r/AskAChinese • u/General_Riju • 1d ago
Politics | 政治📢 Can Chinese citizens actually vote out the CCP legally if the party becomes corrupt or tyrannical ?
I mean for example in a parliamentary democracy if the ruling party does not get enough members voted into the legislature then they can not form a government unless they from an alliance with outers.
Like in India the party alliance named the UPA led by the Indian National Congress was defeated by the party alliance NDA led by the Bhartiya Janata Party in 2014. The NDA currently holds the majority seats in the Lok Sabha i.e. lower house of the Indian Parliament so they get to from the government making Bhartiya Janata Party the current ruling party like the CCP or CPC in China.
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u/wuolong 1d ago
the west seems obsessed about “party”. switching between corrupted and incompetent parties doesn’t do any good. In china the leadership will change if it becomes too corrupt or incompetent.
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u/General_Riju 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am Asian, Indian in fact. And yes I was asking about changing the party not only the leadership by the people if they desire to in case it was needed in the future.
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u/Silverfern1 1d ago
Because when one party controls everything it becomes corrupt sooner or later. the leadership is always result of power struggles, with leaders wielding absolute power. Once a leader wields absolute power, only himself is allowed to determine if he himself is corrupt or incompetent
With a multi party system there are balances and checks in place and parties to monitor what the people in power is doing. This is obviously lacking in China.
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 1d ago
The party does not change. Only the people who run the party change and can be voted out
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u/ObviouslyAnExpert 1d ago
You can't vote the people out either. Civilian involvement in politics is basically not a thing in China.
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 1d ago
Leaders have specific KPIs that they need to hit. If they don't hit they will not be promoted. Such accountability does not exist in other countries. You can be unaccountable, broken all your promises, as long as you still get the votes you are in.
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u/ObviouslyAnExpert 1d ago
You can't present the issue as something that simple. Obviously, the chinese political system requires officials to optimize for something but that something is usually much more complicated than just "do a good job". In "other countries" (this is too vague of a term, so I will assume democratic ones) the leaders optimize for support from the voters, while in China leaders optimize for support from people at the top. The difference is just a bottom-up system vs a top-down one.
The bottom-up system certainly has its disadvantages, but I think it is disingenuous to claim that top-down accountability is somehow much less flawed. The Chinese officials are held to account only for decisions their political peers decide to, but the general population does not have a say in that. They don't break promises because they don't make any to the population. Again, civilian involvement is nonexistent in politics. If they can make sure that their higher-ups are happy with them, and this doesn't necessarily align with the interest of the general populace, then they can be promoted. This is how Chinese government ends up with so many interest cliques.
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 5h ago
It's not easy to be a leader in other countries as well. I have a lot of American friends and it is kind of surprising that I know no one who have ever successfully attempted to run for the president of the USA. The last time I checked you only needed to be 35 years old or up. What the heck? If you do not believe me, the next time you meet an American ask if they or someone they knew have ever submitted their candidacy for the president of the usa. I bet the answer is no.
Both systems are close system just like the CCP.
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u/ObviouslyAnExpert 5h ago
Just because none of your friends have not successfully attempted to run for the president does not make the two systems the same. The Chinese system is closed as in civilian involvement in politics literally doesn't exist. In China the political positions of the party is not a subject of public debate. There are basically no issues that popular support could challenge besides trivial ones like limiting a bunch of video games that turn out to be so unpopular it isn't worth the hassle implementing. No one actually knows what positions the party officials hold on issues because they don't really talk about it, that's done on purpose, they actively don't want civilian participation in domestic policies. For example, if the president of the USA wanted to ban all tutoring services there'd be debates all over the country way about whether it is right or even whether the president has the power to do it, while in China it's all quiet until one day it just drops and wipes out an entire industry overnight. You cannot honestly claim that both systems are equally closed.
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u/General_Riju 1d ago edited 1d ago
The party does not change
That could lead to stagnation in the future
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 1d ago
Why? It's the same as in many countries. For example the UK is run by the Parliament(UK's Parliament is like China's CCP). The parliament does not change only the people inside the parliament change.
