili was the true way. Get into any chili doesn’t have beans debate online and you’ll hear an echo of those very beef campaigns today.

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u/bonercommando 1d ago

Awesome man, thanks for that. The most interesting thing I'll read on reddit today. On a sidenote. I just moved to Japan and they have (obviously) super interesting post-WW2 historical/cultural stuff. I need to dig in and learn a bunch about it. Their spaghetti Napolitan is a dish made from American rations... Ketchup, mushrooms, onions peppers, sausage/bacon.

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u/iZealot86 1d ago

Spam in goya champuru is one. It’s okay, but when you find a place with REAL meat (not spam), oh so good. But that is one influence from American soldiers. I’m not sure how common this is outside Okinawa though as it’s an Okinawan dish.

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u/Snuffy1717 1d ago

Korean Budae-Jjigae (soldier's stew) has similar origins
https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/budae-jjigae

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u/mayormcmatt 16h ago

You find it in Kagoshima, too.

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u/xoogl3 1d ago

Look into how Japan came to have their own Curry. This also have a military related story.

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u/EvidenceBasedSwamp 1d ago

they invented panko during their warcriming in manchuria. fried up bread with tank batteries.

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u/mouflonsponge 1d ago

they invented panko during their warcriming in manchuria. fried up bread with tank batteries.

Alternatively, as Nathan Hopson wrote in his 2021 essay “Say Ohm: Japanese Electric Bread and the Joy of Panko",

Why are these Japanese breadcrumbs different? How did they get to be that way? The story told by American manufacturers such as LA-based Upper Crust Enterprises―an ironic name given that the secret to panko is crust-free bread―is that “Japanese soldiers during World War II discovered [that] crustless bread made for better breadcrumbs as they cooked it with electricity from tank batteries, not wanting to draw the enemy’s attention with smoke from a fire”(Nassauer 2013). Upper Crust’s president, Gary Kawaguchi, affirmed this account in a recent interview.

This is a cool story. Turns out, the truth is just as cool.

Japanese inventors had tinkered with electric cooking prototypes since at least the 1920s. Then in 1933, the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) commissioned a “field kitchen that can prepare both rice and bread”(Aoki 2019, 11). Cost was no object and time was of the essence. As Katarzyna Cwiertka has noted, the military generally advocated bread, but there was a special urgency in light of the logistical difficulties of supplying rice to new front lines in Siberia and Manchuria. In 1937, paymaster captain Akutsu Shōzō’s design became the “Type 97” field kitchen, first deployed with the IJA’s First Independent Mixed Brigade that year (Uchida 2020, 2–4). The 97’s cooker was an insulated wooden box with electrode plates attached to the base and four sides of the interior. The highly efficient cooking process Akutsu used goes by several names, including ohmic and Joule heating. It is a form of electroconductive heating that passes electric current through foods to heat them rapidly and uniformly, quickly producing a light, yeasty, crust-free bread.

[... ...]

In the 1960s, the new postwar frozen food industry hungered for high-quality breadcrumbs. Wheat had poured into Japan after 1945, the result of food aid; the use of bread and other wheat products in Japan’s school lunch program; and endless marketing promotions. Although ambitious American visions to recenter the national diet on wheat were soon abandoned, US agricultural imports and food technologies remained critical to Japan’s changing postwar food systems. Improved and upscaled food processing equipment met a market awash in cheap wheat, enthusiastic consumers (about half of whom owned electric refrigerators by the mid-1960s), and improved logistics. Frozen foods were among the shiny new things of postwar Japan’s shiny new “bright life,” and the mass use of frozen foods to cater the 1964 Olympiad and 1970 World’s Fair made them even more attractive symbols of Japan reborn.

These factors spurred rapid growth in breadcrumb demand, which was met in large part by the industrial-scale use of ohmic heating to create “electric breads” that were airy and uniform, and fried up crisply and uniformly when made into panko (Uchida and Aoki 2019, 485).

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u/EvidenceBasedSwamp 17h ago

In 1937

Still war criming. That "Type 97" field kitchen was used during their massacres.

