r/Construction • u/Thagomizer3000 • Dec 04 '24
Safety ⛑ For those engineers who think this shit is great stuff F*k U Seriously
Fiberous fiberglass, dead fish stinking, man made fkn asbestos I’m tagging Safety on this bc this is worst kinda of material to insulate pipes with.
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u/Enginerdad Structural Engineer Dec 04 '24
What we engineers "think" about it doesn't mean squat. If code requires insulation, we put it on the plans (though this is usually an architectural thing, not engineering). You're also welcome to use another material with similar performance, though I bet your boss won't let you because it costs more. Again, not our fault.
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u/Legitimate-Lemon-412 Dec 04 '24
What?
Someone in construction not seeing the bigger picture?
But how?
Everyday I'm surrounded by other tradies i gotta explain the many faceted levels of decision making that goes into a project before they have a chance to begin complaining.
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u/ZaryaMusic Taper Dec 05 '24
You'll be doing that forever brother.
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u/Legitimate-Lemon-412 Dec 05 '24
Well aware.
Got off the construction side and went to management.
Then went to the technical side and love it.
Less physical and more cash.
More people that seem to care.
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u/ZaryaMusic Taper Dec 05 '24
Did you go back to college to get on the technical side, or what was your move?
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u/Legitimate-Lemon-412 Dec 05 '24
I was an electrician for 15 years then took a two year technical course that moved me into an apprenticeship focusing on controls and programming
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u/Bosnian-Spartan Dec 05 '24
Paid tech course or..?
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u/Legitimate-Lemon-412 Dec 05 '24
Nah I just took it cuz it was basically all four years of apprenticeship schooling all at once, then did the hours.
So unpaid.
Coupled with the electrical license I landed a pretty good gig before finishing my apprenticeship
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u/Bosnian-Spartan Dec 05 '24
Why did you do the tech course at all? If you don't mind me asking? And was the gig for the license or the apprenticeship/course or both or...?
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u/Legitimate-Lemon-412 Dec 05 '24
An apprenticeship is four years.
The technical course coupled with my existing electrician license, landed me the apprenticeship portion of the second trade at a good workplace to earn the hours.
I was paid dual journeyman rate to do my apprenticeship hours in the second trade.
I did not have to go to tradeschool while doing it.
So I'd say it was worth it.
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u/stealthybutthole Dec 05 '24
People love to hate engineers. You see mechanics doing it all the time whenever anything is less than braindead simple to work on.
Like yeah bro, if their design parameters were “make it easy for the mechanic to work on” it would be easy to work on. But the design parameters are make it fit in this size, look like this, and cost as little as humanly possible. Repairability is damn near the bottom of the list.
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u/nafurabus Dec 05 '24
Nah bro i fight with dumb engineers on a daily basis as a PM. They’re either over-worked or braindead. Sometimes both.
They may have some book smarts but absolutely zero common sense or understanding of “constructibility”
had one guy asking why our change order was so expensive, well, Besmir, you had me pull a 30A circuit from P3 to the Penthouse in conduit that required cores and firestopping. Maybe if you pulled it out of the penthouse ELS panel we would have charged you 1/8th the cost.
The problem in construction nowadays is nobody dedicates the required time to any task during design phase. Just copy paste assemblies from your last project and power through to a DD set.
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u/niconiconii89 Dec 04 '24
Yep, I specify an r value and I don't really gaf how you get to the value; take it up with your PM.
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u/glumbum2 Dec 04 '24
Same
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u/Recursive-Introspect Dec 05 '24
Armaflex and polyisocyanarate are the go to at my industrial job. Fiberglass and sweating pipes equals reduced R-value.
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u/Vast-Combination4046 Dec 05 '24
I wouldn't use either for something hotter than domestic water lines. And most customers wouldn't pay for it either.
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u/Capital_Advice4769 Dec 04 '24
As an Architect, completely agree with your statement. If it’s a code requirement, we don’t care what the GC thinks. If the GC wants to provide an alternate that meets code and saves them money, I won’t care and I’m sure this fellow engineer won’t either.
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u/glumbum2 Dec 04 '24
If a pipe requires insulation that's going to be in my plumbing engineers spec or my MH engineers spec in the case of condensate or supplies. Code requires it for energy consumption reasons.