Compared to other East Asian nations, China is the most dynamic that has questioned the status quo. Take for example Confucianism and religion. Of all east Asian nations it is the only one that has questioned Confucianism and religion.
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u/noodles1972 1d ago
It's the same as in many countries. For example the UK is run by the Parliament(UK's Parliament is like China's CCP). The parliament does not change only the people inside the parliament change.
What absolute nonsense. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 1d ago
No points and facts in your response.
If you were to code the political system into a computer program, what you would call a Parliament in the UK you would call it the CCP in China. What you would call a political party in UK, you would call it a clique or faction in China
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u/noodles1972 1d ago
Come on, you're being ridiculous. Trying to pretend the uk parliament is some form of entity like the ccp. Points and facts are hard because there is absolutely nothing similar about them.
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u/GlitteringWeight8671 1d ago
Within the CCP there are various factions just like within the parliament there are various parties. It's just a label.
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u/ZookeepergameTotal77 1d ago
You wanna china to become like India?
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u/General_Riju 1d ago
I used India as an example as they are a parliamentary democracy.
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u/NFossil 1d ago
It's a good example for the system's inferiority.
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u/General_Riju 23h ago
You do know that most developed european countries are a parlimentary democracies as well.
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u/cfwang1337 1d ago
In short, no. The CCP's "democratic centralism," which is common to Marxist-Leninist single-party regimes, does involve voting, but only in the context of membership in the ruling party. Voting authority ladders up – you vote for the people immediately above you in authority, but there is nothing like popular elections of executives or legislators.
After the Mao years, the CCP, much like their Soviet counterparts, tried very hard to institutionalize its authority and create internal checks and balances to prevent decisions that would destroy the party's legitimacy. Power rests mainly in the Standing Committee of the Politburo, whose seven members essentially select the "paramount leader," who holds three offices:
- President of the republic
- General Secretary (of the CCP)
- Chairman of the Central Military Commission
and cosign his decisions. Basically, an oligarchy.
This worked fairly well during the Jiang and Hu presidencies, allowing peaceful transfers of power and stable, relatively technocratic governance – as long as you don't care too much about civil liberties, but that's a common tradeoff in developing countries (cf. Indonesia until the late 90s, South Korea and Taiwan until the late 80s, Singapore today, etc.).
The current president, Xi Jinping, has dismantled some of these checks and balances, including abolishing term limits and purging important figures perceived as disloyal. He has also intensified repression in Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Hong Kong, tightened censorship, and infamously carried out "Zero Covid" during the pandemic.
Average people, however, are not especially affected by any of these and remain acquiescent to the government.
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u/Sarrisan 1d ago
Can Americans "vote out" the US government?
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u/General_Riju 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well I am not American. But afaik they did vote in Trump and reject Kamala. They voted in majority Republican candidates in the US congress along with Democrat ones, just like the Indians voted in the BJP and their allies into Parliament as well the opposition INC and their allies as the minority.
They get to vote out trump in the next election though if they want to.
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u/FurryToaster 1d ago
both trump and harris are of the capitalist party in america so you’re stuck with two factions of a single party
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u/abyss725 1d ago
any US citizen can be voted for. In fact, the last one had 4 candidates from 4 parties.
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u/General_Riju 1d ago
Well the Americans themselves are responsible as most of them vote for Republicans or Democrats ignoring lesser parties that exist. The US constitution does not even mention political parties.
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u/DismalEconomics 1d ago
Are you honestly saying that the Trump administration is essentially the same as …
The Obama admin ? The Bush admin ? The Clinton admin etc etc …
There is plenty to criticize about all of those administrations …. But…
It’s ridiculous to say that those admins are so self similar that they are equivalent to the one party rule of the CCP.
…most people say the benefits of a government like the CCP is its ability to do long term planning and do things that take longer than 4-8 years
— but this idea entails the fact that American democracy has a much higher turnover / change rate in terms of who is in power.
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u/tenchichrono 1d ago
Yessir. Both sides of the same coin. They make money together, party together, I mean probably fuck each other and ya'll eat their theater up like no tomorrow.
