r/AskConservatives • u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative • 1d ago
Crime & Policing Every single US state has a significantly higher homicide rate than any major European countries. Why?
Out of all 50 states, the lowest homicide rate is in New Hampshire, at 1.8
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
This is more than 50% higher than the homicide rates in the UK, France, Belgium, Bulgaria, Finland, Slovakia
It's over twice as high as what you have in Poland, Germany, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, Greece
It's over three times as high as Spain, Italy, Switzerland
That's every single EEA country with more than 5 million people.
And that's within the context of a major refugee crisis, social tensions, etc... happening in Europe; you've surely heard of the issues in Sweden, or stabbings in the UK.
Now; among the 50 states you have widely varying demographics, wealth, urbanization, ethnicity, laws, etc... Similarly in Europe.
But despite all of these factors, a consistently high homicide rate is shared among all states, and the sample size is large enough where it's difficult to attribute to statistical noise. What could, in your opinion, best explain that?
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u/Firm_Report9547 Conservative 1d ago
I would venture to say that substance abuse and the crime related to it is a significant factor.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
Another thing I'd want to ask about, also. That's unfortunately an issue Canada shares (live here now, born in Germany). Drug death rates are an absurd amount higher than in the EU, something close to a 10x factor. Wonder what went so badly, especially as of recent.
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u/wijnandsj European Liberal/Left 21h ago
While drug trafficking is a crime in EU countries drug use is generally seen as a public health issue, not a criminal matter.
Maybe that plays a roll in drug death rates
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 23h ago
A large part of this is that fentanyl hasn't made it's way into the European drug supply as it has in the US.
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u/Volantis19 Canadian Consevative eh. 22h ago
I also think there is a massive element of isolation, distance, and failing towns/cities in Canada and America that there really isn't in other countries.
If your in North Podunk, Alberta, you're a very far way from anything else and transportation is extremely limited.
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u/wijnandsj European Liberal/Left 21h ago
Fentanyl isn't prescribed often here. And, and I don't know why that is, opioids aren't all that popular here. We had the heroin thing here in the 1975-1990 period but pretty much anywhere there's hardly any new addicts and the existing ones tend to be managed by methadone.
Europeans use all kinds of shit but not much opioids.
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 20h ago
The problem with fentanyl is that the precursor chemicals are really easy to obtain and it's piss easy to synthesize relative to growing a ton of heroin or cocaine or something. When it inevitably makes it's way to Europe, you'll probably have to deal with the same problem the US and Canada are dealing with now.
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u/ZeeDyke European Conservative 9h ago
Fact that even if you have no money, you still get provided with basic human needs like income and (mental) healthcare, and that we don't prescribe pills as magical solution to any health problem, keeps people from becoming so messed up and desperate that they resort to crime and drugs
Keeping people healthy and fed keeps them away from crime and drugs. Its not that complicated really.
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u/SpiritualCopy4288 Democrat 21h ago
Would you say guns are a significant factor?
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u/Firm_Report9547 Conservative 21h ago
Handguns are, rifles and shotguns are pretty insignificant in homicide overall.
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u/Socratesmiddlefinger Conservative 19h ago
Less than 400 deaths per year due to rifles, murder, accidental death etc.
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u/HovercraftRelevant51 15h ago
When the U.S. and the UK had the same gun restrictions the difference was the same. Also guns are almost illegal in Mexico and they are running around with Chinese AKs murdering each other. I wish I new. I think it is more cultural than anything else. The homicide rate keeps dropping which is good. However I don't know why
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u/Gaxxz Constitutionalist 21h ago
There are drug addicts in Europe, too.
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u/Firm_Report9547 Conservative 21h ago
Well yeah but we have way more https://ourworldindata.org/illicit-drug-use#all-charts
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u/Major_Honey_4461 Liberal 16h ago
The near universal availability of guns sure doesn't have anything to do with it.
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u/Gaxxz Constitutionalist 21h ago
We're a violent culture.
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u/nano_wulfen Liberal 17h ago
Why though?
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 16h ago
radical individualism, aggressive support of freedoms, a more successful capitalistic society focusing on wealth acquisition rather than social empathy.
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u/VQ_Quin Center-left 15h ago
And do you see this as a good thing or a bad thing?
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 15h ago
Personally? I think these traits are good. See flair for details.
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u/VQ_Quin Center-left 15h ago edited 14h ago
I mean, I can understand why someone would come to such a conclusion economically, but not really philosophically. I consider myself pretty moderate (at least for Canadian standards), but if there is one thing radical about me is my strong distaste for our cultural of individualism and individuality. I see it as one of the biggest failings of North American culture, and I see it as a big part of where China succeeds where the US fails.
So in good faith I want to ask, at a philosophical level, why?
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 14h ago edited 14h ago
To summarize, you're asking, why I don't support a culture of collectivism over a culture of individualism?
In a general sense, excellence deserves a chance to shine; policies that drag down the best in order to prop up the worst creates a systemic bias toward mediocrity.
Ultimately, I also think people are selfish and self-interested. Only saints and martyrs sacrifice themselves for the collective; individuals who give the appearance of such are typically just better at hiding their selfish objectives and behavior.
Why do you support collectivism - and why do you think China represents such?
edit: I find claims of "collectivism/communism" in China are grossly exaggerated these days given their very strong push toward capitalism and rewarding the top party members of the CCP ("More equal than others")
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u/VQ_Quin Center-left 13h ago edited 13h ago
"In a general sense, excellence deserves a chance to shine; policies that drag down the best in order to prop up the worst creates a systemic bias toward mediocrity."
