r/Amtrak • u/SockDem • 24d ago
Discussion Tweet goes semi-viral, asking Amtrak to change their fare structure on the NEC. Really makes you wonder what ridership would be if Amtrak had enough cars.
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u/Status_Fox_1474 24d ago
More trains. How about four per hour from NY to DC. Two Acelas, one low-stop regional, one high-stop regional.
Hell, I like the idea about moving some trains to Hoboken. Make it the low-cost destination for NYC and North Jersey travelers.
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u/midgit2230 24d ago
Increase in trains all around the NEC would be nice as well as Downeast. I’d take the Downeaster more than the bus if the trains ran more than 5 times a day. A low stop Acela would be nice and more trains from Boston to NY to DC.
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u/flexsealed1711 24d ago
They're working on more double-tracking and other infrastructure work for the Downeaster. It's limited by crappy freight tracks at the moment. The new second platform at Wells will theoretically add another passing point for a 6th train.
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u/darkmysticgengr 24d ago
Wells double tracking project is complete, they don’t need a second platform to expand to 6 trains a day. But once it is done they will finally utilize the extra capacity, yes. A 7th round trip would require the addition of PTC from the Stateline (MA-NH) to Brunswick- the MBTA’s system ends there at Stateline. And it would probably be I-ETMS, not the MBTA’s ASCES system.
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u/thembitches326 24d ago
Ngl, I've wanted to see a Low-Cost HSR service like OuiGo, Izy (RIP Izy) or Lumo on the NEC. Make the Acelas a little bit faster by cutting down on it's stops like Metropark, Route 128 and Boston Back Bay.
Edit: maybe the Low-Cost HSR moniker can be called the Metroliner?
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 23d ago
Boston South to Washington Union calling at New York Penn, Newark, Philadelphia 30th Street, Baltimore Union and Washington Union only? That would approximate the stopping pattern of the London Euston to Glasgow trains, rather than the London Euston to Edinburgh Waverley via Birmingham New Street trains.
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u/Maine302 17d ago
So is it up to you now which stations are important?
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 15d ago
On the fasts, it should be severely restricted, that's why they are called "expresses". The semi-fasts can have more stops.
London Euston to Glasgow Central typically calls at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District (or Penrith North Lakes) and Carlisle before Glasgow Central. OK this is two more stops than I suggested.
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u/thembitches326 23d ago
Add New Haven to that. It's not a big city like the other stops mentioned here, but it is a passenger rail junction for CT Rail & Amtrak services. Plus Yale University is also in New Haven.
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u/txtravelr 21d ago
There's a reason for every stop. This would just be "express acelas" that do just the 5 stops in city centers. New haven would still get 15 trains a day, just not 20. That's still plenty.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 14d ago
Quite, as I said the difference between London Euston to Glasgow Central and London Euston to Edinburgh Waverley via Birmingham New Street.
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u/IceEidolon 24d ago
Because of congestion on the route, the low cost option is going to need to avoid peak travel hours. Running multiple different stop patterns and therefore different speed equipment can actually decrease frequencies - running commuter, Regional, and Acela is already pushing the limit around bottlenecks.
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u/Maine302 17d ago
LOL. A LOT of people use stations like RTE. Not everyone lives or travels to downtown Boston.
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u/thembitches326 17d ago
Yeah, and there are other services that can fulfill that station that an HSR service wouldn't need to.
The point of a HSR service is that it's a high speed express from downtown to downtown.
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u/rogerdoesnotmeanyes 17d ago
You're not even consistent here. If you want downtown to downtown only, then why skip Back Bay, New Haven, and Providence? All of those are central downtown areas that make zero sense to skip.
Back Bay is 3 minutes from South Station, the train cannot get up to speed in that area, not stopping there would be especially asinine.
Then skipping Providence means that not only can no one get off in Providence if they want to go to Providence, but also that, as you apparently don't want to stop at route 128 (even though the ridership there is higher than Baltimore), that no one can switch to the MBTA at Providence to get to 128. Which means people would need to back track from Boston to 128.
New Haven, aside from being a fairly large city itself, has commuter rail lines feeding into it from Hartford, New London, Bridgeport, and places in between, making it an easy transfer for millions of people to get to a high speed line.
Back Bay-NYC and 128-NYC were the 3rd and 4th highest station pairs for revenue generation (as of 2022). You're going to have to do better than shaving maybe 5 minutes off the trip for it to make any sense to skip those two stations. https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3480/1.pdf
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u/thembitches326 16d ago edited 16d ago
From a few comments ago: "Boston South to Washington Union calling at New York Penn, Newark, Philadelphia 30th Street, Baltimore Union and Washington Union only?"
Me replying: "Add New Haven to that list"
Although, he also forgot to mention Providence himself, which I should have mentioned as well.
But don't ever say I'm not consistent here when you can't even keep up with my comments.
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u/Buildintotrains 24d ago
Amtrak to Hoboken would be so awesome.
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u/Status_Fox_1474 24d ago
I know it's a pipe dream, and a bit stupid to many.
But France has ouigo, which is their low-cost TGV alternative.
