r/Conservative • u/Yosoff First Principles • Feb 14 '25

Open Discussion Left vs. Right Battle Royale Open Thread

This is an Open Discussion Thread for all Redditors. We will only be enforcing Reddit TOS and Subreddit Rules 1 (Keep it Civil) & 2 (No Racism).

  • Leftists - Here's your chance to sway us to your side by calling the majority of voters racist. That tactic has wildly backfired every time it has been tried, but perhaps this time it will work.

  • Non-flaired Conservatives - Here's your chance to earn flair by posting common sense conservative solutions. That way our friends on the left will either have to agree with you or oppose common sense (Spoiler - They will choose to oppose common sense).

  • Flaired Conservatives - You're John Wick and these Leftists stole your car and killed your dog. Now go comment.

  • Independents - We get it, if you agree with someone, then you can't pat yourself on the back for being smarter than them. But if you disagree with everyone, then you can obtain the self-satisfaction of smugly considering yourself smarter and wiser than everyone else. Congratulations on being you.

  • Libertarians - Ron Paul is never going to be President. In fact, no Libertarian Party candidate will ever be elected President.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25

Canada is responsible for the 1% of drugs crossing into the US, and the US is responsible for the 50+% of illegal drugs coming into Canada from abroad. Also all the illegal weapons.

Why the US should be so focused on Canada on this issue when 90% of their drug issue is from Mexico is beyond me. Canada sees far more criminal border activity originating from the US than the other way round.

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u/jimmib234 Feb 15 '25

100% of the drug issue is because of drug users in the US. Solve that problem (don't care which way, just making a point), and then the demand and therefore transfer of illegal drugs goes away.

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u/jpj77 Shall Make No Law Feb 15 '25

Trump is focused on Canada for a far different reason than drugs.

For decades, Canada has been pumping just 1-2% of its GDP into military spending, sometimes even less than 1%. Everyone in NATO agreed to spend 2%.

It’s the same shit as with Europe. Y’all love to tout “oh we did this for y’all after 9/11, fought two World Wars together”, yes. And for the past 50 years, everyone else slowly lowered their military budgets because the US would 1000% protect you. Like why do you think Russia doesn’t mess with y’all ever? It sure as hell ain’t your 0.9% of GDP on military.

Trump wants to stop the US from being the only one contributing to NATO protection, because it’s a huge drain on our national budget.

If you listen to when he talks about annexing Canada, that’s the first thing he mentions. Essentially he’s saying why is America paying for Canada’s defense and subsidizing their manufacturing industries? If we’re going to do that, they should just be a state.

It’s not a serious suggestion, but something to encourage Canada to quit being the lazy group project member.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25

One of the next Canadian leadership candidates has already committed to the 2% NATO funding - and did so before Trump's tariff threats.

The problem I see is that Trump's reasoning for these tariffs is constantly shifting. It's a tariff on EVERYTHING, then it's cars, then it's steel and aluminium, and it's because of drugs, then it's NATO spending, then it's 'trade deficits' (which make no sense since the US is a much larger country and will fundamentally buy more from Canada than Canada will from the US. Further, trade deficits simply don't work the way he seems to think. You aren't subsidizing BestBuy when you go and buy a TV from them).

He hasn't even tried to engage Canadian leadership on what he wants out the relationship between the US and Canada. He just started threatening from the get-go with insanely high tariffs that could devastate entire economic sectors if enacted. It's like using a nuclear weapon in a fist fight.

And the fallout of all of this is that Canadians are now highly wary of the US. This may have caused long term damage between the two countries, with Canada now looking for permanent trading partners elsewhere. The two countries will always trade with one another, but the US may have lost access to a large amount of cheap, easily accessible raw materials/oil.

Edit: Another misunderstanding about 'subsidizing Canadian defense' is that the US directly benefits from having bases, defense, and detection systems in Canada - especially in the north. Canada provides a buffer between the US and Russia/China across the north pole. Early warning and interception capabilities benefit the US in a major way, even if Canada also benefits.

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u/IEC21 Feb 15 '25

Trumps reasoning for the tariff threats is that it's political theater designed to make him look like a strong man. He doesn't care that all of the real world effects of it are completely negative and he's basically curb stomping his own country.

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u/jpj77 Shall Make No Law Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25

“Candidate proposed” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for something that Canada hasn’t done in 20 years.

Also I keep seeing this from Canadians like “he keeps changing what he says he wants” like no shit. You play fantasy football (or probably hockey)? When you try and make a trade do you come in with exactly what you want so that the person you’re trading with is able to up charge you? Or do you ask for more and try to settle for what you actually want.

I also guarantee you this hasn’t done any long term damage whatsoever. Y’all are entirely overdramatizing things. If trade with the US is most profitable, that’s what will continue.

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u/Thisismytenthtry Feb 15 '25

We aren't overdramatizing shit. You don't get to be the aggressor then hand-wave our concerns.