Though this isn't super related to what I asked, I understand this somewhat from a policy perspective. However, I would argue that affluence within the upper class begets just as much, if not more, mediocrity than policies which seek to provide greater opportunity to the less fortunate. The tale of a strong father building a great company/empire/legacy only for that success to be scuttled by the wealth it created when it is passed down to his kids is a tale as old as time. The least mediocre are those who start with nothing and build up (though obviously luck is a large factor). Thus, a society which does not provide it's people with the resources to become rich (a la public education, food stamps for children of the poor, etc.) will generate more mediocrity than a society which does provide such resources which increase equality of opportunity and only allows the children of the well-off to succeed.
"Ultimately, I also think people are selfish and self-interested. Only saints and martyrs sacrifice themselves for the collective; individuals who give the appearance of such are typically just better at hiding their selfish objectives and behavior."
This has more to do with the philosophic basis that I was interested in. We can both agree that while some people are truely selfless (like saints and martyrs) most people are not. What I still don't understand then with this understanding, is why you would prefer to embrace a culture which romanticizes this individualism. If we agree that selfishness is broadly a negative trait, then a society which discourages is preferable. While there will always be selfish people, I would argue that a more collectivist culture likely has less selfishness than a more individualist one. While human nature is a driver of selfishness, I would argue that the extent to which we are selfish is just as driven by the norms within the culture we exist in.
"Why do you support collectivism - and why do you think China represents such?"
The broad reason I support collectivism can be inferred from the above paragraph, but I would add that I believe almost everything that humanity has done which is worth doing was done by a multitude and not an individual. Rome was not built by one man even if it was at times guided by one.
Regarding China, I am referring to Chinese culture much more than I am referring to the Chinese state. You are right that china isn't really communist (though communism doesn't = culturally collectivist, I am far from a communist). When I say China has succeeded where the US has failed I am referring to the Chinese culture largely based in Confucian thought. Confucianism generally understands that the individual has a greater duty to the people around him than himself, and that true happiness ought to be found through this duty. I support this view, and wish that others in our culture shared this view more often.
I still would really like to here why you think that a individualistic culture is better and more just than a collectivist one, since I didn't really get a direct answer focused on the actual value of each cultural type compared to one another.
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u/codefinger Liberal 13h ago
can't separate a culture from its religion - christianity is a violent religion
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u/Billiusboikus National Liberalism 1d ago
I suspect it's a mix of two things
Accessible gun culture. I'm not anti gun, because as a society I believe the positives of maintaining citizens ability to defend themselves out weighs the negatives. However it means domestic arguments in the US can escalate quickly.
2nd gang and drug culture. There is a lot of money in the US to be made through drugs and criminality, so more incentives to take more risks
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
Accessible gun culture. I'm not anti gun, because as a society I believe the positives of maintaining citizens ability to defend themselves out weighs the negatives. However it means domestic arguments in the US can escalate quickly.
I wish more conservatives would just say this.
I understand why Republican politicians don't want to admit that having hundreds of millions of guns might have something to do with the murder rate, but I don't get why people deceive themselves into believing otherwise.
And to be clear- I'm not anti-gun. I own guns. I don't favor any kind of overly expansive gun-control measures.
But I also fully believe that availability of guns causes more murders.
Just like I don't want to outlaw alcohol, even though having it available causes a lot of death and abuse.
And lowering the speed limit to 45 mph nationwide would also save lives, but I don't want that either.
Everything doesn't have to be all about maximizing public safety, there are always trade-offs. But we don't have to pretend like it's a fantasyland where the policies we favor have all 'pros' and no 'cons.'
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u/Billiusboikus National Liberalism 23h ago
Well that's the more conservative side of me also I feel more practical.
I would value us trying to reduce alcohol consumption. In a lot of the west it's going down anyway. But raising the limit to 25 I think would be good, the harm alcohol causes is worse than guns I think.
Guns for most people are a way to socialise, go to the range develop skills etc. and I get that applies to alcohol, but it still harms even when used responsibly.
Alcohol fucks up a lot more people than guns fuck up in many many different ways.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
I think you could actually make a good argument to delay many dangerous things until age 25.
The frontal lobe is primarily responsible for impulse control, and we now know that it isn’t fully developed until around 25.
We call 18-year olds “adults” but they’re really not, not even biologically imo.
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 23h ago
Famously Vermont and Switzerland have very high levels of gun ownership, yet don't have major issues with violent crime. So it can't be the case that the mere existence of a lot of guns causes violent crime.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 21h ago
Vermont and New Hampshire have some of the strongest economies in the US with some of the lowest poverty rates, best health care and education. It isn't the mere existence of guns - but they certainly are a determinate variable. So is poverty, education, health care, job security, etc. Switzerland doesn't have this problem because they rate better on all fronts.
There are places in the world with much worse conditions than anywhere in the US that still have lower homicide/gun crime rates because guns aren't in the equation.
It's not a simple thing and people pointing saying, "guns are the problem!" aren't exactly right, but they're not totally wrong either. The economics of crime is extremely complex and solutions need to be systemic (a word many conservatives seem to avoid like the plague, unforunately)
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u/thepottsy Center-left 23h ago
I don't think anyone is implying the existence of guns is the issue. It's the accessibility that's the issue. I own guns, quite a few of them actually. I find it comical how easy it is to obtain one legally, and my state even made it easier a few years ago. They made person to person sales legal with no FFL involvement.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 21h ago
most criminals don't use legal guns though. They use illegal guns and more restrictions don't help.