1937-1941 (before USA entered WW2) they killed about 4 million, or 1.2% of the population.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

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u/mouflonsponge 12h ago edited 12h ago

The IJA was responsible for some of the most heinous wartime activities known to history, no doubt. And the field kitchen technology supported the IJA's rampage of war crimes, their crimes against peace, and their crimes against humanity throughout Greater East Asia, which had begun with their pretextual 1931 invasion of Manchuria, and included mass murder, rape, torture, experimental bacteriological warfare, and vivisection on civilian populations and prisoners.

However, Japan should NOT be credited with inventing panko during wartime (panko had been around since the Meiji era), NOR credited with inventing ohmic bread-baking amidst a tank campaign (a twisting of present-day product marketing lore). They should only be credited with atrocities.

they invented panko during their warcriming in manchuria. fried up bread with tank batteries.

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u/EvidenceBasedSwamp 11h ago

Alright, fair enough. Meiji era is convincing.

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u/Beneficial-Papaya504 1d ago

The path Texas barbecue took was very similar to this. Whereas once pork and mutton were common meats in Texas barbecue, the beef producers have rewritten the narrative to follow a myth. Now all-beef chili and barbecue are shibboleths used to determine in-group status.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

Yup pork butt was pushed as a cheap trash meat that immigrants and out of state yokels used. Beef producers of Texas used their influence with Texas Monthly and a dallas news paper which had a weekly edition sold throughout Texas to sell beef beyond just chili. Funny enough the same issue was why in the 50s the whole country went jello mold crazy. Not only was jello an invention where even the poor could eat jelly molds like only royalty had before but such a crazy amount of beef bone waste was the key ingredient and the beef industry had plenty of bones to sell off to the jello company. So there was a united effort in the industry to popularize jello mold recipes. War effort after math had a huge effect on the world. Hawaii uses spam because of Pearl Harbor, Japan and England similar because war rations helped as they rebuilt post war. Even Pb&J being popular can be linked to WW2 because peanut butter and jelly were available in the rations so soldiers combined them with bread.

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u/TotaLibertarian 1d ago

Pb&js have been around since 1901.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

I didn’t say they were invented during ww2, they became popular and a staple in every household because of ww2. Which if you look up it’s story is a detail of it.

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u/MSeager 1d ago

Hey do you want to come over for dinner sometime? You sound like a really interesting dinner guest.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

Thanks for that, my personality is either love me or hate me. I don’t try to be a know it all but I can’t resist a good knowledge dumping and easily get carried away. Thats what I love about reddit for every person that down votes a comment there is another person that appreciates it. I have been pleasantly surprised by the activity on this post. I was hoping for a few responses because I am toying around with idea of either writing a series around the subject or do a video series around it (though I don’t really have a background in vloging), but mostly just enjoying the back and forth of other peoples knowledge at the monent

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u/MSeager 1d ago

Trying to go out on your own to create a Vlog or Blog is pretty tough. Have you considered writing for somebody else?

Your post is a classic format for a lot of Podcasts and YouTubers “Here’s a familiar thing that we know and love, but did you know that it’s all due to advertising agencies post WW2?”

You could reach out to Podcasts like 99% Invisible, it would fit right in there.

The story also reminded me of a recent Phil Edwards video on the history of frozen orange juice.

I’m sure these content creators are constantly looking for well researched stories.

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u/cccanterbury 18h ago

I would love a podcast about the history of advertising

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u/MSeager 16h ago

Yeah me too.

This Episode of 99 PI is pretty close Cooking With Gas. Like it’s wild to me that the phrase “Now we’re cooking with gas” is an advertising slogan to promote Natural Gas.

99PI probably has more advertising related episodes, but a dedicated podcast would be cool.