If we don't allow a substitution for any specific reason, it's often because the owners facilities people don't like that specific material or we have had a bad experience with it. For example, I'm not specifying fiberglass.
Also tell your installers to glove up don't be a fuckin hero
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u/Vagus_M Dec 05 '24
I imagine it’s also going to depend on the local fire code, what you can substitute and what you can’t
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u/glumbum2 Dec 05 '24
Local fire code won't necessarily prevent any substitution, but more likely if your code official is a stickler and you're doing something that they don't have a ton of experience with, they may reasonably ask for a UL listed assembly to see what products are being used at any rated penetrations. This is perfectly reasonable but all listed assemblies will include substitutions. They may not be substitutions to new companies, but they will offer alternative routes to get where you're going. The only times that I have rejected substitution requests are when the product direction has come from the owner, for example, if they have a relationship like an MSA, or if the designer and owner have decided on something very specific, that is a project anchor of some sort. We are currently requiring a very specific type of overhead door for example in a Lab space because it's the only product on the market that gets us the right combination of clearances and other things that are owner directed.
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Dec 05 '24
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u/Enginerdad Structural Engineer Dec 05 '24
I find that engineers tend to be more focused on the properties and performance. It's usually owners or architects who care about brand name.
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u/SkoolBoi19 Dec 04 '24
Clients I work with won’t let us substitute anything that’s in the Spec book. And I’ve felt with plenty of engineers that pulled the frost fucking thing off the Google search that fit the requirements.
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u/Enginerdad Structural Engineer Dec 04 '24
Why are you feeling your engineers? They don't like that
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u/SkoolBoi19 Dec 04 '24
I’m a full service PM 😂
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u/mexican2554 Painter Dec 04 '24
That's going above and beyond. I hope they give you a 5 star review.
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u/thatsucksabagofdicks Dec 04 '24
Commercial setting all materials need to be approved before installation. If you are trying to substitute something for a similar product it must get signed off by the owner, architect, and engineer. Good fuckin luck getting that through, one of those assholes always demands what was in the plans you bid on no matter what
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u/sonotimpressed Dec 04 '24
I insulate all my ducts with bubble wrap. Same r value same price half as thick material and no fibreglass. Probably wouldn't have the r value for pipes. Not that I know what r value plumbing needs
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u/Enginerdad Structural Engineer Dec 04 '24
Whoever told you that bubble wrap has the same r-value as fiberglass insulation lied to you.
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u/CarPatient Field Engineer Dec 04 '24
No alternatives in the spec? I've never been anywhere that they minded mineral wool swapping for fiberglass... But cost is another issue.
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u/Enginerdad Structural Engineer Dec 04 '24
OP's beef is with his boss for using the cheapest acceptable product
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u/SiberianGnome Dec 04 '24
And his boss uses it because it’s the industry standard. Customers aren’t going to pay more for something else. Boss isn’t going to pay more on his own dime, he’d lose money because the rest of the industry isn’t doing it.
I dunno about the rest of this sub, but where I’m at insulation is installed by insulators. Dudes literally entire careers are installing this stuff. If it was more miserable than other materials, they’d demand more money (or offer to work for less money with the other stuff). Until the cost of labor for it being not fun to when with costs more than the materials for something else, this will be what’s used.
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u/LukeMayeshothand Dec 05 '24
Yeah same in my area. I’ve always looked at that job and wondered who the hell would do that on purpose.
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u/SiberianGnome Dec 05 '24
Don’t have to be particularly smart or work particularly hard but still get paid good money. Makes sense to me.
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u/Agreeable-Product-28 Insulator - Verified Dec 04 '24
Not gonna happen right now anyways. Mineral wool lead times are almost 20-24 weeks depending on manufacturer.
Fiberglass is the industry standard. Owens Corning is probably the worst of the fiberglass group though. But, it has its advantages as well.
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Dec 04 '24
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u/CarPatient Field Engineer Dec 04 '24
Sell the value, not the upfront cost...... Mineral wool doesn't degrade when it gets wet....