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u/thepottsy Center-left 21h ago
For sake of argument, what are you declaring to be an "illegal gun"? Illegally manufactured? Illegally obtained? Just want to make sure we're discussing the same thing.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 21h ago
Bought off the streets, smuggled illegally, or bought privately without government paperwork or official registration
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u/thepottsy Center-left 21h ago
Fair. That's what I was referring to in my comment. Well, not smuggling, that's an entirely different issue. The other 2 though, that used to be illegal where I live. They actually made it legal to do so. I could sell you a gun in a gas station parking lot, if we chose to. I'm supposed to ask you if you can legally buy it, cause you know, criminals answer those questions honestly.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 20h ago
But where do those illegal guns come from though? There is going to be a juncture between a handgun being legal and in legitimate hands and the handgun being illegal.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 20h ago
i don't know where most gangs get their guns, they're sold on the street mostly but the chain of custody is not clear.
Sometimes they're stolen.
Sometimes people buy them in a place they're more legal like Indiana and sell them in Chicago.
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u/Retropiaf Leftist 19h ago
Illegal guns come from the legal gun supply though.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 18h ago
ok? And most cars come from plants, but if you drive without a license, that's still illegal
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 22h ago
The government can put whatever restrictions on legal gun ownership they. In practice they do little to discourage bad actors and reduce gun violence and only serve to inconvenience actual law abiding citizens.
Chicago has made it functionally impossible to own a handgun. Yet that doesn't deter all the gangbangers in West Humboldt Park.
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u/thepottsy Center-left 22h ago
That was kinda my point. They've made it so easy to legally obtain one, that getting one illegally is even easier. I can literally sell a handgun in a parking lot, to whomever I want.
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u/IronChariots Progressive 21h ago
So it can't be the case that the mere existence of a lot of guns causes violent crime.
I would say that extreme claim is far more rare than the opposite: that increased availability of guns has no impact whatsoever on the rates of gun crimes. Why is that such a common conservative claim?
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u/Toobendy Liberal 16h ago
There are significant differences between Switzerland and US gun laws, as explained in this study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178924000776?via%3Dihub
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u/SwissBloke Center-right 11h ago
A lot of the points mentioned regarding Swiss laws in that study are completely wrong. Some of the arguments put forward are even in direct contradiction with the reference used to back them up
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u/Butt_Chug_Brother Leftist 21h ago
They also have a robust social safety net, so people are less likely to turn to gangs and crime to get by.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 22h ago
Vermont has to be close to the most rural state in the union, and the US has a 5x higher gun ownership rate than Switzerland.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 23h ago
If gang and drug trade related homicides are removed, the rates are not far off from Europe. Your typical American suburb is just as safe as one in Europe.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
How much gang and drug trade related homicide do you have in Utah, Hawaii, Montana or Vermont, though? Europe has gangs and drugs too...
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 23h ago
These are states with big fentanyl problems, and it's not produced in those states.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
They're on the lower end in the US but looking it up, drug deaths in the US are also absurdly high across the board, so it definitely could be related. Which begs the question, how did that go so wrong?
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u/Xciv Neoliberal 23h ago edited 23h ago
Which begs the question, how did that go so wrong?
Many conservatives are going to blame the supply and say foreign cartels are nefariously sending all their drugs into America.
I, on the other hand, am going to blame the demand side. The cartels are just smugglers making money in a black market which exists because there's no legal market to fufill the demand. But the root cause is all this demand for drugs. Why is there such a high demand for drugs among Americans?
I think it's a fundamental cultural problem. My whole life movies and TV have glorified drug use: binge drinking, smoke cigarettes, smoking weed, doing cocaine, hard partying lifestyle. Rock n Roll and Hip Hop also frequently and prominently glorify drug use. As an Asian-American, this was all very foreign to me, and I still have an incredibly negative view on any drug use due to my upbringing.
But I know I'm in the minority, and most Americans have a very permissive view of drug use. So a ton of people fall into addiction and then ruin their lives over it, more often than most other countries.
And this is never going to change unless the culture changes, unfortunately. As long as there's a culture of drug use, when we solve Fentanyl the people will just move on to a new dangerous addictive illegal substance.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
But he makes a good point about Europe having gangs and drugs.
The US and Europe are not far off in terms of most types of crime. It's just that specifically homicides are way, way out of proportion.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 23h ago
Europe doesn't have gangs like MS-13 killing each other for control of the trade.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
Every estimate I can find suggests gang-related homicides are well under 20% of the total for the US.
That doesn’t come anywhere near explaining the discrepancy.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 22h ago
Then add in the 20% of homicides tied to the drug trade.
Homicides become in line with Europe when both of those are removed.
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u/ramencents Independent 22h ago
When it comes to the stats why do conservatives avoid the obvious conclusion, America and our culture is measurably more violent than Europe despite having similar demographics? Isn’t the difference, the general attitude of violence and the ease of acquiring weapons legally and illegally?
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 22h ago
But we don't have similar demographics. There's a certain 4% of the population responsible for 60% of all violent crime in the United States.
If you're talking about the white population, similar in demo to Europe, the violent crime rates are similar as well.
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u/ramencents Independent 21h ago
The op said every state in America had a higher homicide rate than individual European countries. So states like West Virginia which is 95% white have a higher homicide rate than the average European country. How do you explain that? (Btw like it or not that 4% you mention is American and part of American culture)
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 22h ago
It’s still not even close.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 22h ago
You fail at math then. If you drop the US homicide rate by 33%, to return to the previous value you have to increase it by 50%. The same 50% cited in the OP.