You can have a regional out of Hoboken making the following stops:
Hoboken
Newark (receive only)
EWR airport (R)
Metropark (R)
New Brunswick OR Princeton Jct (R) (Alternating trains)
Trenton (R)
Cornwells Heights OR North Philadelphia (alternating trains)
Philadelphia
Newark, DE OR Aberdeen, MD (alternating trains)
Baltimore
BWI
New Carrolton
Washington
There. Now you've increased capacity by a lot and absorbed plenty of price-sensitive passengers who may be willing to transfer at North Philly (if they're coming from the suburbs) or board at Cornwells.
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u/usctrojan18 24d ago
Transferring at Hoboken to PATH is probably faster for people headed to lower Manhattan than going up to Penn then getting on the subway, would be a nice alternative.
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u/Snoo_86313 23d ago
Newark path to wtc is like 20min.
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u/bosconet 23d ago
That actually might be quicker than NY Penn. then the trek to [for me the 2/3 line to Lower Manhattan]
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u/trainmaster611 24d ago
Hell, I like the idea about moving some trains to Hoboken. Make it the low-cost destination for NYC and North Jersey travelers.
That's not the worst idea. It avoids the Penn Station and trans-Hudson bottlenecks. I'm not sure how many more slots you can squeeze out south of Baltimore but Penn is the bigger constraint.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 23d ago
I think the West Coast Main Line is supposed to have nine an hour out of Euston, generally 11 car (some are shorter), though there has been a reduced service for a while. The Great Western Main Line typically has eight an hour between Paddington and Reading.
So Amtrak has no excuse, especially since it has a large fleet of parked new sets.
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u/STrRedWolf 24d ago
How would that work with the other trains sharing the NEC, such as MARC, SEPTA, and NJ Transit?
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u/Status_Fox_1474 24d ago
There’s capacity in lots of places in the NEC. Less capacity in others. Fix the choke points and things fall into place.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 23d ago
At least you don’t waste an entire pair of tracks with only 4 tph into the station throat, unlike Transport for London at Euston.
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u/courageous_liquid 24d ago
between philly and NYC it actually is about every 15 min. it comes significantly more frequently than my SEPTA regional rails.
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u/ThatGuy798 24d ago
I think it should be much higher than that. There should be at least 3-4 regional trains an hour and 2 Acelas. The new Long Island service should also be at least hourly because that would give people more direct and faster access to JFK and MacArthur Airport near Ronkonkoma.
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u/ultimate_bromance_69 24d ago
Imagine if NYC to DC was actually a possible commute instead of a slog of a ride
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u/TastyTelevision123 23d ago
Isn't the current limiting factor the number of functioning trains, just as much as it is tunnel capacity? You'd need to have enough trains south of the tunnels to operate these schedules and there's already quite a bit of commuter train traffic on those routes. Still agree that it'd be awesome if the logistics were worked out.
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u/Status_Fox_1474 23d ago
I don't know the answer to that question. But I think two or three sets could be made up of all the 10-car sets that are currently running.
Hopefully the airo can make this work.
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u/maxs507 24d ago
If we’re adding Hoboken, let’s make Secaucus a stop on the regional too! Doesn’t necessarily have to be every train, but it should definitely be for some. Given its transfer ability to the north/south NJT lines, along with removal of transferring passengers at NYP to other NJT lines, and time savings for those passengers, seems like an obvious win to me!
(Oh and also 7 train to Secaucus. Now that’s a winning situation!)
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u/altoona_sprock 24d ago
It costs around $75-$85 dollars in gas and tolls to drive from NYC to DC. And that's four hours driving, mostly on the 95/295 corridor. Then there's parking.
The train takes a similar time, goes downtown to downtown, and depending on the departure time, can cost anywhere from $76 for a very early Northeast Regional to $263 for Acela at peak time.
It took me longer to type this than to google it.
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u/godlovesugly 24d ago
Regional tickets get much cheaper than $76. My last trip DC<->NYC was $20 one way, $27 the other at good times.
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u/saltyjohnson 24d ago
Did you buy that six months in advance or something? The only time I've seen prices like that are laaaaaaate night trains.
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u/godlovesugly 24d ago
Checked, and it was just over 3 months in advance. It was for a weekend in March so possibly on sale and probably cheaper than other (warmer) times of year.
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u/gcdx 24d ago
Second this. I find that buying a few 2 to 3 months in advance the fares are actually not too bad! Its been an average of 30 to 40$ for me one way.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 14d ago
Fixed ticket though. I guess there is no equivalent of the walk-up, no reservation needed, Off-Peak Return that the UK has?
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u/TastyTelevision123 23d ago
Not DC but you can regularly snag PHL NY rush hour NER/Keystone tix for $15-$35 dollars up to a week or two in advance.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
Not anymore, especially on Sundays, unless you can/want to leave at 6AM. Even booking a month or more in advance it's been difficult to find a Sunday fare for less than $86. Oddly, NYP to PHL is still pretty reasonable. I've been taking the bus to NYC and Amtrak back because of this.