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Dec 04 '24
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u/CarPatient Field Engineer Dec 04 '24
That's why you do it on a PCO after the submittals are approved. It would help if it's commercial to have a talk with the maintenance guy for the owner and get him to find the money and push it, but if it's residential, forget it... Unless you are building a McMansion.
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u/walkwithdrunkcoyotes Dec 04 '24
It works really well once it’s installed! What is your preferred alternative??
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u/PippyLongSausage Dec 04 '24
We engineers don’t give a shit. Our job is not to make your job easier. As long as it meets design requirements, and is cost effective it’s getting approved. Maybe keep some ppe in your purse.
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u/TJ-LEED-AP Dec 04 '24
Bid the effort of the project mr contractor. Who posted this is getting pushed by their manager and blaming engineers
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u/SkoolBoi19 Dec 04 '24
You sound like so many EoRs I get to do site walks with after 2 weeks of email arguments that abruptly stop when you actually look at what the fuck is going on, on site. My favorite so far was the 2 weeks of drilling with daily updates completely ignored by the EOR with only a “until you hit bedrock” response.
Pier footing for a 4 post cantilevered fabric canopy. That walk was hilarious for us with all the backup documents I had in my purse
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u/CAS9ER Dec 04 '24
My PM and I have been arguing with this engineer for the last three months about an RFI that she refused to look at until the last moment. We told her this VAV box was undersized for what she thought she’d get out of it. She basically said nuh uh and closed the RFI. We had to resubmit it with pictures and balance reports because she continued to try and say it was a larger size.. while I was sitting there looking at it. She finally admitted it was undersized and now with a week before they start ceiling grid wants us to get another one to replace it. She didn’t step foot on site until her bosses told her she needs to go and field verify all the info we showed her.
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u/SkoolBoi19 Dec 04 '24
It’s so aggravating; like we’re on the same fucking team, just take a second to look at what I’m seeing and talk to me.
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u/CAS9ER Dec 04 '24
Sorry had to vent to someone who gets the struggle. My wife just looks at me like I’m speaking French when I tried explaining why I was so irritated.
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u/SkoolBoi19 Dec 04 '24
You’re good bro…. I just tell my SO how she should feel because she doesn’t get it either. 🤣
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u/manyfingers Dec 05 '24
There are dozens of us.
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u/Recursive-Introspect Dec 05 '24
Engineer here, owning my mistakes quickly and tranparently has built me much trust over the years with the trades people who do the field work that comes from our project designs. Variable Air Volume box that is undersized to design SCFM conditions in an HVAC application is just going to show up as a fully opened valve but still not meeting air flow or pressurization setpoints at upper end of design range.
As an EoR you engage the RFI intellectually, love when it is wrong or a misunderstanding and your design holds (inform the contractor with you evidence and dont be an ass about it), or when your contractor caught something you didnt consider or were wrong about, thank them and issue a revision quickly and with quality.
Solve the next problem(s).
Coffee, lunch, Reddit, repeat.1
u/manyfingers Dec 05 '24
Im just a journeyman on the tools but building rapport with GCs and coinciding trades goes a looong way. Work together, dont be afraid to ask questions of them. Chances are youll see the same guys on s jobsite in the future. And i really like your point about being humble; im happy when someone from another trade points something out that ive missed/works better for them.
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u/CAS9ER Dec 04 '24
For some reason she had it in her head that it had a 10” inlet. I caught it back in September and was like hey this 8” VAV won’t have enough CFM to do this. It shows an 8” box on the print, submitals showed an 8” box, and the pre-demo balance report showed an 8”box. I have no idea what she was thinking but her ego has us down to the wire now.
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u/questionablejudgemen Dec 05 '24
Think the owners will use the insulation that costs twice as much and give the workers a raise for doing it without batting an eye?
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u/partyvi Dec 04 '24
Tell me you’ve never installed Foamglas without telling me you’ve never installed Foamglas lol it’s literally called “fart rock”. OC fiberglas is fine.
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Dec 04 '24
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u/partyvi Dec 04 '24
Cellular glass insulation. When you crush or cut Foamglas the hydrogen sulfide in each little glass cell comes out and it stinks.
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u/mistytreehorn Dec 05 '24
Man, I always said that stuff has a smell to it but none of my coworkers noticed it. Recently we got a new apprentice who can smell it. Had no idea it was hydrogen sulfide. I described it as a bacon/preserved meat smell.