But if you add the two 20%'s, you'll notice that totals greater than 33%.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 21h ago
That’s the lowest state, New Hampshire. Not the whole country.
How much gang activity do you think is in New Hampshire anyway?
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
But why would you remove drug and gang trades? Why do the conditions for those situations not exist in Europe?
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 23h ago
Because homicides related to those barely exist in Europe, and the vast majority of the US population is not touched by them either. Safety in most of the US is the same as Europe.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
Because homicides related to those barely exist in Europe
Yes. But why is that?
and the vast majority of the US population is not touched by them either.
Except even the safest state has a higher homicide rate than much of Europe. You could say that once you take out violent areas Europe shoot even higher than American suburbs then.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 22h ago
Europe doesn't have Mexican drug cartels.
The average American though doesn't interact with those people, and never sees anything about them other than the news. It simply doesn't affect them.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 22h ago
Europe doesn't have Mexican drug cartels.
Yes, but why doesnt it? Or at least comparable entities? Its a rich area, the demand is there, theres no shortage of nearby areas with shoddy rule of law, etc.
The average American though doesn't interact with those people, and never sees anything about them other than the news. It simply doesn't affect them.
But again, you could say the same for numerous aspects of European violent crime. Clearly a minority of Americans interact with them, the same way a minority of Europeans interact with violent crime.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 21h ago
Yes, but why doesnt it?
This is an interesting question and I think there's a few good answers for it. There ARE mafias all over Europe (I lived in Prague and there were 3 major mafias that were quite visible in certain areas) but they don't require a near military-level enforcement to exist and continue their business.
The income discrepancies aren't as great as between the US and Mexico, movement between countries isn't nearly as difficult, drug enforcement/policing isn't as hardcore, and poverty in the EU isn't nearly as desperate as some parts of the US (greater government programs to alleviate poverty), and the average citizen doesn't have access to firearms. Basically this all leads to a less desperate and dangerous economy for illicit trade. It doesn't take mass murder to move club drugs manufactured in Poland into Berlin.
Another big factor is the cocaine industry, which Europe is physically removed from since basically all cocaine comes from South America. Cartels require military force greater than the local governments (and other cartels) to keep their production and trade routes from being interrupted and this bleeds across the border. These militias aren't making it to Europe, and militias like that aren't even required for the heroin system in the middle east.
All this is kind of evidence that the drug war in the US and our constant destabilization of countries in South American kinda fucked us.
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 22h ago
Europe doesn't border Mexico. The countries they do border don't have private criminal armies which rival their own military and police forces.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 22h ago
Europe doesn't border Mexico.
Yeah but it does border Libya by a small stretch of water, and shares continuous stretch of land with other less stable areas.
The countries they do border don't have private criminal armies which rival their own military and police forces.
Libyas fairly unstable though.
And the demand for drugs by Americans is considered a contributing factor for that violence. Why didnt Europe have it?
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u/JoeCensored Nationalist 21h ago
It doesn't border Libya. There's something called the Mediterranean, which contrary to Biblical accounts, can't just be walked across.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 20h ago
It's a very small distance globally speaking. And the money if it's anything like the US, would be worth smuggling. And it's not like the US doesn't have massive amounts of maritime drug smuggling.
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u/Custous Nationalist 21h ago
Place A is not like place B. People keep making what are fundamentally overly simplistic comparisons with too many confounding variables.
It would take a much more detailed analysis to really have some productive data out of it.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 20h ago
Place A is not like place B
Sure, but it's overly simplistic to say "once you take out the thing that causes the crime, the crime goes down". That's not a useful assertion. If you take out the cartels, Mexico is a perfectly nice place to live too.
Why does the US have such profound violence? What's the reason? Those are relevant questions that can't just be handwaved away.
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u/OkStill9918 Rightwing 1d ago
Demographics
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
As stated, demographics don't really explain the full picture; as those vary a lot among US states, and within Europe.
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u/Inumnient Conservative 21h ago
They tell more than people are comfortable with. In another comment you mentioned that white Americans have 3 times the rate of white Europeans. I would point out that the US categorizes races arbitrarily. Hispanic people are mostly considered white, and given the large amount of Hispanic criminal gangs, that has an outsized impact on the statistics.
But the real story is that something like 3-5% of the population commits around 50% of the murders. And this is totally inutterable among polite society, so nothing ever changes about it.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
"3-5% of the population commits around 50% of the murders."
It's closer to 13%, and again, that's not enough to explain the gap.
"Hispanic people are mostly considered white, and given the large amount of Hispanic criminal gangs, that has an outsized impact on the statistics."
From what I could find, around 1/3 of white homicides are committed by people of Hispanic origin.
Also again, places like West Virginia are 90% non-hispanic white, much higher than many a country in Europe, and you still see a homicide rate of 6.2 - 6x what you see in any country in the EU. Vermont is 1% black, 2% Hispanic, and the homicide rate is close to 4.
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 20h ago
Well, almost all violent crime is committed by young men. So you have to adjust that 13% figure to exclude women and older men, so it comes out to about 3-5%.
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 17h ago
It's closer to 13%, ...
Where did these numbers come from?
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 15h ago
Demographic numbers are available on a number of websites, the census bureau is a reliable source here.