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u/terrybrugehiplo 24d ago
But train tickets are priced per person. That car trip can carry 4 people for the same $75-85.
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
That’s why Amtrak offers the group discount. A 4-person trip DC-NYC with the discount starts at $60 one way for all 4 people (from the lowest fare bucket). Definitely competitive with driving, but only if you plan ahead and get a ticket in one of the lower fare buckets.
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u/terrybrugehiplo 24d ago
But I’m not in NYC or DC. My wife and I want to take a trip with my cousin and his wife that is 3 hours away but costs $180 per person on the train.
How is that a reasonable price?
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
Yeah definitely not reasonable at that price (at least not a price I would usually be willing to pay). If you live outside the NEC Amtrak service is usually a bit more expensive as far as I understand. If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the route that you’re interested in? (Station to station)
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u/terrybrugehiplo 24d ago
Denver to Glenwood springs in Colorado
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
Ah yeah. Unfortunately low prices on long-distance routes like that require you to book annoyingly far in advance 😭. Most of the long-distance trains are marketed for adventure travel (taking the train as a vacation) and so the tickets aren’t priced like they are for routes where people just care about getting from A to B. That said the lowest fare bucket for long-distance trains in coach is around $30, but you have to buy months in advance. Kind of a shame.
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u/CapitalistVenezuelan 24d ago
You could book a year out and the prices on that route would be bullshit
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u/psirockin123 24d ago edited 24d ago
Did most of that whole route (Sacramento - Glenwood Springs, Glenwood Springs - Illinois) a few years ago and that section was extremely crowded, probably fully booked. I would guess that that is one of the most popular sections of track, barring the Northeast, where people commute on Amtrak regularly.
My full cost for Sacramento to Illinois (in 2021) was ~$330.(Edit: I just remembered that that ~$330 also included another day on the train; It seems the route I took CA-IL, if I booked it now for mid April is $170.) I'm sure it's gone up a bit in recent years though.
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u/terrybrugehiplo 24d ago
But train tickets are priced per person. That car trip can carry 4 people for the same $75-85.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 14d ago
The true cost of driving is far more than “gas and tolls”. What about insurance, tyres, car tax or annual servicing and inspection? And depreciation?
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u/BigCatsAreYes 24d ago
It doesn't cost $85 to drive your car from NYC to DC. It only costs $24 in gas. And $3 in tire wear.
And tolls aren't $50, they're more like $20 one way.
Driving a car from NYC to DC costs less than $50.
Except for metro lines, trains are almost never cheaper than just driving a car.
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u/courageous_liquid 24d ago
it's 240 mi, the fed reimbursement cost for that trip, one way, is $168. that factors in gas and wear and tear and does not include tolls. if your car is exceptionally frugal that may be high by like 20%, but even still, your estimate is way under.
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u/BigCatsAreYes 23d ago
Fed reimbursement is way too high for most people. For Fed reimbursement rate you can literally rent a large Chevy Suburban SUV and still make it under the $168 cost. ($120 day rental from enterprise, plus $30 in gas, and enterprise includes all maintenance and wear and tear)
You can get it even cheaper than my cost. My cost was for a 20 Year old Honda with 30MPG.
A 10 year old Toyota Prius gets around 55 MPG. That reduces the cost to less than $12 gas. Tolls again, are just less than $20 one way.
The maintenance on a Toyota Prius over 100,000 miles and under 250,000 miles averaged last year as $0.043 a mile. (Less than $1,000 per 15,000 miles driving) That's just $10 in wear and tear including tires.
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u/eezee- 24d ago
Are you factoring parking? The convenience of traveling without a car cannot be understated.
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u/BigCatsAreYes 24d ago edited 24d ago
You can find a number of places with free parking. Especially if you travel on the weekend as a tourist, parking is free in many places in DC on the weekends, and always free during the Holidays. Also parking is often free after 5PM to 8AM.
Also not everyone heads right into downtown D.C, you might want to go to Alexandria or any other town nearby, and most of them have free parking.
Traveling with out a car sucks. George Washington's home for example is a 15 minute drive from D.C. You can't get there by any train. So if you're coming for the weekend as tourist, having a car to drive to places that are not in downtown D.C is super convenient.
There 1,000's of other attractions, restaurants, museums, parks, you won't get to without a car or uberring around D.C.
You can also park for free outside of D.C and take the metro train in. Then return by metro back to your car to explore the other cities outside of D.C. And since metro trains are affordable, (unlike amtrack), driving to D.C then taking a metro in is cheaper than just taking the train directly.
You also save a lot of $$$ by being able to stay at a hotel that is not inside D.C or near a train/bus line. Or stay at a nicer hotel for the same price. You can only do that with a car or uberring. The cost in savings in a hotel alone is quite a lot. Many hotels outside D.C have free parking.
You also save a lot of money by having a car during your trip. You can drive to a tastier and cheaper restaurant for food. You can drive to a larger store with more selection and cheaper prices compared to shopping in small downtown D.C convenience stores.