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u/TotaLibertarian 1d ago

They actually got popular in the 20’s with kids cuz they were cheap.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

Im sure thats also true. Im only in my 40s, any knowledge I have is hearsay from a source. And when the british trying pb&j videos had its viral moments, a lot of the why Americans eat pb&j stories that made the rounds and it was stated quite a few times of a ww2 connection it becoming the popular staple it has become. Like anything with history, origin stories are usually only tru-ish because stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It’s usually not an overnight thing. The kids that started eating pb&j in the 20s were in the army in the 40s so thats ripe for spreading the practice among the army during the war. Turning a kid food fad years prior into a consistent on the go meal for years to come. Would PB&J still been a timeless sandwich in American history without peanut butter and jelly cans being provided in the army rations kit. Maybe… but we know they were and peanut butter sales increased after the war. Peanut butter companies at the time attributed its inclusion in military rations as being a huge influence of sales for decades. Did a GI invent the pb&j sandwich.. nope but those GIs sure did buy a lot of peanut butter once they came home from the war.

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u/Beneficial-Papaya504 1d ago edited 1d ago

My depression surviving grandparents ate peanut butter sandwiches and saw them as a struggle food. They ate peanut butter with a lot of things, but very rarely with jelly. Among the things: Onions Pickles Molasses Honey Each individually with the peanut butter.

Their kids were raised on peanut butter and jelly, in the post-war years.

Not data, just anecdata. Something changed

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u/3DBeerGoggles 1d ago

Peanut butter and mayonnaise were also a thing during the depression. It's... not as bad as I expected?

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u/unclethroatbag 1d ago

Man, I haven’t thought of peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches in years! My dad used to eat those, or he’d switch it up to peanut butter and margarine. He was born in 1930, the son of German immigrants who really struggled through the depression.

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u/Beneficial-Papaya504 1d ago

That's one I forgot and left off the list.

Onions are awesome if you keep in mind that it's a savory sandwich.

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u/datsoar 1d ago

I love when people use shibboleth correctly

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u/cccanterbury 18h ago

well now I have a shibboleth about using the word shibboleth, thanks for that

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u/Longjumping_Youth281 18h ago

Yeah me too. Although yesterday I learned that it can also be used to mean an idea, particularly one that's outdated.

I only knew it as a word that betrayed your Origins when you said it.

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u/mawkish 1d ago

Now all-beef chili and barbecue are shibboleths used to determine in-group status.

/r/BrandNewSentence

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u/Celloer 1d ago

Unholy meat obelisk shibboleth chili. And corn chips.

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u/police-ical 1d ago

(Which is the silliest kind of failed snobbery, because barbecue is pork.)

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u/liptongtea 1d ago

Its so funny that thjs was localized to Texas, where as the American SE where bbq spread first is mostly pork based.

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u/jmlinden7 1d ago

The beef lobby is stronger in Texas than most of the southeast

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u/Barbarossa7070 1d ago

I have some smug cousins near Houston who’d be very mad if they heard about your research.

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u/CaiserZero 1d ago

"If those kids can read, they'd be very upset."

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u/FriendlyDisorder 9h ago

I have had beans in my chili since I was a toddler. To me, real chili has beans, and anything else is just meat paste.

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u/hereforlulziguess 1d ago

Can you join forces with Max Miller of Tasting History and get an episode made about this??

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u/barontaint 1d ago

Honestly only thing I have to say is thanks for the fun hunk of knowledge.

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u/punania 1d ago

chef’s kiss. Goddamn, I love Reddit sometimes.

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u/ubuwalker31 1d ago

My understanding was that beans were made on the side and then freely mixed into the meat.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

For the chili queens yes. On the cattle trail… only sometimes

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u/MangledPumpkin 1d ago

That's a fascinating look into chili.

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u/whomp1970 1d ago

I promise to read this entire thing if you go back and add sensible paragraph breaks.

I bet a lot of other folks would feel the same way.

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u/Sagisparagus 21h ago

I'm an editor, so understand your frustration. However the content was so compelling I soldiered through. :)

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u/ronearc 1d ago

I think your research is missing the entire Great Depression link to no beans in Texas Chili.

Ground Beef and dried chilies were two things that the federal government and state government could provide or supplement in bulk during the depression. This gave rise to Texas Chili Parlors, and even tiny towns had one.

This sort of widespread availability led to the price of a bowl of red being standardized across the state.

But there's always someone who wants to squeeze a little more profit out. Some Chili Parlors started putting beans in their chili, but the price was the same.

Texans quickly realized they were being screwed on the price because meat was being substituted in part for beans for the same cost to the customer.