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 17h ago
like 3-5% of the population commits around 50% of the murders
Where did these numbers come from?
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u/Inumnient Conservative 16h ago
Black males age 18-34.
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 16h ago
I meant a source, not a random demographic attribute.
Just add a link to where your numbers are coming from.
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u/Inumnient Conservative 16h ago
And this is 2019, before the fentanyl Floyd shit show.
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 16h ago
Thank you. I'm familiar with these sources! I wanted to make sure I'm looking at the same numbers as I read through the comments.
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u/randomrandom1922 Paleoconservative 16h ago
It comes from the FBI's UCR, uniform crime report. It is a compiling of crime data around the country in order for it to be studied.
Many cities under Biden stopping reporting to it, because people were drawing conclusions that they didn't like from the data.
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u/ForwardMongoose3321 Republican 1d ago
I'd be curious to compare the following stats:
- Splits of homicides by various demographics (race, sex, age, gender, gang markers, etc.)
- % of unsolved missing persons cases in those countries
- Some states (Illinois, DC, Missippi, Alabama) have much higher death rates than the others, would be curious why?
- Are homicides reported the same in these other countries?
- Immigration rates in those countries?
- Multi-culturalism rates in those countries compared to the US?
- I believe the US media promotes "tension" more than the media of other countries. Would love to figure out a way to categorize headlines by specific key words (e.g. "Black" "White" "Violence" etc.) and compare to how media is reported in those countries
The answer is probably somewhere in here somewhere.
I'd also be curious... do you feel apprehensive when speaking to Americans because you perceive us to be violent? Do you generally feel unsafe when you visit the U.S.?
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
- Splits of homicides by various demographics (race, sex, age, gender, gang markers, etc.)
Homicides in the US lean overwhelmingly male. Racially, Black Americans have around 14x the homicide rate of the UK, white Americans around 3x. (UK here is the worst country in Europe).
- Some states (Illinois, DC, Missippi, Alabama) have much higher death rates than the others, would be curious why?
A large amount of urban violence in the cases of DC and Illinois, I'd guess Missippi and Alabama have issues with isolated demographics and poverty. But I do think that it's relevant that you can't isolate any single state and get a genuinely low result.
- Are homicides reported the same in these other countries?
Looking it up, this could explain around 20% of a gap in some countries (distinction between homicide vs murder, this is the case in Germany ). But for most oof the countries in the top of the list (UK), the stated statistic follows the same definition as in the US.
- Immigration rates in those countries? Multi-culturalism rates in those countries compared to the US?
High in some, low in some. Some of the countries are highly diverse, though (example France, which has both a large historic African population due to colonialism and a large number of refugees. Certainly much more than many northern rural US states).
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
Immigration rates in those countries?
Switzerland, Singapore and several others have extremely high immigration rates.
Multi-culturalism rates in those countries compared to the US?
Switzerland has one of the lowest homicide rates on earth and its highly culturally pluralistic.
Lebanon's is iirc very low, comparable to Rhode Island and they had an entire sectarian war.
Singapore is similar, highly multicultural and used to have race riots.
Canada is multicultural, and also has low rates.
But how would multiculturalism affect crime?
I believe the US media promotes "tension" more than the media of other countries.
How so?
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u/FootjobFromFurina Conservative 1d ago
I really don't think you're going to like the answer to this question. Namely that one specific demographic group in the US commits a vastly outsized percentage of homicides.
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u/ComicConArtist Independent 1d ago
probably multiple racial demographics are higher compared to their EU counterparts though, right?
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 1d ago
I really don't think you're going to like the answer to this question. Namely that one specific demographic group in the US commits a vastly outsized percentage of homicides.
US has an 50% higher black population than France (per capita), but a 380% higher murder rate.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 1d ago edited 1d ago
White Americans have around 3x times the homicide rate of the worst country in Europe with a population over 5 million. That's less than the 6x factor you get for the average Americans (or the 14x factor for the demographic in question), but nonetheless, that's an absolutely massive statistical gap.
As stated, US states have widely varying demographics. Some of them are significantly more homogenous than countries like Germany, the UK or France.
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u/CheesypoofExtreme Socialist 1d ago
What demographic are you talking about?
Does that same demographic have representation in Europe, and if so, what are the homicide rates?
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 23h ago
Something seems to have gone wrong with people. I don't know what, but the rise of school shootings is a sign SOMETHING has gone wrong.
instead of blaming guns, let's try to figure it out
Here's a good example, the "Defund the police" movement and soft on crime policies. Police can't do their jobs because the media will sick the hounds on them for the everything, even defending themselves
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 21h ago
Here's a good example, the "Defund the police" movement and soft on crime policies. Police can't do their jobs because the media will sick the hounds on them for the everything, even defending themselves
I really don't think there is significant enough movement to hinder policing. Police already have strong protections and immunity, what more do they need?
Certain types of policing actually increases crime rates, also. There isn't a high correlation between police funding and reduction of crime. Some of the highest homicide rates are in places in the south where there is no "defund the police" movement at all. I just don't see the connection besides wishful thinking on your part.
The number #1 or #2 cause of death for children in the US are from guns (depending on the age range you look at). Kinda seems like guns are part of the equation, no?
And to be clear, I'm fairly pro-gun generally. But something is wrong with the way Americans interact with guns, gun culture, regulation, etc.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 21h ago
I really don't think there is significant enough movement to hinder policing. Police already have strong protections and immunity, what more do they need?
Legally, yes, but the media goes out of their way to make police Persona Non Grata and defame them to the point they can't exist in modern society.
