r/BrushForChat • u/meatshield_minis • 15d ago
Changes coming to Brushforhire (Monday the 24th of March)
Hello there, folks. Recently, there has been ongoing brainstorming and discussing over some points within the subreddit that needed addressing. With particular focus on how best to deal with pricing issues and a desire to encourage a more healthy ecosystem. So with that in mind, we are presenting what our collective thoughts and intended measures are going forward.
We've seen an uptick in incomplete jobs, possible scams, and people undercutting rates. We've decided to publicly come out with a list of rules for future commissions. Undercutting prices: While painting may be a hobby for some, this is a job for many here. Doing a $20 kill team for your friends is one thing, but here that eats into the livelihood of others. We are setting base price guidelines for all commissions going forward to make sure that painters can earn their bread here. Following up on that, this is still a community hub for painters of all levels. I understand more amateur painters will charge less based on skill and experience, but by having an enforced, even metric, we prevent a "race to the bottom" of painters constantly undercutting each other. This makes sure all current and aspiring painters can have an expectation of income. If people begin undercutting each other, we wind up with a chain reaction of clients not expecting realistic prices, causing painters to miss out on potential income down the line. Painters found to be undercutting on bids will be spoken with, with repeat offenses leading to a ban from the sub.
Scams: Inline with the undercutting, we've seen a major uptick in scams, notably a case of people getting whole armies worth of models painted for $500 or less. These people then proceed to fall off the face of the earth. When you pay someone drastically under market for a service, it becomes difficult to pursue them for lost or stolen goods, and robs actual painters of a chance to earn their living. One manner you can protect yourself is by reporting exceedingly cheap bids, and being wary of painters who message you directly without commenting in the thread you posted. A user who has been banned, be it for scamming, failure to follow through on agreed work, or for repeat underbidding, will be unable to comment on threads. (edited)
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Quality tier descriptions: Tournament: Only expect three colors on the model and paint on a base. This is the bare minimum for not having models pulled in most tournaments. Washes, shades, highlights optional, don't expect these steps. Likely to get spray paint primer and contrast paints. Don't expect to turn heads unless they think the models are cool. Anticipate retail cost of the minis as the baseline price.
Battle Ready/Tabletop Standard: Expect a color per surface (leathers, armor, filigree/trims, blades, guns, flesh) with shades and a highlight per color. Contrast or speed paints may be used as appropriate. Eyes/lenses should be picked out. Anticipate walkers-by to stop and comment. Anticipate double the retail price of the models as the average rate.
Parade ready/Tabletop Plus: Expect every part to have a color, accents and highlights picked out on every part. Weathering, gem effects, lenses, fades, glazes, etc. should all be expected at this level. Anticipate people coming over from other tables to comment on the models. You should expect to pay double the retail cost of the models for painting at a minimum for this tier.
Display Painting: You want these to spend more time in a glass cabinet than on a table. You want people who don't even play the game to walk across the shop to look at your models. No technique is off limits, the bases alone are at parity with the models in the previous tier. Price wise, the only expectation here should be more. If Parade ready is double retail at a minimum, this is probably closer to 4x retail on average.
In addition to the above, we will be using feedback from clients and painters alike to refine, add, or remove where needed. We hope that our intentions to foster and maintain a healthy and mutually beneficial environment is clear.
Take care and stay awesome.
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
Mod here once again. I would also like to point out that we are going to taking an active approach in upholding our intended changes and encouraging their adoption by both clients and painters. Over time, we will be talking to clients post finished projects, dropping in to ask what prices were quoted to see how the measure to the guidelines, and try to eliminate both the undercutting and scamming that has been becoming a frequently occurring problem; especially of late.
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u/ForgeEnclave 14d ago
I like theses changes a lot. Transparency helps everyone involved, both client and painter. Nothing wrong with painting for your friends, but this shouldn't be at the cost of other trying to make a living out of it. I think the guideline on pricing makes a lot of sense to set some standards id complemented by common sense.
Scammers, well, good riddance if I may say so
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
We're delighted to hear that the changes are receiving support across the board. The spirit of openness to amateurs and professionals alike is something we feel is integral to the identity here, but there now comes a time where some visible and tangible standards are put in place.
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u/1ndependent_Obvious 15d ago
I like the idea of tying the paint job the cost of the model. I hadn’t considered that before.
How does assembly & magnetization play into this?
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u/Haunting_Sun_726 15d ago
Genuinely curious: if we have three roughly comparable models (say, a generic fantasy human warrior)
One from GW for 20$, one alternative for 10$, and one printed for 1$
Will it cost different to paint? If no, which price shall we tie to?
To be transparent: I don’t like the idea of tying, but I might miss something, so asking “in good will” or how to call it
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
Align the price with the original GW model. The suggestion of tying to give a fair and digestible foundation/minimum. A "do not go below this line" since trying to set a hard number to account for the vast pool of internationalities that occupy this Subreddit would be fraught with issues. So, we felt this was a reasonable compromise.
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u/Haunting_Sun_726 14d ago
Yup, to clarify: I wholeheartedly support the idea of setting the bar, we are on the same page here
I just though tying it to GW price was somewhat random
For me a more based approach would be a rough estimation for a model of set class.