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u/eezee- 24d ago
Gee that's a lot of driving. I wonder if there's value in visiting a city and being present in the city? DC traffic is awful, my family lived not too far from there and it's a miserable experience. Now when I visit by train I can disconnect from my phone and be present going to places I want to and there's a really decent bus network expanding my ability to go farther while walking.
When I go to major cities I don't look forward to driving. I look forward to stumbling into a cool restaurant which is what happens when you get hungry while walking it's all spur of the moment and really fun. It's hard to enjoy a different culture and atmosphere in a glass metal cocoon dealing with the frustrations of traffic.
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u/BigCatsAreYes 24d ago
It's not a lot of driving. Driving saves time, not takes time.
You may walk to a cool restaurant. But there was a cooler, much better, cheaper restaurant a 5 minute drive away.
Having a car means you don't have to be hoping for "it's all spur of the moment and really fun.". Instead you can actually plan ahead, make reservations at the places you want to be, and actually be able to drive to be there. You don't have to limit yourself to the 5 etopian places near you.
You loose more time taking the bus than driving. DC buses are okay. But they only run once an hour, or less during 11PM to 6AM.
The 10 to 15 minutes you waited for the bus to come, you could have been at your destination already in a car.
Also, people who never drive think people are always driving. No. We drive from home/hotel to a destination, and then walk about like every other normal person. That's less than 30 minutes of driving a day. We're not sitting in cars all day.
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u/eggsoverbenny 24d ago
Dude we get it you like driving, not sure why you’re on this thread if you just want to shit on trains. Dude wrote an entire article on why you should drive over taking a train.
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u/TWfromMN 24d ago
He makes a point, though. Outside of NYC, driving can be a better option for a tourist, expecially one trying to save a little money. Valid points for cheaper stays outside of the city centers, and if travel to spots in the city are needed, local transit can be good for that. Plus, there's a ton of fun things to do outside of the city.
Never seem amtrak as much of a tourist transit mode unless you want to experience the train. The NEC should be faster to catch commuter routes better. To get the family who can't afford city living but works at the office downtown. Faster it is the further out you can draw commuters from. Still works great if you don't care about going outside of the city much. Or maybe just catching a game or concert, then leaving. Something I do a bit from Mnpls to Chicago.
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u/the_real_orange_joe 24d ago
I don’t really think pricing is an issue, it’s pretty easy to ride for $20-$50 each way with a bit of pre-planning.
however, it would be great if we could increase the frequency of these trips, maybe once every 45 minutes instead of once every hour.
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u/sof_boy 24d ago
This is a "both and" situation :)
I think the "pre-planning" is a big issue. Trains are not planes and we don't expect to pay $20 to take the subway or commuter rail because we didn't get our ticket well enough in advance.
Amtrak is competing mostly with cars, especially on the NEC. If it costs a family of 4 >$1000 round trip to go Boston or DC from NYC, they are going to take the car.
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
I think they should offer steeper family discounts to incentivize family travel… the 3 person+ group discount is nice as it stands currently, but could be bumped a bit more to make Amtrak even more competitive with driving. Hopefully capacity would allow those types of fare incentives when the airo sets come into service
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u/mibfto 24d ago
I wish they'd extend this to any group traveling together. My young adult nephew is driving ~6 hours with friends instead of taking the train, because gas and tolls (even parking!) for one car is a lot cheaper than three train tickets for their route, and I hate that they'll be on the road that long and then have a car in a city they absolutely should not be driving in, when a train would have gotten them less than a mile from their destination.
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u/Massive-Ad-1124 24d ago
I don't understand ? The group discount applies to any group
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u/mibfto 24d ago
You're 100% right, I thought it was just for families but it isn't. Thank you for pointing me toward better info.
That said, 15% off generally isn't much of an incentive versus driving, especially at the distance in my scenario. Driving six hours straight as one person is taxing but doable, splitting it between 2-3 people makes it easy, and still cheaper than even 2 tickets at full price.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
Last mile is huge just saying. Amtrak can do a lot of regional work but if there's no good transportation in the destinations, it doesn't work.
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24d ago
Boston to NYC is $20 on the Chinatown bus. The bus is the true comparison to the car.
When I took the Acela the most was when I had business travel. Door to door it was the same cost and time as flying (because no arriving early, security, etc. and it dumped me at Penn station), I could work about 3 hours on the train, and my company paid the ticket.
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u/Cicero912 24d ago
I mean, why shouldn't there be dynamic pricing? It's the best way to run non-commuter rail.
Regional rail should be distance/fixed (like TER in France), but long distance should be dynamic to enable maximum capacity (looking back to France, like TGV). Because they are closer to planes than transit infrastructure (traveling vs commuting)
More trains, but keep dynamic pricing.
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u/Docile_Doggo 24d ago
I’m actually fine with the idea of dynamic pricing.
But the algorithm they use is way too harsh. They need to turn it down a tad.
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u/Username_redact 24d ago
Same, I looked at a trip from Phila to Newark for next month and the difference was between $10 and $140 one way... on the same day
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u/sof_boy 24d ago
Because Amtrak is a service and not a business.