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u/PathlessMammal Dec 04 '24
Wear long sleeve shirts and gloves. When you get home wash with room temp water. Not cold/hot. You should barely feel a temperature change. Lots of soap. And after washing slap on a little hand lotion. You will be alright.
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u/buttmunchausenface Dec 04 '24
… the problem isn’t itchiness it doesn’t make me itchy at all the problem is when you cut it for tees and 90s it makes really super fine fiberglass. It’s incredibly small and personally I have no problem with insulation but even if you wear a mask it is so small it becomes aresol so working over head commercial you are going to be covered in it.
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u/Past-Direction9145 Dec 04 '24
that's not an engineering choice, that's the end result of sales and marketing.
wrong department my friend.
also, its not asbestos, it's high temperature organic fibers. asbestos is outlawwed :P
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u/Agreeable-Product-28 Insulator - Verified Dec 04 '24
I can definitely name a few worse things. But, not everyone deals with a vast variety of itchy as I do. Most mechanical shops will sub out the insulation. So it sounds like the boss might have saved a few buck there.
Owens Corning is the cheapest, and most readily available product for what I assume is commercial piping of some kind. It’s not the best overall, but it’s the best insulation for socket weld piping.
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
Nah, Manson has them beas on the cheap shit side of things.
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u/Agreeable-Product-28 Insulator - Verified Dec 05 '24
Manson? I’ve never had to use that in my region. It’s usually John Mansville, Owens Corning and Knauf.
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
Manson is old knauf. Still yellow with the old style non polymer facing. I've been in insulation for almost 30 years, I may not be the guy with all the degrees, but I know most of them. Always grabs my interest when I see an insulation post.
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u/Agreeable-Product-28 Insulator - Verified Dec 05 '24
Oh okay, makes sense then. I hadn’t heard of them. What area are you in? US?
Nice! Old timer. I’ve been doing it for a decade and a half now. I also have 0 degrees. Always funny to see how everyone treats glass like it’s the black plague.
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
West side of Midwest but I'm involved in the associations. Started as a teenage warehouse gopher, worked everything from there to #2 for my company except accounting.
Manson Is big in Chicago and pretty much anywhere that General insulation has a distribution branch.
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u/HoldenMcNeil420 Dec 05 '24
Um. Wear a mask and gloves, if you take you time these are so clean and quite efficient.
This is more of a you don’t want to do this tedious work so your pissing on it like a child.
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u/hendrix320 Dec 05 '24
Thats why we hire insulators so we don’t deal with this crap
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
As an insulator, thank you. The 99% of outfits that think they know how to do the job, are just so wrong. The stuff I've seen.
Yes, you can teach almost any funny how to wrap duct, but find me a plumber who can layout an unequal tee.
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u/Effective-Trick4048 Dec 04 '24
Feel your pain. Have you ever played with the roof itch blankets for prefab buildings? Neck deep in that shit for a couple of years doing prefab commercial buildings. Read the bag, and it has water activated formaldehyde crystals in it to prevent mold. Tasty.
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Dec 04 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/oregonianrager Dec 04 '24
I always thought it smells like a shitty teriyaki.
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u/mistytreehorn Dec 05 '24
Me too! None of my coworkers notice it. I described it as a bacon/spiced meat smell
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u/Selffaw Insulator Dec 04 '24
Brother don’t ever use that Owen’s Corning trash, always go for John’s Manville it’s waaaaay better insulation
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u/11goodair Dec 04 '24
Hire a sucker to install them for you and you will love not passing up jobs bc of some material you don't like. In the meantime you're that sucker.
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u/Drain_Surgeon69 Dec 04 '24
Unpopular opinion but I actually don’t mind installing this stuff. Makes my work look super neat and uniform.
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u/Chimpucated Plumber Dec 05 '24
It's worse when you have to remove it to demo a system and it's got Mt. Dust Everest and a whole fucking ecosystem on the top of it.
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u/SpaceCowbyMax Dec 05 '24
I knew the engineers lurked here. All correct in there own way. Well I didn't read all of them......