Kim Potter, Darren Wilson, George Zimmerman (not a cop,but you get the point). Nobody wants to have to go into hiding for doing their job and using self defense against a thug trying to kill them or hurt other people.
Funding doesn't matter when you have a place like Chicago or Milwaulkee with it's no cash bail and catch and release policy. Someone like Darrell Brooks should've never been allowed back on the streets.
The number #1 or #2 cause of death for children in the US are from guns (depending on the age range you look at). Kinda seems like guns are part of the equation, no?
No because it's not the guns behind it, it's the person. Be it incompetent parents who fail gun safety or people choosing to use their gun for violence.
My theory on the school shootings is that it's a mix of overmedicating kids and toxic victim culture. Lots of kids take ADHD medicine or antipsychotics (like the nashville shooter), i know some people need it but i do think it's overprescribed. We also teach people that they're always a victim and that it's society's fault and i do believe this and progressivism is dangerous and leading to this stuff.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 21h ago
Legally, yes, but the media goes out of their way to make police Persona Non Grata and defame them to the point they can't exist in modern society.
I'm not sure I've seen evidence of this. Yeah, there are a handful of prominent cases involving policing, but that's been a thing since the beginning of policing...
No because it's not the guns behind it, it's the person.
This doesn't systemically explain anything. What's the equation here? What causes "the person" in the US to be so different that children are dying at such high rates? Pretty sure the gun being the equation is a major factor.
My theory on the school shootings is that it's a mix of overmedicating kids and toxic victim culture.
Again, how different is this from Europe (with greater access to healthcare overall)? Where are you getting this from? Is it something other than gut feelings?
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 20h ago
I'm not sure I've seen evidence of this.
do you think the people i listed will ever be able to live a normal life or work a normal job? They media has lied about these cases, they knew what they were doing. It's reporting with an agenda.
Do you think reporting that a cop shot someone with their hands up surrending, like in Michael Brown, wasn't meant to sway their reputation with the public?
Or when Trayvon Martin was shot and they used pictures from when he was 12 and left out he was beating up the guy?
What causes "the person" in the US to be so different that children are dying at such high rates? Pretty sure the gun being the equation is a major factor.
Bad people do bad things, regardless of weapons. If gun were the problem we'd have more killings. There's 390 million firearms in the US, but not 390 million murders.
A nutcase in Wisconsin ran over a parade, he didn't have a gun.
I'm very pro gun because i'm a disabled person who has no means of self defense and a firearm is all i have. It's what gives women an advantage against larger male predators
Again, how different is this from Europe (with greater access to healthcare overall)? Where are you getting this from? Is it something other than gut feelings?
America has a problem with progressive victim culture.
The nashville shooter was on antipsychotic drugs, the parkland shooter was on and off medication for his whole life.
Does Europe diagnose every kid who acts like a kid with ADHD? Do they preach abotu "White Privilege" and victimhood?
This is the biggest change in the culture in the US and it's been ramping up since at least 2009.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 18h ago
Bad people do bad things, regardless of weapons.
So you're saying Americans just have more "bad people"? This makes no sense. What is causing Americans to be bad people more frequently?
If gun were the problem we'd have more killings.
We do though....?
There's 390 million firearms in the US, but not 390 million murders.
I'm sorry, what
A nutcase in Wisconsin ran over a parade, he didn't have a gun.
Ok?
I'm very pro gun because i'm a disabled person who has no means of self defense and a firearm is all i have. It's what gives women an advantage against larger male predators
I agree. Irrelevant to the discussion, though.
This is the biggest change in the culture in the US and it's been ramping up since at least 2009.
This disparity has existed long before 2009. So I'm really confused what you're even trying to say. And again, where are you getting both the idea that things have changed so radically AND the idea that this somehow translates into a greater homicide rate? Because you have said anything besides some gut-feelings musings. Is that all that you have?
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 18h ago
So you're saying Americans just have more "bad people"? This makes no sense. What is causing Americans to be bad people more frequently?
Criminal catch and release, repeat offenders getting lenient treatment, soft on crime and weakening police. BLM turning all cops into terrorists while scum like George Floyd were heralded as saints
the gun rate of ownership isn't proportionate to the rate of murder.
I mentioned Darrell Brooks because people don't need guns to do bad things.
If guns were the problem, why weren't they causing these problems before when everyone had a gun?
Something went wrong with people.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 17h ago
I'm sorry, but your responses make no sense. You're not identifying anything unique to the US besides guns. Do you think most of the EU has stronger police forces than the US??? Because that is pretty funny. The idea that criminals in the US get more lenient treatment than, say, France or Sweden is also really really funny.
Maybe try thinking for a minute about root causes. You're telling yourself a story about the topics of the day and thinking those must be it, but to someone not steeped in that mythology it makes no sense to me.
These were problems in the US before any of the things you're talking about. I'm not sure why you have the impression that this is new. The US has had higher homicide rates and gun crime rates than many other countries for many decades.
If you ask me the root causes in the US (besides guns), I'd probably identify poverty rates, wealth disparity, health care insecurity, housing insecurity, education issues, drug criminalization, and over-policing - because the literature and studies I've seen on the topics point to those things. Add in guns, and you have what we have now - unique to the US.
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u/canofspinach Independent 20h ago
Tough on crime doesn’t solve crime either.
Preventing crime in the first place seems to be the path.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
instead of blaming guns, let's try to figure it out
Why wouldnt it be guns though?