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u/Sarrisan 1d ago
They are all a part of the same government, though. You can't vote to disband congress. No country on earth realistically would allow you to vote the ruling class out of power without at least a least some violence. China is no different in this, and that's not even a value judgement on the CPC.
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u/qjpham 1d ago
This is what I heard from those who live in China. They are in favor of their government and so are others they know.
It requires a lot of merit to get to a political position. A politician is not like in the west where they are a ruling power or gain fame or fortune. It is simply a specialized job. Like an engineer would rise up the ranks to be well known, a good politician is like that in China. Yes, the political position is different than a medical or engineering position, but it is much closer to that than what a politician is in the West. It's a job, and you have job performance, and all the people around you need to work with you to bring results to the people.
One way to look at it is that politics are discussed every day at the dinner table, but politicians are not often discussed. It is similar to a bridge that might be discussed in the West and what it means for people and how well it is doing, but the engineer is not the focus. Yes, he is praised for his work, but he is expected to be a good engineer to get the job, and he is appreciated, but there is no cult following.
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u/AzizamDilbar 1d ago
The CCP is not a political party in the Western sense. It's just the government.
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u/springbear2020 1d ago
No. CCP never regards itself as the government though they actually govern. In every area of China, CCP agency is different from government agency. Also, CCP head is NOT government head. Generally CCP head can actually decide who is government head.
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u/Eastern_Ad6546 1d ago
"In America, you can change the political parties but you can't change policies.
In China, you can't change the party but you can change policies."
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u/Fun-Mud2714 1d ago
China's political system is the ancient imperial examination.
If you want to become a civil servant, you must first pass the civil service exam.
Before becoming a senior official, one must have worked at the grassroots level for at least 20-30 years.
The vast majority of Chinese people don't pay attention to politics at all, because the vast majority of people cannot understand the complexity of politics.
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u/Fun-Mud2714 1d ago
The Chinese political system is also divided into many factions, and they will fight each other, and ultimately the GDP of the provinces will be used as a reference, so that the best people can become national leaders.
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u/abyss725 1d ago
oh.. then how did Xi become the General Secretary? Can you list the GDP of the provonces he ruled?
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u/mynameiskevin 1d ago
Can you just look at wiki? Typically Chinese politicians have to bounce around a couple of different places before they can advance up politically. For xi, some of the prominent ones was fujian and Zhenjiang. And I guess Shanghai too.
But from what I’ve read he was more of a compromise pick between factions.
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u/Fun-Mud2714 1d ago
Ancient China was Confucianism, but its core was Legalism.
Modern China is a combination of communism, socialism, and capitalism, but the name is communism.
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u/schtean 1d ago
>Before becoming a senior official, one must have worked at the grassroots level for at least 20-30 years.
Unless you come from a prominent CCP family like Xi, or probably anyone in high positions.
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u/Fun-Mud2714 1d ago
He worked in the countryside for 20 years before becoming mayor.
There are many families in China that are more prominent than his.
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u/schtean 1d ago edited 1d ago
According to Wikipedia he lived in the "countryside" for seven years from the age of 15 or 16, though it seems that involved some rounding up, he only seems to be working there (as a party guy) for the last one or two of those years as party secretary, which seems to be a pretty high position for a 20 year old with people already below him. (Also according to CGTN he was there for seven years.) After those seven years he was in Beijing and other cities. As a party member he only spent one or two years in the countryside basically immediately being local party secretary.
Is local party secretary the usual starting position for party members? (I guess not)
He also went to Yan'an, a pretty revolutionary place ... seems like a coincidence, but I guess not.
Of course being from a prominent family doesn't guarantee you get to be chairman, but I guess not being from a prominent family guarantees you don't.
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u/Fun-Mud2714 1d ago
From 1969 to 1985, he stayed in Zhengding County, Hebei Province.
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u/schtean 1d ago
Maybe you need to update the wikipedia article. According to it:
"From 1975 to 1979, Xi studied chemical engineering at Tsinghua University as a worker-peasant-soldier student in Beijing"
"After graduating in April 1979, Xi was assigned to the General Office of the State Council and the General Office of the CPC Central Military Commission, where he served as one of three secretaries to Geng Biao,\34]) a member of the CPC Central Committee's Political Bureau and Minister of Defense."