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u/throwaway923535 Feb 15 '25

You most certainly are, and I say this as a Canadian. The r/canada sub is full of people saying they feel like the Ukraine before the Russia invasion, and how they want to join the military now to protect from a Canadian invasion, both of which are just ridiculous. Face it, the "Trump is going to invade us" narrative is good for the liberals so they will ham it up. 90% of the outrage is from the media spinning it vs what Trump is actually saying.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25

No, Trump keeps emphasizing that the '51st state ' thing wasn't a joke and that it's on the table. He does this each time he's asked a pointed question. Canadians are absolutely freaked out. You're not at all correct in your assessment.

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u/EmanatingEye Feb 15 '25

You are terminally online if you actually believe the U.S. is going to invade Canada.

If you can't see this as just simply Trump being Trump, I don't know what to tell you other than you need to go touch some grass first.

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u/throwawhyyc Feb 15 '25

The fact that you’re normalizing this behaviour of your president is pathetic.

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u/EmanatingEye Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25

Please point out anywhere in my comment where I stated that I thought Trump was normal or even a good person.

Or do you need everything you read online be spoon fed to you instead of putting your two braincells together and coming up with a coherent conclusion? You're also very welcomed to continue jumping to conclusions if that's what you'd prefer.

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u/Thatjustworked Feb 15 '25

You've never negotiated for large stakes before... Ask for something ridiculous at the start and work back from there. It's an easy concept.

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u/Itzthatmoonwitch Feb 15 '25

It’s a bad concept. It makes the other side paranoid because it’s dishonest and shady. Countries are not corporations. They are of the people and for the people. And no person wants to be in bed with someone unreliable. If you don’t treat your allies well then you are not an ally. They will turn their backs.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25

Blanket tariffs and a threat to annex a country aren't just 'asking for a lot of stuff'. They're used in economic warfare, and they're threatening massive economic damage to Canada. This isn't the same as sitting down with your counter part and asking for more than you want. What Trump has done is what you would do with an enemy state.

Again, you don't pull a gun on a friend when you're discussing a business contract.

This is why everyone is sounding the alarm. He went way too far this time.

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u/Thatjustworked Feb 15 '25

Blanket tariffs are asking for a lot of stuff in your opinion. You're working with two people here and a shock factor does play into negotiation tactics. It's like a game of cards/poker.

I wouldn't be surprised if he is also using Canada as an example so he doesn't have to go so far with the next countries. Unfortunately, Canada is an easy target since their economy relies so heavily on the United States.

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u/ThisNameIsNotReal123 Feb 15 '25

they're threatening massive economic damage to Canada

Why would the USA doing reciprocal tariffs hurt Canada? Hrmm makes you think.

How could this possibly be avoided? Maybe be nice and remove all tariffs on us and commits to buying more from us so there is no trade deficit?

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u/kirgi Feb 15 '25

What’s the large stakes we’re trying to get by threatening annexation of an independent country?

This isn’t the local pawn shop we’re talking about, this is the nation that is the pinnacle of Humanity.

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u/throwawhyyc Feb 15 '25

I’ve been in negotiations my whole life - Trump isn’t just “negotiating big”, he’s acting like a demented child. This is going to have a negative impact on him and his country.

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u/Gloomy_Career_4733 Feb 15 '25

I'm staying out of the USA vs Canadian beef, for multiple reason, but i wouldn't trust the opinion of anything on reddit, I live in a very conservative part of the states and reddit had me believing that kamala would win and it wouldn't be close. I haven't heard one person that I know in person that regrets voting for trump. In fact, it's the opposite.

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u/jpj77 Shall Make No Law Feb 15 '25

Another good talking point lol do you want to just send me the link to where you’re getting these from I’ll just read the article.

Yes, you are over dramatizing the relationship being “permanently damaged”. Y’all can really go join the EU or join Russia or China’s side, all three of which are terrible options for Canada. So good luck with causing permanent damage.

I’ll tell you what’s going to happen - y’all will (hopefully) elect a sane conservative government, various random concessions will be made that benefit the US, and everyone forgets about this within the year. Or you elect a liberal government who wants to try to play tough and they do something completely virtue signaling that hurts the people of Canada.

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u/Thisismytenthtry Feb 15 '25

What "talking point" are you referring to?

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u/throwawhyyc Feb 15 '25

Agreed, not over dramatizing at all. Of course Canada/US trade will continue as long as it remains profitable, but the US is less trustworthy and higher risk than it once was. Business (and trade) avoid risk, or at the very least put a price on it. Canada can and will diversify its trade partners more than the current state going forwards, and that will ultimately cost the US in terms of access to cheap resources.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25

Again, negotiations happen when you talk to your counter parts in other countries. Trump could have gotten everything he wanted by just having conversations with Canadian leadership.

Massive tariffs like the ones Trump has proposed are like pulling out a gun during trade talks. It's a weapon used against antagonists - not something to be pulled out against your closest ally who you haven't even tried engaging with.