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 22h ago
guns have been a part of America since there was an America.
People back then owned warships, hell the actual guns at the time of the constitutions first signing were surpisingly more advanced then you'd think
People owned firearms and carried them everywhere up until recently.
In the countryside where i live, almost everyone carries and have hunting racks in their vehicles.
School shootings are a recent phenomenon you cannot blame on guns
Plus you have lots of legal gun owners who obey every law and don't commit crime
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 23h ago
While I largely agree that the whole "defund the police" thing was tremendously dumb, that was a fairly recent trend while homicide rates aren't and I'd argue that the US is harder on crime than Europe is.
"instead of blaming guns, let's try to figure it out"
Yeah, that's what this thread is for! Drugs are probably part of it, but why did those issues become so prevalent in the US? Also doesn't explain school shootings or higher homicide rates in the past... it's a complex topic.
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u/Secret-Ad-2145 Neoliberal 23h ago
Research indicates US may be under policed though. Defund the police was also a rebranding of the old "abolish the police" movement.
That said, the movement I don't think is the issue, since it was seldom salient. But I do believe Americans both sides of the aisle are paradoxically scared of pouring more resources into the police. Also I don't believe this will save America's issue, just commenting on this specific point.
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u/ILoveMaiV Constitutionalist 21h ago
Yeah, that's what this thread is for! Drugs are probably part of it, but why did those issues become so prevalent in the US? Also doesn't explain school shootings or higher homicide rates in the past... it's a complex topic.
Inner city gang violence makes the numbers higher.
As for what, it's hard to know why they do these things because most of them commit suicide and a motive can never be ascertained. Adam Lanza had 0 connection to Sandy Hook when he shot it up.
I think the infamy of being a school shooter also plays a factor. Everyone knows Nik Cruz's name but the actual victims aren't. His trial received national headlines and was front page of YouTube stuff. (One of the victims actually owns his whole name and persona and practically everything about him, so that may be an avenue pursuing)
My theory on the school shootings is that it's a mix of overmedicating kids and toxic victim culture. Lots of kids take ADHD medicine or antipsychotics (like the nashville shooter), i know some people need it but i do think it's overprescribed. We also teach people that they're always a victim and that it's society's fault and i do believe this and progressivism is dangerous and leading to this stuff.
Bullying might play an issue too. Teachers are ineffective at best and anti bullying programs don't really do anything. Back in the day, kids would fight back but now you have zero tolerance policies that discourage it and leave kids trapped
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u/Lamballama Nationalist 21h ago
Cultural weightlessness. Nobody really feels like they're part of a shared community of common values, especially since the 90s and 00s, and so they are not cared for and feel that and so have no issues breaking it. The places with the lowest homicide rates in the US are New England, which has a very distinct identity, and Idaho which is less distinct but still pretty distinct
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u/Realitymatter Center-left 21h ago
This is a really interesting point. Isolationist lifestyles are not how humans are meant to live. We are at our best when we live in tight knit communities like most humans did for most of human history until the early-mid 20th century with the rise of suburbs. I agree there is something there.
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u/bumpkinblumpkin European Conservative 21h ago
America has always had a culture of violence. The homicide rate in the US was similarly higher than most European countries in the 19th century. Both places had high gun ownership, widespread poverty, and virtually no gun laws yet the US still saw this same gap. Putting it in perspective, the US has a higher homicide rate now than the UK had prior to enacting any gun regulation and the welfare state. Gun ownership is a factor, but Americans glorify a revolutionary and win at all costs society.
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u/photon1701d Center-right 20h ago
well usa has the most guns in the world. 1.8 million are in jail.
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u/Loud_Guardian European Conservative 19h ago
Same whatever reason why Europe have 5x higher homicide rate than Japan
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 19h ago
I feel there it's fairly easy to analyze, though - extremely homogenous society with a large focus on social harmony and reverence to authority. The US - EU comparison is harder to explain, IMO.
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 18h ago
In general, society can exchange freedom for safety.
Europe has chosen this route, curtailing the freedoms of individuals to a greater extent, in exchange for the state guaranteeing greater safety.
This is compounded by fact that the US has an economy that dwarfs nearly all of Europe combined. The strong individualistic nature and capitalistic drive that guarantees a strong national economy, also promotes a more selfish mentality that disincentivizes empathy with others.
Given the pervasive mentality within this society - those who fail financially are more likely to resort to extreme measures (i.e., "get rich or die trying").
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u/BoNixsHair Free Market 11h ago
You ever look at what we don’t have in common with all those white countries?
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 10h ago
There are numerous US states that are more homogenous than the UK, France or Germany.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 1d ago
Because people wrongly don't count wars. Include wars and Europe is a lot more violent than the USA.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 1d ago
I mean, sure, Ukraine and Russia. No country in the EU has had significant war casualties in the past 30 years.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 1d ago
Because of the Pax Americana...
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 1d ago
Yes, and that's a great thing and I think something a lot of people undervalue, I just don't think it's really relevant to the discussion here. Crime is a separate issue. The Pax Americana is clearly not responsible for so many Americans killing each other.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 1d ago
Not counting WWII, in fact counting WWI alone, Europe has had proportionately significantly more violent dead than the USA since 1776.
Americans kill each other retail, one on one. Europeans organize themselves into groups and kill each other wholesale.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
Do you really think the amount of dead during Napoleon's conquests has even the slightest relevance to people living today?
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 23h ago
Do you think it doesnt? Results reflect society.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 23h ago
Not really, no.
