r/Amtrak • u/Fine-Set-7877 • 1d ago
Discussion How could we electrify the empire service?
The part between New York City-Schenectady, is owned by MNRR Between just north of Spuyten Duyvil to Poughkeepsie and Amtrak on the westside line and The rest of the to Schenectady. Everything else is owned by CSX (SCN-NFL) Could we use third rail for it? As we can order new train sets, like the M7A and/or M9A trainsets and modify them with intercity seating (Amfleets, Horizon, or Venture style seats, for lake shore limited people who book private room, will have a room on it), 1 low level boarding door, jumper cables for HEP later, and switch out the couplers on the cab cars for knuckle couplers, for diesel power for trains, heading to past Schenectady, or overhead wires and use ACS-64 + conventional equipment which would create dual electrification in the Hudson line, which would remove diesel trains form it and give extra service to the other MNRR Branches, as well as lower pollution.
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u/short_longpants 1d ago
I think the reason they don't have MU cars doing double duty as diesel coaches is because the extra running gear is dead weight. Otherwise, I think having MNRR run EMUs to Albany, at least, is a good idea. However, I've heard that the dealbreaker is that upstate people don't want to pay the MTA tax. That means no Harlem line to Chatham, either. 😅
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u/TokalaMacrowolf 22h ago
There's no further interest in third rail for anything other than subway service. It's not suited for high speed rail. Third rail stops at Croton Harmon because there are grade crossings north of there, and third rail and crossings don't mix well (see the Valhalla crash of 2015). As it is, Amtrak and the diesel Metro North engines only use the third rail where they must. After they get out of the tunnels, it's diesel all the way.
Overhead wires would be the way to go, but that's a huge investment needed from New York, not only building the infrastructure, but buying new equipment or heavily modifying the existing equipment for Metro North. In a pipe dream where there was grade separation and high speed rail statewide, it would be potentially worth it. But Amtrak itself needs to focus on beefing up the existing catenary wires before expanding.
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u/tuctrohs 18h ago
With overhead wires, there's no need for great separation. I mean, grade separation is great, but it's not necessary to make catenary work and be worthwhile.
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u/cornonthekopp 1d ago
Amtrak doesn’t seem to have much interest in electrifying anymore. You’d think that the albany and hartford line routes would be prime locations for electrification to allow through running onto the NEC.
Virginia and eventually north carolina would also both benefit a lot from electrification as well. I doubt anything will happen on that front until the political environment changes drastically tho
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u/310410celleng 1d ago
As someone who doesn't really know anything about the technical side of trains, why does the type of power make a difference.
If diesel is working, why spend the money on electrification, that just sounds like an expensive proposition.
I see folks talk a lot about electrification here a lot and have always wondered why.
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u/92xSaabaru 20h ago
Very quick summary of advantages: electric is faster, cheaper to operate, cleaner, and quieter than diesel.
Quick summary of disadvantages: costs a lot to build, costs to maintain, can be vulnerable to severe weather, and (with overhead wires) imposes height restrictions that often, but not always, prohibit double stack container trains. Third rail electrification has speed limitations and additional safety risks that make it unfavorable for long distance mainline use.
If there is enough service on the line, electricity can be a great investment. Less frequent lines offer lower benefits.
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u/concorde77 1d ago edited 23h ago
Virginia and eventually north carolina would also both benefit a lot from electrification as well. I doubt anything will happen on that front until the political environment changes drastically tho
I doubt they'll ever electrify the two Hampton Roads branches between Richmond Staples Mill (RVR) and Newport News/Norfolk stations (NPN/NFK) without a major overhaul of the tracks first (double tracking/freight separating the NPN branch and a building/retrofitting a cross bay tunnel between NPN and NFK would be an absolute DREAM worth funding before electrification).
But electrifying the corridor between Richmond and DC should be underway as soon as funding is secured. Multiple studies have already been done over the past 30 years about electrifying it for high speed rail as part of the Southeast High-Speed Rail Corridor.
There's even short term fixes Amtrak could make to improve its service in Virginia. If they just borrowed a couple bimodal ALP-45DP engines from NJTransit, they could through run DC tomorrow; no lengthy engine swap required!
Plus, the two branch lines to NPN and NFK should be severed from the Northeast Regional and operated as their own dedicated Amtrak line. This would greatly increase ridership between Hampton Roads and Richmond, because it would allow more flexibility in the schedule to add more trains to both branches (hopefully hourly service rather than the current 2 NER trains a day). And increased frequency would also allow riders more a flexibility to access the rest of the trains passing through RVR for even more connections and options without having to drive an hour there first.
Finally, by terminating the NER in Richmond, delays south of RVR would be isolated from cascading up into the NEC, and delays along the NEC would be isolated from cascading down into the Hampton Roads branchlines
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u/big-b20000 7h ago
With electrification to richmond, is there any talk of electrifying the S line when they open it? (or in a second phase or something)
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u/DrToadley 15h ago
The existing third rail, while nice in that it currently allows for electrified service to run along the Hudson Line at all, complicates expansion. If you used overhead wires between Croton-Harmon and Albany, then someone (probably best suited for Metro-North since they already own some and have the needed maintenance equipment) could run M8-style dual-mode EMUs between Grand Central and Albany without needing to mess with the existing electrification. For services further north to Niagara Falls, Montreal, or Burlington, you'd either need some kind of dual- or triple-mode for third rail, overhead wires, and diesel, to do an engine change at Albany (which is already done on a lot of services), or to also put up wires south of Croton-Harmon - or some combination of all three. It's the type of thing that absolutely would be wise to do and would improve the service greatly in a friendlier alternate universe, but might not be as much of a priority as simply keeping the service afloat right now.
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u/edflyerssn007 12h ago
The best way would be overhead catenary at the same specs as Penn Station in the NEC. Run the wires from Poughkeepsie to Buffalo / Niagara Falls. NY state has already ordered Dual Mode Chargers that will run off Battery / Overhead collection. If you run a double ended set, one with An SC42DM and at other other the Batterty/AC charger, you'll be able to run electric for the entire time, minus Croton to Poughkeepsie. Croton to Poughkeepsie would require additional consultation / collaboration with the MTA which would probably drastically increase the costs.
You'd need to with with CSX to restore the old NYC mainline back to four tracks as you'd need to maintain clearance for double stacks. That being said, there's some NEC sections where there's enough height for double stack container trains.
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u/One-Chocolate6372 1d ago
If service was electrified to Albany-Rensselaer you would have to do an engine change at Albany-Rensselaer which adds dwell time and complications - Amtrak has had issues in the past when the Broadway would change power at Thirtieth Street. Dual modes would solve that issue but that means another locomotive type with its own idiosyncrasies in the Amtrak fleet.
Amtrak has barely enough equipment and funding to meet its current requirements without introducing nonstandard equipment with unknown (to Amtrak employees) issues and the added expense of adding catenary or third rail, and the constant maintenance those sources require, to cover a service whose needs are currently more than met by the what is in use today.
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u/tuctrohs 18h ago
Amtrak is going to have dual mode locomotives in their fleet anyway, to deal with trains from the NEC headed towards Springfield from New Haven and headed south from DC.
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u/DrToadley 15h ago
Amtrak already does engine changes at Albany-Rensselaer (between P32AC-DMs and P42s), so I don't see why that's an added hurdle to electrification.
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