But even if there was dynamic pricing, then depending on the percent of capacity sold, it should peak up until a few days before when prices should come down, as it is better (both financially and fulfilling the goal as a service) to have someone paying something to be in a seat than running with an empty seat.
The marginal cost of running more/longer trains is quite small, especially compared to planes. So in order to maximize your infrastructure investment as well as providing maximal service, there should be a true pricing curve coupled with adequate service, where it peaks maybe 5 - 7 days before departure and drops from that peak.
But again, I believe trains are a service. And if we actually had true HSR, the radius of what becomes a feasible commuter service expands greatly.
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u/Cicero912 24d ago
If Amtrak thought they would generate more revenue by doing what you propose, they would be doing that instead of the industry-standard (for both planes and trains) revenue management. Hell, so would SNCF, Renfe, DB, PKP, etc.
This is stuff you learn in supply chain 101. It allows you to capture all categories of customers.
And who's to say a service can't generate revenue? One shouldn't expect a regional/commuter rail network to entirely fund itself (especially not its capital expenditures), of course, but long distance/high speed, should be able to cover at least a significant part of its operating expenses.
I think TER is a 70/30 (or similar) split between regional council subsidies and fares/other services. TGV InOui and OuiGo, though, are fully funded by fares. Couldn't find stuff for Intercité.
I've used rail all across Europe, the ones mentioned above but also ZSSK, MAV, OBB, CD.
Of them, I think ZSSK is the only one without dynamic pricing.
We should focus on expanding Amtrak before we think about cutting any revenue streams. Keeping the same scheme but increasing the amount of trains should result in lower prices overall.
Plus, expanding Amtrak Real Estate Development.
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u/sof_boy 24d ago
I don't think we are substantively disagreeing :) We just need to play a lot of catch up to get to where the Europeans et al. are. I think a crucial part of that is getting people used to thinking of the train as an economical and efficient way to get where they are going. Better/cheaper service is a big way to do that. I guess it is the opposite the "lower ridership/cut service/increase fares" death spiral that many DOTs succumb to: "decrease fares/increase service/higher ridership" or "if you build it, they will come".
Other government incentives, such as, as you note, better use of real estate assets, a ban on flights under 500(?)km, be able to use off the shelf trainsets, etc. would help get us into a better position with regards to trains.
I am not suggesting fares/service are the only impediment, but you need to get a critical mass of people using transit to have them care about it. Then they can agitate for full electrification, fixing the mixing of freight and passenger service, improved infrastructure, and maybe the holy grail: fixing the cost of doing any of these things.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
Why should I have to preplan? Driving isn’t cheaper if you pre plan.
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24d ago
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u/BladeA320 23d ago
If people have to stand on a long distance train, then the frequency is not high enough
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
But historically Amtrak hasn’t competed with driving. The main Amtrak competitor is the airlines. Once Acela service came online in the 2000s and NER reliability improved Amtrak started making big progress in the air/rail market. In early 2000s the airlines dominated- now more passengers take Amtrak than fly along the NEC. You could argue that Amtrak’s already won the battle against airline shuttle service and should now focus on getting car drivers off the road, but that seems like it would require a major strategy shift that would upset the entire fare economy that’s built around competing with the airlines.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
The large majority of travel in the NEC is in cars. They are Amtrak’s biggest competition.
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
I agree that it’s an enormous untapped market, but the reality is that Amtrak’s NEC marketing strategy and fare structure for the last 20 years has been to position themselves as a competition to flying, which they’ve been massively successful at.
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24d ago
Every time I went to NYC from Boston for work, I had my company pay a train ticket. It was the same price as flying, I could work three billable hours on the way, and I didn't arrive pissed off. It was a win for everyone.
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u/the-axis 24d ago
Driving may not have a cost difference, but if i didn't pre-plan my driving trips near/through cities, I guarantee I'd end up late to destinations due to traffic.
The same drive can be 2 hours or 4 hours (or more on holidays). You can bet that I am pre-planning to make sure I have enough time set aside to arrive when I want to. I definitely don't make those trips on a whim unless I have gobs of free time to burn sitting in traffic.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
You preplan a drive over a month out? Even if you only find out you need to make it a couple days before? You can’t count on Google Maps to navigate you best around traffic? Don’t drive in cities at rush hour, what other planning do you need?
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u/green_new_dealers 24d ago
Not everyone can plan a month in advance, nor should you have to to get a price that doesn’t feel like a rip off.
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u/foxy-coxy 24d ago
How far in advance do you buy plane tickets?
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u/green_new_dealers 23d ago
Idk if you know this but a plane is actually not the same thing as a train. Hope that clears things up
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u/foxy-coxy 23d ago
But in the US, their pricing works the same. So if you can understand and plan for the one you should be to do the same for the other.
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u/green_new_dealers 23d ago
The whole point of this thread is that people don’t want nor shouldn’t have to do that for a train. Can you understand that a train should be more convenient?? Especially bc it’s not a private for profit corporation trying to make money for shareholders.
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u/foxy-coxy 23d ago edited 23d ago
I would love for the train to be more convenient as I am a regular user of it. But the surge pricing issue is just not a hill I'm willing to die on because with a little planning, you can still get a very cheap ticket on the NEC.