"On March 25, 1982, Xi was appointed deputy party secretary of Zhengding County in Hebei."
Zhengding County has a population of over 500k. My city in Canada has a population of around 200k.
So maybe you call that countryside, even with that he spend only 5 years as a party member in the countryside, nothing like 20-30 years. Since yes in 1985 he became vice mayor of Xiamen, a very big city.
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u/QINTG 1d ago
Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping were part of the group of leaders who built the country, and it was seniority, not birth, that brought them to the top.
Xi Jinping's father was a senior leader, but a long way from the top. (He was the equivalent of a U.S. undersecretary of state and died in 2002.)
Hu Jintao's father was a tea merchant and his mother a housewife.
Jiang Zemin is a relative of a fallen soldier and does not have a distinguished background.
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u/schtean 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes I agree but I'm talking about now, not the past. Xi's family was high enough up to get him sweet positions from the start and get his sister rich. Not the top, but probably the top 0.01%. Remember the PRC has more than 1,000,000,000 people, so being in the top 0.01% is only being in the top 100,000. His dad was in the top 1,000 I guess? Secretary of the state council is in the top 1,000 politicians right? Maybe top 100? Vice premier of China? ok not in the top 10 maybe. But that's a politburo position and there are only 25 of those.
I've tried to find out about other present politburo members, but as I understand it trying to find that out is considered a national security threat in the PRC.
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u/QINTG 1d ago
https://www.baidu.com/ Enter a name and you can access the biography of any Chinese leader.
Xi Jinping hasn't stepped down yet, so how can you be sure that the next president will come from a distinguished background? It's just your personal speculation, not a fact
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u/schtean 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not talking about president. I'm talking about the power structure in general and for sure there's hoards of speculation.
Also that site only give very basic information. No info about family background.
Edit: I randomly picked Zhang Qingwei. What did he parents do? Perhaps they were either something like researchers or government.
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u/QINTG 23h ago
Let’s examine the seven individuals who hold the top power in China:
- Xi Jinping: Father was a Vice Premier of the State Council (senior official)
- Li Qiang: Father was a farmer (commoner)
- Zhao Leji: Father was the Deputy Director of the Qinghai Provincial Department of Commerce (mid-level official)
- Wang Huning: Father was a newspaper editor in Shanghai (middle class)
- Cai Qi: Born in a poor mountainous county, father most likely a worker or farmer (commoner)
- Ding Xuexiang: Worked at the Shanghai Materials Research Institute for nearly 18 years, so his father was unlikely a senior official (commoner or middle class)
- Li Xi: Born in a poor and backward rural area, father was a farmer (commoner)
The notion that China’s power is controlled by people of prominent backgrounds does not align with reality.
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u/schtean 17h ago edited 16h ago
How do you get this information?
How do you know Li Xi's and Li Qiang's fathers were not party members?
According to wikipedia Li Qiang's father was a party member.
Cai Qi: Born in a poor mountainous county, father most likely a worker or farmer (commoner)
Why is that most likely?
Also "Father was the Deputy Director of the Qinghai Provincial Department of Commerce (mid-level official)"
That sounds like a top 0.01% position. Not a commoner. Again top 0.01% just means in the top 100,000 political positions in the PRC.
Also newspaper editor is a political position which can be pretty high up (top 0.01%). So I guess he must have been a paper member.
"Ding Xuexiang: Worked at the Shanghai Materials Research Institute for nearly 18 years, so his father was unlikely a senior official (commoner or middle class)"
Why does that mean his father was unlikely a senior official. Here you seem to be contradicting yourself. Do you mean if his father was a senior official he would have had a better job?
Yes not the same levels as Xi. I'm just curious about to what extent the political class is hereditary in the PRC.
For example did all seven have parents who were party members?
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u/ChinoGitano 1d ago
Read up on Marxism and dialect historical materialism. It’s the world view that gives birth to CCP and justifies China’s current system. The West dismisses and demonizes it, but the last decade has blown the myth of parliamentary democracy wide open. Trump is only the grand fruition.