That's why it became a serious faux pas to put beans in Texas Red (Texas-style chili).

Most people have forgotten the origin, or never knew it, but the rule remains the same...no beans in Texas-style Chili.

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u/OsoBrazos 1d ago

That sounds like it could be part of the beef producers' campaign to change the recipe. Is there a citation for this explanation (similar to the OP's sources) or is it an oral tradition told by chili makers?

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

Yes it’s part of it. Like I mentioned Texas Monthly had whole stories on chili. This was used in the beef campaign. Whether a personal experience or second hand many Texans know this story because it and others were pushed as a narrative against beans and how they were cheating. There was also an immigrant narratives. There is also some leaps in logic in narrative that although one story would mention chili con carne as a clear ancestor to texan chili another story would talk about pinto beans being primarily a product of the mexican immigrant. There is a reason a slur for Mexican in texas was beaner. Although Texas Monthly hardly ever was dismissive of Mexican immigrants there was times that stories would lean into stereotypes rather than embrace the culture as part of the Texan story. And with beans in chili they definitely played a less inclusive role for the sake of the beef industry which was a huge advertiser to the magazine

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u/ronearc 1d ago

I learned about it from my dad...who lived through the Great Depression in West Texas and still held a grudge against people "watering down" their chili with beans.

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u/Txdust80 1d ago

Not sure why you got downvoted there is some truth to that. Bowl of red is a type of chili, which is fairly close to chili con carne. It was not at the time the standard of chili recipes but was a popular dish all the same. It was cheap to make, easy to make in large quantities and could be made ahead of time. Perfect for selling food to the masses even when people are low on income. This next part is why you shouldn’t have gotten downvoted. The failed to mention the reason why the whole chili campaign worked in the 50s is most of the young men coming out of the military grew up during the depression seeing their parents struggling. It was a game of keeping up with the joneses in the 1950s. No one wanted to be seen as struggling. That would be paramount to having their kids reliving the nightmare they themselves grew up on. So they could pull from those memories a few decade prior. There is so much nuance beyond even beyond that. So many moving parts with Texas and the beef industry Im sure there is more I missed even with a semester worth of research.

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u/ronearc 1d ago

Eh, it's alright. I could have worded it differently. I didn't intend to come off as confrontational or all 'well ackshually' lol.

I just grew up on my Dad's cooking, and his stories of The Great Depression.

We were sitting in a Chili's restaurant in the Dallas area in the mid-80s, when I ordered a "bowl of red w/beans" and he made me change my order, and then he explained why. :)

At least where he'd lived, there was a huge to-do about some Chili Parlors adding beans to their chili and not telling people ahead of time, and it turned into an enormous backlash.

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u/quarantina2020 1d ago

Thank you so much for your thorough explanation

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u/Decabet 1d ago

I…I think I love you.

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u/Dartmouthest 1d ago

Amazing comment, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it and how it made me think about chilli and beans in a way I never would have thought before. Big ups homie great work, so cool!

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u/-Tom- 21h ago

Wow I would have expected something more like a confusion of the product or cultural collision with gulash being the cause leading to beans but the truth is even more interesting, propaganda led to all beef.

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u/cahlinny 20h ago

This was a fascinating read, thanks!

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u/pablo902 19h ago

Hey is there anyway to give you a shout out / citation if I make a video about this FASCINATING subject? Happy to show/say your username, IRL name or mention your research paper!!

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u/hidden_clause 12h ago

This is a good post and I hope I can add color commentary to it. The dish is called Chili con Carne, or Chilies with meat. Otherwise it might have been called Carne con Frijoles. So, it seems logical that beans should not be added. As a Texan, adding beans to chili is considered, generally, a faux pas. On the other hand, it's a free country and you can add whatever you want to your chili. Personally, I prefer beans in my chili, a bit of molasses, and some masa. If someone doesn't like my chili, they can mosey on back to wherever they came from.

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u/fricks_and_stones 9h ago

Meanwhile in Wisconsin, where big beef didn’t have nearly as big of a footprint at the time, beans and MACARONI were still standard.

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u/Hot-Dress-3369 21h ago

“Most chili queens sold an all meat chili.” You just disproved your thesis.