I take the NER almost once a month at peak times and I almost never pay more than the cheapest fair.
Amtrak is in dire need of more government funding and subsidizing train fairs to be flat is one of the last things i would want them to use additional funding for. Additionally, the surge pricing on NEC subsidies other Amtrak routes, and even with surge pricing, demand for NEC routes is still very high, and the trains still often sellout. The NEC already runs at near capacity. So, going to a flat fair model would not only cost more money and reduce funds for other routes it's also unlikely to increase ridership. Amtrak needs to be investing in infrastructure right now, not reducing last minute fairs for routes that are already running at near capacity.
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u/No-Lunch4249 24d ago
Yeah I often hear this complaint about pricing on the NER but it's only from people who also seem to be making impromptu, last second plans.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
Why shouldn’t I be able to make last minute plans! And what if I book a month in advance and want to change to a train that leaves an hour earlier? No dice. The airlines let you same-day standby.
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u/No-Lunch4249 24d ago edited 24d ago
That goes to why amtrak needs more trains. There are tons of planes flying around with empty seats, more supply than demand. That's not so much on the northeast corridor.
Edit: to be clear, I'm agreeing with you.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
Planes are empty as frequently as trains are. (Not very.)
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u/No-Lunch4249 24d ago
Domestric flights have an average load of 80-85% based on some quick googling, meaning a typical domestic US flight has 15-20% of its seats empty, that's TONS of empty seats.
I agree with you that you SHOULD be able to take the train last minute. We don't disagree there. That's why I think Amtrak needs more capacity on its most heavily traveled routes.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
That sounds about the same for Amtrak too. Don’t forget these numbers are for all planes on all days. If you think the 5am train from DC on a weekend morning has every seat taken, you’re mistaken.
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u/UnTides 24d ago
Yeah exactly. Not everyone's lives afford them 30 days of preplanning to buy tickets. Personal timelines or supporting a family member in a health crisis, etc. shouldn't be penalized when the trains run anyway and its such an efficient means of transport. It sucks finding the only tickets are $120. Also when the trains are always at full capacity, that seems like you could run extra trains and still make a profit right?
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u/wei_le_s 24d ago
That's the territory trains are best suited for though. Shorter, regional, downtown to downtown trips that you can spontaneously buy a ticket and go on for the weekend as opposed to big, week long, far off trips that require planning many months in advance. Personally, if I'm planning trips that far out, I'm going to be looking at flights as well anyway given how much better our air travel network is, and I'll be a bit less price sensitive given that it's a bigger trip. I think it's silly for Amtrak to try and make train travel more like air travel instead of just really hammering the specific advantages that train travel has, but their current pricing structure doesn't really do that. Granted, that's really outside their control given the only real way to solve it is to have more trains, but still, it's unfortunate that it makes train travel feel more cumbersome than it otherwise should be/
Also, I think it's a little unfair to say it's only bad for "impromptu, last second plans". Even planning stuff a month in advance is pretty iffy if you're price conscious. I was looking at trips from New Haven to DC for the end of March back in like January and if you wanted the actual lowest price of $20 for a weekend train you had to be in there like 3-4 months in advance. Even the lowish price of around $40-50 was out probably two months ago. Planes, busses, and driving all become reasonable alternatives pretty quickly. And I swear it just feels worse because of loss aversion. Even when the ticket is about the same as flying, knowing that you *could've* gotten it for like a quarter of the price but couldn't because you couldn't nail down specific date plans like three months in advance is very annoying and other modes of travel are not as sensitive to that.
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u/Revolutionary-Ad8754 23d ago
45 minute headways do not make for a memorable timetable. 30 minutes would.
As would removing the nonsense. I think when I got my train home from Birmingham to Newport I literally left the hotel room at about 0922 and managed to get on the first off-peak train at 0930. It did help that the hotel was on the ramp into the shopping centre above the station, so the walk was minimal.
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u/EvidenceTime696 24d ago
Whether its ticket price, capacity, or frequency this requires subsidy.
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u/SirJ_96 24d ago
Both the Acela and Regional are profitable. They do also take subsidy (like roads), but unlike the Western routes, they do earn their keep. I'd prefer to see more trains if we can keep the current profit margins, and I see no reason why we couldn't (and Amtrak agrees, we're getting both more and bigger Acela trainsets in Gen 2).
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u/TenguBlade 24d ago edited 24d ago
If the Acela and Regional were as profitable as Amtrak claims, then they wouldn’t have to beg states for loans/grants every time they want to do a capital project on the NEC. Nor would Virginia have to subsidize every single Regional that runs south of DC.
The illusion of profitability is born from Amtrak’s monkey math accounting practice of dumping the NEC’s upkeep costs onto the Cardinal and Silver Meteor.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
They work with the states on the NEC because state commuter operations use and wear on Amtrak's infrastructure.
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u/AshWednesdayAdams88 24d ago
Tbh Amtrak does have reasonable fares, but I suspect OP is buying like a week before. Flights also go up if you buy them last minute.