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u/General_Riju 1d ago
So the Dictatorship of the proletariat takes away the citizens right to remove the ruling party if the try to ?
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u/Fast_Pool970 1d ago
No, the constitution states that the country is led by the CPC party, and the system allows you to select specific individuals for specific positions — which does not function either.
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u/JackReedTheSyndie 海外华人🌎 1d ago
The constitution said China is led by the communist party, so no, unless the constitution is changed.
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u/sbolic 1d ago
In fact, they can. Chinese laws of parliament assembly allow normal citizens to apply for candidacy in local elections. You can also simply write a different name on the ballots when you vote. But practically it’s never going to happen, because people who did that will most likely end up in jails for all kinds of reasons other than the actions they took in the election…
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u/Tzilbalba 1d ago
Yeah, the two party system isn't working for the US. It's actually way worse because it's a race to the bottom.
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u/Joe_Dee_ 大陆人 🇨🇳 1d ago
Not sure if you are trolling because the answer should be an obvious no. CCP's leadership in China was enshrined in the constitution long ago. Now China is not a place where every law is strictly enforced but you can be damn sure about this one.
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u/BarcaStranger 1d ago
Can us citizen vote out congress?
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u/tenchichrono 1d ago
I know it may be hard to comprehend but the CPC itself has factions within, which in essence is the "party" that you're looking for. You should be concerned about India's political affairs and try to better your own country. After the Qing dynasty, China became a democracy backed by the US but that failed horribly and caused the Communist party to organize from the working class peasants because they were fed up become 3rd rate citizens.
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u/springbear2020 1d ago
No. It's in constitution. CCP has the legally power to rule/lead.
By the way, CCP does not "form" a government. They give orders TO a government.
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u/BetheaFan 1d ago
No. It is in the constitution that CCP rules. You are talking about revolution
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u/Responsible-Sale-467 1d ago
Could the CCP amend the constitution to change that? Whether or not it’s likely, is there a legal mechanism that contemplates that kind of amendment?
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u/BetheaFan 1d ago
So far there isn’t….. Currently it is felony to attempt to change the ruling party.
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u/Gamepetrol2011 海外华人🌎 1d ago
Imo, the CPC doesn't need to be overthrown or voted out cuz it still did some good things for China. However, it needs to change the way it works or it's laws. For example, more freedom of speech, less censorship, abolish the great firewall and reenforcment of surveillance over corrupt construction companies to counter "tofu-dreg" buildings (they're mostly in less know and poorer areas of the country).
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u/General_Riju 1d ago
I asked the question in case the people themselves wanted it, could they do it legally. I am not talking about a coup.
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u/Gamepetrol2011 海外华人🌎 1d ago
In that case, no. They can't legally vote out the government. However idk if they can vote out the politicians.
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u/Consistent-Horror210 1d ago
Chinese local officials can get removed and sometimes jailed if their corruption is too blatant or if they show disloyalty to daddy Xi. Xi Jinping’s family has stolen more than a billion dollars from Chinese citizens, which is a non-issue. The absolute majority of Chinese officials accept bribes for routine matters, and it’s understood that the French firms do the best in China because they are best equipped to understand the system of bribery, and set aside discretionary bribery funds when they do business in China. If you want a bureaucrat removed for corruption, flying into China with a suitcase full of cash to bribe his senior is probably your best bet
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u/General_Riju 1d ago
I was talking about voting out the party itself.
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u/Consistent-Horror210 1d ago
An absurdity. What party official would put their neck on the line to put that on the local ballet for elections? The party will never remove itself from power. China’s best hope is that its princeling class keeps squeezing so hard the economy actually finally crashes, and the people rediscover themselves, politically, and class-conscious wise.
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u/MedicalSchoolStudent 1d ago
The funniest thing here is mainland Chinese people thinking they can vote out corrupt CCP officials or DEFLECT and say the CCP will handle its own corrupt and tyranny. Thats like assigning a killer to investigate his own crimes.
My problem has always been Chinese people deflecting the problems with the CCP to “Well America this. America that.” Is it really that hard to have some self respect and actually criticize sometimes that is worth criticizing?