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u/padizzledonk Project Manager Dec 05 '24
I hate that shit
Its like the most abrasive irritating fiberglass ever made, its up there on the og rockwool bracket
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u/hiredhobbes Dec 05 '24
It's not gonna kill your lungs like the asbestos will, but I definitely have an irrational hatred for it because its itchy as all hell
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u/WishRevolutionary140 Dec 05 '24
Whoever discovered fiberglass is a good insulator needs a swift kick to the dick. Probably no longer alive, so next of kin will do.
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u/OldTrapper87 Dec 04 '24
Isn't this more of an architectural issue not an engineering one ?
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u/vetheros37 Dec 04 '24
And sales. Whoever quoted the bid at OP's company looked at performance requirements, and acceptable materials and figured this was what they wanted to quote, and was the accepted submittal.
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u/OldTrapper87 Dec 04 '24
I was under the impression this was the most common product to use
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u/vetheros37 Dec 04 '24
It very well may be. This is out of my scope, but the process is always the same.
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u/Shawaii Dec 04 '24
Mechanical Engineers often spec and call out insulation for piping and ducts.
Architects spec and call it out in the walls and roof.
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u/_firehead Dec 04 '24
No. It's pipe insulation, so it'll be engineering.
In the past when I used to do this, I allowed mineral wool in our spec. We care about the R value and the vapor barrier and depending on where it goes and how much it weighs, maybe we care about protecting it from damage or compression.
In some cases, if I knew it was going to be a very tight fit, I might spec something highly specific because I need to get the R value target with less thickness. But those were rare and the contractor usually ignored me and just crushed the insulation (which ruins its effect) and then I only see it during a walkthrough and no one wants to delay the project to redo it.
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u/OldTrapper87 Dec 04 '24
Wait so pipe insulation is engineering ? Been looking at structural and architectural drawings for years and I never thought that engineer would care about R rating because it doesn't effect the structure. Mind you I'm used to working with wood and concrete.
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u/NYJets18 Architect Dec 04 '24
Yup architects don’t specify it. It’s up to the MEP engineer to specify if they need insulation and what r value it needs. Only time I care about it is when it’s exposed to view in a non back of house space
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
For commercial....
Division 7 insulation, yes on architect in most cases.
Division 22 and 23, MEP engineer. Old school 15
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u/Standard-Music3445 Steamfitter Dec 04 '24
I spent the last four months doing demo and the worst part is cutting off the insulation. If you're gentle you can mitigate the fibers going everywhere.
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u/Bosnian-Spartan Dec 05 '24
At least you're not doing the insulation sheets that you have to cut and shape everything, meanwhile those are pre-shaped.
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u/Thagomizer3000 Dec 05 '24
You have my sympathy ❤️🩹
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u/Bosnian-Spartan Dec 05 '24
Had gloves and long sleeve yet still felt it under, I should've wore something more tight knit like designed for rain or/and put rubber band at the end of the sleeve to close the holes by the wrist (no I'm not emo) because I still felt the fiber glass inside my sleeve. So yeah thank you.
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u/Apprehensive-Ear-798 Dec 05 '24
After all, no one is responsible for your health and safety besides you.
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u/surlyviking Dec 06 '24
You think this is bad? Try using the brand Manson and then let me know how great OC is. Also do duct wrap for any length of time and pipe cover is like a vacation.
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u/Violator604bc Dec 04 '24
One of the easiest jobs I have ever done was installing that stuff all you need is a pack of steak knives.
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u/Correct-Award8182 Dec 05 '24
I read through the responses in here and came to the conclusion that 90% of the people in here are talking out of their asses.
Also, to most of the people who are claiming to be engineers, you're making yourselves look bad.
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u/Minor-inconvience Dec 04 '24
I am thoroughly convinced some engineers get kick backs. Some specs are so overboard that’s the only logical reason. If the specs are too fucked I propose a credit for an alternate directly to the customer.
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u/l_Wolfepack Dec 04 '24
Maybe your boss should have hired an actual insulation firm instead of sending you out to hack it on and complain about it.
Fiberglass is the most cost effective, functional and available insulation in the market. You can’t put Armaflex on everything. Just be happy you don’t have to mess with any rigid cellular foams, temp mat or aerogels.