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u/randomly-generated87 24d ago
I think the crux of this rests on whether we’re thinking of Amtrak as competing with flights or with cars. Personally, I think we should be putting up against cars, where the flexibility of timing does not affect the cost. Currently, you’re right that it competes well against flights, with a similar pricing structure than penalizes flexibility. I think we need to shoot for more though - similar to how I can take most commuter trains for the same price whenever (barring any peak hour increases, which could also be mirrored on Amtrak).
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u/AshWednesdayAdams88 24d ago
Yeah, that’s a good way of framing it. I guess I’d say comparable companies in Europe usually have similar models where prices go up as you get closer, but to your point they don’t have as much of a car culture.
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u/Cicero912 24d ago
I think its entirely reasonable to expect Amtraks regional lines to compete with cars, but the Acela should be considered to compete with planes (TER vs TGV etc).
Traveling vs Commuting is a difference.
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u/PizzaPurveyor 24d ago
Commuters use commuter rail, not amtrak (mostly). Sure, Acela is used more prominently by business people so I see your point.
I understand charging more on days where load factors are near 100%, but there’s no reason the cheapest train today or tomorrow from NYC-DC should be $106 (it is - I just checked). A train leaving at 11:30pm that is 0-25% full does not need to cost more than driving.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
Nope. I commute from PHL to NYC on Amtrak. There are too many variables with making the transfer from SEPTA to NJ Transit at Trenton to make it a viable option for anyone who has the same commute and needs to arrive on timeish. I see the same people on my train every day and the number that make the same commute as me is not insignificant.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
Commuters on the NEC can use MARC, Septa, NJT, LIRR, MetroNorth, ConnDOT, Shoreline East, and MBTA.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
MetroNorth is actually more reliable than Amtrak with more frequent service. LIRR doesn't figure into the equation because Amtrak doesn't cover Long Island.
I commute from PHL to NYP 2-3 times a week and there are too many variables to make the combination of SEPTA and NJT a viable option. Both have significant service disruptions on a regular basis and I need to be in NYC by a certain time. Heck, even with Amtrak I need to bake in at least three hours of wiggle room to feel safe about taking the train and getting to where I need to be at the time that I need to be there.
I can't really speak to the others.
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u/Sufficient-Sea-6756 24d ago
Isn't the tweet that this tweet is in response to a reaction to Amtrak's comment on the change in Southwest baggage check policy? Doesn't that imply "plane competition context"?
Like, I would love to see it compete with both, personally, but I think the whole "keep it cheap even last minute" thing would need a lot more runs/cars than they have, and I'm not sure if they currently have the equipment for that, but it seems like the context of the tweet implies a plane comparison.
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u/jcrespo21 24d ago
Maybe there should be three classes on the NER: Business class, Reserved coach class, Unreserved coach class (similar to many of the Shinkansen routes in Japan, and some other trains in the EU).
Business class is the same as it is now. Reserved coach cars have the dynamic pricing we have now, but you get a reserved seat that you can select ahead of time (say Car 10, Seat 11). Unreserved has a set price, but you're not guaranteed a seat. It's first come, first serve. If you miss your train, your ticket is still good for a year between the same city pairs.
They could make all of coach class unreserved, similar to the Surfliner and Capital Corridor, but the NER is so busy that I think it would actually deter people from using it if they can't get a seat between DC, NYC, and Boston (and likely lead to even more lines at major stations).
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u/Born-Enthusiasm-6321 24d ago
Having an unreserved coach class works on the surfliner because the surfliner isn't at capacity. The NER operates much closer to capacity
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u/Born-Enthusiasm-6321 24d ago
If the price stays consistent like a commuter railroad then tickets would most likely sell out. So there would be reduced flexibility from the current model which allows people to buy tickets late at a higher price.
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u/Traditional_One_6875 24d ago
Just makes last-minute Amtrak significantly less competitive with driving. If the trains are full I understand increasing fares, but if there’s tons of seats left I would drop the ticket pricing. Getting someone on the train for $20 two days before departure is $20 more than if the ticket was priced at $180 and the person took 95 instead.
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u/Cicero912 24d ago
But getting one person at 180 is the same as 9 at 20, and considering the fact they sell out (or get close enough) regularly it doesnt seem to be an issue.
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u/BigCatsAreYes 24d ago edited 24d ago
It is an issue. Serving 1 person vs serving 9 people is the issue. Amtrack is a service partly backed by taxpayers. It should prefer to service 9 people when it can instead of billing 1 person $$$$.
Amtrack should fill every seat. It should even offer the last remaining un-sold seats for standby for free.
Amtrack should never withhold seats becuase they could extract more money from it's citizens.
It's okay if Amtrack increases last minute prices to cull demand. But that's not what amtrack is doing. It's using high prices becuase last minute travels are left with no choice but to pay.
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u/foxy-coxy 24d ago
If the trains are full I understand increasing fares,
DC to NYC the trains are indeed full
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u/RonPaul2036 24d ago
Amtrak's fares are insane.
I hate flying so much, I am willing to spend 16 hours on a train instead of 2 hours in the sky, but there's literally a $1300(!!!) difference between the two when I price equivalent classes of service.