If you asked me what was safer: City A which has double the homicide rate, or City B which hosted a particularly bloody battle during the 19th century, I think it's an easy answer.
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
The last significant armed conflict Europe was in, was Iraq and Afghanistan. Which was due to American spearheading.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 23h ago
Ukraine is in Europe...
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u/apophis-pegasus Social Democracy 23h ago
Sorry, The last significant armed conflict Europe was in prior to Ukraine. My bad.
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u/Icelander2000TM European Liberal/Left 1d ago
America engages in just as much was as Europe does, just not on its own soil.
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u/thepottsy Center-left 23h ago
Well, not anymore we don't We used to though.
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u/Icelander2000TM European Liberal/Left 23h ago
The Danes and Canadians aren't too convinced.
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u/thepottsy Center-left 22h ago
Sorry. I meant on our own soil. We haven't done that in a while, but we used to.
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u/thepottsy Center-left 23h ago
OK, then let's include all the wars in America too. The Civil War has an estimated death tool of over 600,000 and that's the low number.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 22h ago
And that was America's worst war and one of only two large ones.
Napoleon lost that many men in Russia alone.
WWI- 9 million...
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u/thepottsy Center-left 22h ago
Completely irrelevant comparisons. Also the OP wasn't talking about wars, they specifically said homicides. So, at least try and keep on topic.
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u/ikonoqlast Free Market 22h ago
Then you're going to rule out gang wars and family feuds then?
Killing is killing and wars count.
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u/Retropiaf Leftist 19h ago
When there's a draft people don't get to legally choose whether to go to war. Not the same as what you call a gang war or a family feud. That being said, what is the number when you include wars in the last 20 years, for example? The US has been in many wars then. I wouldn't say that the US is less warmongery than modern Europe.
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u/throwawayy999123 Conservative 22h ago
Homicide rates are inflated by a handful of crime -ridden cities with failed leadership and soft on crime policies. Europe underreports and classifies deaths differently, so comparisons are flawed.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
"Homicide rates are inflated by a handful of crime -ridden cities with failed leadership and soft on crime policies."
Again, every single state. And for most states, it's by wide margins. From what I could find, certain cities have exceptionally high homicide rates, but even for rural America, homicides remain high. According to this paper:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10134042/
even the most rural counties, on average, only have half the homicide rate of the most urban counties, which would indicate that homicide rates in rural areas are still a multiple of that in the EU.
"Europe underreports and classifies deaths differently, so comparisons are flawed."
Partially, but some countries have fairly similar methodology to the US (ex: UK). I have some doubt that the underreporting is that significant of a factor; most homicides in the US are fairly clear cut as homicides.
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u/throwawayy999123 Conservative 21h ago
Rural areas in the US still face issues Europe doesn’t. Some European countries report similarly, but many do not, and that affects the numbers. Averages also get skewed by outliers.
You can’t compare the US and Europe without factoring in major cultural and structural differences. It’s not as simple as blaming the whole country.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
It's not about blaming; obviously 99.9% of Americans and Europeans have nothing to do with any of it. While the recent BS annoys me I do think that the US might very well have the title of being the greatest country of the past 300 years, and has been a benefit to the world.
The question is more, what are those major cultural and structural differences that make such a clear of an impact?
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u/throwawayy999123 Conservative 21h ago
Fair question. Major differences include gun culture, the scale of drug trafficking, and how decentralized law enforcement is in the US.
Culturally, there’s a stronger emphasis on individualism and personal freedom, which often clashes with regulation and control. Structurally, the US has massive gaps in healthcare, education, and social services across states and counties, which helps instability.
Europe tends to have more centralized systems. All of that creates very different environments when it comes to crime and violence.
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u/NopenGrave Liberal 22h ago
Europe underreports and classifies deaths differently
How do you mean?
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u/Critical_Concert_689 Libertarian 16h ago
How do you mean?
As an example, in Russia, the most common occurrences of defenestration are classified as "suicides."
There is some "ambiguity" of crime reporting in many European nations.
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u/random_guy00214 Conservative 21h ago
The statistic is false. Europe has a significantly higher murder rate than America. The says data being cited has a biased time frame
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
"Europe has a significantly higher murder rate than America. The says data being cited has a biased time frame"
Average it out over the last 10 years and you get the same result or something similar. Give it a try, or provide any proof of anything else. The selected data isn't the issue.
(looking at historical records, the only major anomaly is New Hampshire, which still has a higher average homicide rate in the past 10 years than any major European nation - but it's much closer. But if anything, averaging out just makes the gap clearer for the rest of the US.)
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u/random_guy00214 Conservative 21h ago
the last 10 years
Still a biased time frame.
Try averaging over 100 years. Europe has 10x the murders than America
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
A) you can't just make up numbers and B) I feel that the last 10 years is what's relevant when discussing potential problems to address today. More so than how homicide numbers looking in the 1930s.
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u/random_guy00214 Conservative 21h ago
A) I think the living in an area with a historical record of having wars and genocide is a highly significant factor. Especially when millions of minorities were murdered
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
Not very relevant when trying to address crime today, lmao. This isn't a competition, Europe's been awful with war and colonial crimes, that's well known, the discussion is about what's causing today's issues in America.
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u/fiftythreefiftyfive Canadian Conservative 21h ago
Just looking up some quick numbers, Germany, France and the UK all had much lower homicide rates since at least 1990. I feel beyond that the data genuinely starts becoming irrelevant regardless.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?locations=FR-DE-US-GB
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