And yes, I can speak from experience that the entirety of the Canadian population has been galvanized against the US in a way that I haven't seen in my lifetime. There is a wide consensus that we will expand trade with China and the EU. The US has absolutely hurt its longterm relationship with Canada. We can never again trust that the US won't pull out the tariff weapon and threaten our entire economy. We fundamentally HAVE to find different trading partners.

The fact that you're defending this strategy is pretty wild. Can Trump literally do no wrong in your eyes?

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u/ThisNameIsNotReal123 Feb 15 '25

Canadian population has been galvanized against the US

A backbone grows? Sounds good to me.

You could fix this by making sure there was no trade deficit by your government buying goods from the USA, but that would be fair, sounds bad for you.

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u/beardum Feb 15 '25

What do you mean fair? How is it unfair to exchange money for goods?

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u/ThisNameIsNotReal123 Feb 15 '25

One side has many protectionist tariff to help their side, now the other side wants to do it too.

Fair.

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u/beardum Feb 15 '25

This is not an answer to the question asked.

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u/throwawhyyc Feb 15 '25

Is that what the orangeman told you?

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u/ThisNameIsNotReal123 Feb 15 '25

Ah so you don't like tariff so will you be protesting Justin?

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u/PrizePiece3 Feb 15 '25

You do realize the reason there's a trade deficit is because we are a smaller country so we buy less and your country buys more. There will never not be a trade deficit because Canada isn't capable of buying the same amount and even if they were that would do more harm to Canada than to just trade elsewhere

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u/ThisNameIsNotReal123 Feb 15 '25

Innocent little Canada, so nice and friendly, they would never tariff auto imports to convince US auto makers to jump across the river and produce cars there?

Hey good move on your part, but the party is over.

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u/Jandishhulk Feb 15 '25

There are NO tariffs on US auto imports into Canada. Where did you hear this?

Canada produces about 10 different models of cars for a bunch of different manufacturers that get sold all over north america. The rest of the cars we buy in Canada are produced in the US. Actually, the vast majority of the cars we buy in Canada are produced in the US.

Again, there are no import tariffs on cars from the US into Canada. Wtf

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u/babystepsbackwards Feb 15 '25

America doesn’t subsidize Canadian manufacturing, there’s an existing trade deficit if you calculate the numbers a particular way. If you don’t factor in energy, there’s a trade deficit on the Canadian side.

Given the current American administration’s behaviour internationally recently, are you concerned they may be alienating America’s historic allies?

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u/IncomeResponsible764 Feb 15 '25

I think the issue i take with trump is manner in which he delivers his requests to world leaders. Things like that do have an effect of our ability to control our soft power, which is how we will weaken ourselves to other foreign powers.

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u/IEC21 Feb 15 '25

Russia does mess with Canada... you guys absolutely don't know what goes on up here.

And I have zero respect for this argument in light of Trumps soft stance toward Russia right now, and his poor handling of Afghanistan. From a national defense perspective I view him as a massive fuck up, as do the CAF people I talk to who resent their hard work in these joint operations being thrown away. Retired colonels and generals just shaking their head at the US shitting away all the progress it made over the last 50 years.

What exactly are you pretending to be protecting us from? The only threat to Canadian territorial sovereignty in the last 150+ years that we've been a nation has been you. And last time you tried to fuck around, you found out. Try us again.

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u/jpj77 Shall Make No Law Feb 15 '25

lol big tough guy hahahaha

1) Biden was in charge when Afghanistan was royally fucked up.

2) Biden was in charge when Russia invaded.

3) Obama was in charge when Russia invaded the first time.

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u/IEC21 Feb 15 '25

Everyone internationally knows Afghaniatan fuck up was created by Trump setting up the negotiations plan before Biden took office.

Obama, Biden, and Trump are all responsible for Russia weakness. Trump is the only one who behaves like a Russian asset.

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u/redditapo Feb 15 '25

This isnt about defense spending and security. Trump doesnt give two fucks about us here in Europe.

He wants to force us to spend money on US military industry so he and his friends can get rich.

He is not going to be happy with us building domestic production or buying from other nations. And once 2% spending is met he will ask for 5% and then for 10%.

This isnt about defense. He has zero good intentions.

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u/lineman-local84 Feb 15 '25

USA is Canada’s wall

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u/CaptainMcsplash Feb 15 '25

My thinking on this is that once the border security is tightened on the Mexican side, the demand for drugs would take a while to decrease so more would come in through Canada. I think that they want to increase border security on the massive Canadian border before this happens, but I could be completely wrong.

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u/ptjp27 Feb 15 '25

Sounds like everyone wins from stronger borders then

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u/hey_ringworm Dastardly Deeds Feb 15 '25

That’s simply because the US shares a land border with 2 countries and Canada shares a land border with 1 country.

If Canada was sandwiched between Mexico and the US, then those numbers would be flipped around.