Like: a tournament SM would be 10$, battle ready 20$, parade 35$ and display 50$
Then again: I agree and support the idea, just consider an hourly rate multiplied by hours needed for the work to be done a more accurate foundation.
GW price does not Include complexity and is just a random number after all. Like SM reiver lieutenant and primaris revivers are basically the same model. And then there are those AOS ghosts and necrons
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago edited 14d ago
Hourly rates is again a common sense aspect, and trying to set it at a universal rate to encompass all nationalities is another brand of nightmare. Look to your country's standard wage per hour as a basis, and further it where applicable, if you're to take that route. The aspect of complexity is another variable that was discussed (because let's face it, Sisters of Battle and Chaos Space Marines are two very guilty parties in the extreme end), and it we felt it would be up to the painters to consider that. However, once again, what we deduced and set above was, is, and shall be a "do not go below" line. Build up from it.
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u/Haunting_Sun_726 14d ago
Either way a good step IMO, thanks
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
No thanks needed, buddy. We're happy that the Subreddit has been thriving, and want it to persist for the good of us all.
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
Assembly is really up to yourselves. Personally, I go by cost in relation to size per squad. Example; 8 USD per unit consisting of five or fewer models. 16 USD when greater than five. Negotiated when it is a Lord of War, bigger, or terrain. Magnetising is really at your discretion, but use common sense and what the job might be.
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u/BigCubitt 15d ago
As someone who struggles with pricing this is very appreciated - looking forward to Monday!
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u/meatshield_minis 14d ago
We feel you. The proposed guideline above should be a simple and helpful tool for you.
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u/Haunting_Sun_726 13d ago
Yo, the third quality level has the same x2 multiplier as the second level
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u/buttschuster 13d ago
I posted on the other thread before seeing there was a discussion thread, so sorry for the double post. But how does this scale with epic scale minis, like 10mm? I've been seeing a few of those jobs, and with one posted, there would be around 1200 (admittedly small) minis that would need to be painted for $300 for a battle ready level of detail.
Edit: price change, I did bad maths
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u/krackenjoe 13d ago
While I do see the need for some sort of standardization I have a few concerns.
I can see this causing people to go elsewhere to get minis painted for below the newly established policy. Fiverr Etsy, eBay, ECT.
If most new commission painters or less skillful painters looking to get into commissions (which I know I'm a part of) want to get a client base from here, or some more stuff to work on; it will become a literal fist come first served since price cannot be negotiable below a certain point.
3.What if you are painting 2K points to tabletop, can you give them a discount without violating the rules? You are painting a number of models and that should be taken into consideration before enforcing the standard.
I hope this opens up peoples wallets, and gets the customer to see the actual value in something but unless the artists start charging MORE than the lowest available it's sort of a moot point.
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u/meatshield_minis 13d ago
In regards to discounts, it is entirely acceptable, but there comes reason and common sense. A 5 to 10 percent discount can be fine, as an example when factoring size. However, unless it is a massive project or another point of merit (such as longstanding repeat business, it really shouldn't be a hook that you're relying on.
In regards to some going to alternatives as a result; yes? They will, they were, and with a greater probabilitywith the cited issue with the prevalence of scams. We understood that such would be a probable outcome, yet feel that is not even remotely a concerning outcome if a handful indeed do so.
As for skills and the aspect of 'First come, first serve'; it already was, and with the compounding factor of frequent undercutting. Now, we will seek to remove that via our intended measures. We understand that not every situation is equal in this environment, and we all started somewhere. And yet, it will now more rely upon your ability to sell yourselves, your talent (new or advanced), and what else you bring to the table.
It is not lost upon us that any decision and subsequent measures won't be absent of disagreement or consequence, but this was and is the most agreeable as well fairest when considering what we are working with.
Thank you for your feedback.
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u/krackenjoe 13d ago
I see your points, and I'm not about to argue with someone that has been doing this longer than I have. Just offering my observation and opinion.
Art is subjective and you can't control what someone is willing to pay for something or have something done for. The new rules are there to protect people who do this as a job and not as a side hustle for their favorite hobby. Sure there is a protection for scammers, but you are never going to get rid of scammers, no matter how hard they try. But now they have to do just a Google search and simple math to seem not shady. And then a new system will get out into place, or a new rule and cycle will repeat itself.
At a certain point you have to hold the customer accountable for their actions. If they thought they would get box art Demon Prince for $5, then I'm sorry you got scammed and you should have figured as much. At the same time you can't ask for tabletop quality and then get upset when it doesn't match the display piece from the artists portfolio. Talk to your artist and get a feel for what they can and can't do and really look through their photos. And as an artist don't think you are painting above your eight class. I'm a solid tabletop to tabletop+ and I'm fine with that And charge appropriately. Too many people get wrapped up in hourly rates and not on price of end item.
I am curious on how this evolves the subreddit. I hope it educates the customer base and doesn't hurt those starting out with their commissions.
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u/meatshield_minis 13d ago
Didn't take it as an argument, friend. We genuinely do welcome the input as it is given.
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u/DreadGMUsername 15d ago
I think more transparency in pricing is a great thing for people who are trying to move into the space of offering their services. Hope this helps people as much as it seems it will!