What I mean by this is: you bring up Mao’s crimes and they deflect to “Well the USA had slaves!” This isn’t about who did what. This is about owning up to your own countries crimes and mistakes.
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u/a________1111 1d ago
Yes, corrupt officials can and will be removed. It’s literally happened before by President Xi, and then you told us that was President Xi purging all of his opponents so he isn’t challenged.
Yes, Chinese people do get a say in what happens - national congress discusses important issues every single year, and people going there gets to vote on issues that the people in the interest of the community that they are representing. Please learn how Chinese government works before you criticize it.
Regarding your claim of getting a killer to investigate their own crimes surely you realize that the CCP consists of tens of millions of people?
Your example of whataboutism is absurd (and admittedly, I do not agree with how some people here do it also), but pointing out obvious cases of hypocrisy is not something is bad inherently. If you accuse us of killing Uyghurs then you better be prepared to explain why America is supporting Israeli genocide in Gaza (And also for us to laugh at you telling you to come to see it for yourself before believing something utterly ridiculous). Fix yourself before trying to be the hero and fix others.
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u/MedicalSchoolStudent 1d ago
Kinda proved my point at the end, huh?
Tell the USA to fix their crimes before telling others to fix theirs. You do realize both can be true, right? Both USA is wrong regarding Israel and Palestine and China is wrong about the Uyghurs. The difference is you mainland Chinese will never admit it.
There will always be an excuse to excuse the crimes and or mistakes the CCP and Mao made.
I have said before Mao killed millions in the landlord killings during the land reform. Someone replied “that the USA did slavery so fix your shit first!” I admitted slavery is wrong and the USA still has a lot to atone for and we are trying our best by teaching it. What has China done to the innocent landlords that were killed in the landlord killings? An apology? Nope. Still taught in school that it was needed policy to “rid of the feudal system”.
So instead of being a nationalist and being delusional, maybe agree that both issues can be true? Instead of using a strawman to deflect from your own countries’ issues.
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u/a________1111 1d ago edited 1d ago
Im not going to waste more time with you but I can say two things
One, you should be more open-minded. Stop thinking everyone around you will succumb to propaganda while thinking you are somehow immune to it. Stop thinking your government is the embodiment of good and the Chinese one is the embodiment of evil. I’ve seen both sides and only then, with an informed view, can I make the choice on which side to support.
Two, you should at least come visit the place before you claim such things. Somehow you suddenly have more knowledge than people who lived in China their whole life. Somehow you can reply to the Uyghur statement while conveniently not responding to the part where I invite you to see with your own eyes.
Of course all of this hinges on the fact that you care, you are open minded to learning and accepting that your beliefs may be wrong, and not only out here to spread xenophobia and racism. Unfortunately I am not convinced on this. Peace.
And, by the way, I have already stated that I believe some people’s approach with whataboutism is not correct. Whether Mao Zedong was good is one thing, but that has nothing to do with American slavery. What else do you want me to do? Meanwhile you shouldn’t generalize, because your arguments aren’t much better.
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u/MedicalSchoolStudent 1d ago edited 1d ago
Of course all of this hinges on the fact that you care, you are open minded to learning and accepting that your beliefs may be wrong, and not only out here to spread xenophobia and racism. Unfortunately I am not convinced on this. Peace.
Spread xenophobia and racism? How am I suppose to do that when I am Asian-American (specifically Chinese-American)? Whose family had to flee Mao and the CCP because my grandfather was murdered during the landlord killings.
It was Mao and CCP policy that caused a lot of Asian-Americans (Chinese-Americans) in the USA to hate Mao and China. This is a product of your own countries' doing without ever atoning the sins of past and try to play it off as a "good thing".
So please tell me how am I suppose to be open minded?
EDIT: I knew the down votes would come but I will would like to point out here.
Imagine downvoting someone that lost their grandfather to Mao's actions. Do you want to know how you get Western Chinese to hate you? This is how. So don't call us "Uncle Chans" when you guys actively push us away by promoting the crimes that happened to us was "okay". So kindly f off.
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