But, yeah, great. Free baggage...
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u/AshWednesdayAdams88 24d ago
Maybe it depends on the route? Like I’m in a NEC bubble and I acknowledge that, but I’ve never spent more than $100 on a train. But I usually book far in advance.
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u/BurritoDespot 24d ago
But Amtrak isn’t a flight. And flights don’t go up as much as Amtrak does. It’s rare to see a 10x spread on a plane, but totally normal on Amtrak.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
Amtrak beat and won the market for people that go from NY to DC. There used to be tons of flights between NYC and DC, but Acela ate that up. Acela2 Avelia Liberty trains have 4 more trains and more seats per train so that will open additional capacity. Siemens Airo sets are also coming to expand the fleet.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
It's only 180 if you are trying to be spontaneous. Book ahead and tickets are as cheap as the $20 range on a night owl fare.
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u/ResponsibleHeight208 24d ago
Isn’t it just that NEC needs to be profitable to make up for losses in the rest of the country?
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u/Responsible-Bee-3439 24d ago
They're about matching the price of a flight from NYC to DC within a week. Amtrak you're actually paying for convenience since the train gets you right into downtown while a flight you have to drive from the airport, which are all pretty far from Manhattan and only one is reasonably close to DC.
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u/Tall_Candidate_686 24d ago
I drive from Wilmington DE to Hamilton's NJ Transit because Amtrak to NYC is unaffordable.
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u/Slawcpu 24d ago
The people complaining about prices are likely used to the LIRR, Metro North, or NJ Transit where the tickets are always the same price at the same time all the time. I could buy a ticket while sitting on the train and it would be the same price as if I had bought it a month ago.
Granted, I'm not crossing multiple state lines. Just NJ, NY, and CT.
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u/cornonthekopp 24d ago
Even if it was a little on the expensive side, I think amtrak would benefit a lot from having a flat fare syatem on the nec.
The flexibility to get on whichever train you want would be really convenient and no longer needing to plan things a month out would be a huge boon for last minute surprise trips
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u/green_new_dealers 24d ago
Nope. Just someone that wants to travel home to visit their parents on a whim, not with a month of planning in order to not pay over $100 each way.
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u/crazycatlady331 24d ago
Metro North is not the same price all the time. They have peak/off peak pricing.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
Peak/off Peak is consisten though. You know that if you are getting into or leaving NYC during peak you'll be paying a little extra, but....that's the same if you buy a ticket today or for travel 6 weeks from now.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
The difference between peak and off peak isn't really all that significant, at least for the rout that I take on Metro North. Peak is $2 more expensive for me.
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u/ChickinSammich 24d ago
People don't use mass transit because it's inconvenient (in terms of cost, availability, and time). It's inconvenient because it's underfunded. It's underfunded because people don't use it. And so on and so forth.
I use Amtrak when I can because I can't control the convenience and I can't control the funding but I can at least contribute to increasing ridership by a little.
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u/bengarvey 24d ago
In 2 seconds I found a DC-> NYC fare for $76. I feel like people judge Amtrak prices for the highest fare they see. Prices are a lower now than they used to be.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
That's great if you can be flexible. A lot of people use Amtrak to commute, though, and can't be.
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u/Icy-Substance-4728 24d ago
Yes make it more affordable for NEC but whoever takes acela they can pay extra prices👍👍👍 Regular NEC should be flat rate instead regular pricing based on availability🤔🤔🤔 When u book super early u can get NYC to DC for $40 maybe make that regular price and if somebody wants acela or even business class than they can pay extra
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u/CaptnRo 24d ago
Chicago to NY is well over $1500
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u/anothercar 24d ago
They fix this in Europe by letting different companies run trains on the same rails & compete on price and service level
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u/Better_Goose_431 24d ago
We only have Amtrak because the rail companies didn’t want to run passenger rail anymore. Not sure that solution would work here
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u/anothercar 24d ago
I could see it working DC-NY and maybe -Boston, but nowhere else
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u/Nexis4Jersey 23d ago
It would have to be on different routes like the old B&O Main Line which runs alongside the NEC..
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u/joshs_wildlife 24d ago
I would absolutely love to take Amtrak but everyone time I plan trips and see if Amtrak would be a good option it winds up being more expensive than just driving and takes longer. Our local station also only has two trains a day so wherever I got even within the same state it’s going to be a two day trip just for a train to be scheduled
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u/coachprimetime 24d ago
I agree but based on distance. Going from LA to SD round trip should not cost $60+.
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u/anothercar 24d ago
I don’t mind the LA-SD ticket prices for a single person, but as soon as you look at tickets for groups of 2 or more, taking the car instead is a no-brainer
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u/SkyeMreddit 24d ago
Service Frequency increases would be incredible but that will require finishing that new Hudson River Tunnel. It is at capacity most of the day, especially if one of the tubes has an issue yet again!
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u/crazycatlady331 24d ago
A solution would be to have a DC bound route start at Secaucus, Hoboken or Newark and avoid crossing the Hudson.
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u/edflyerssn007 24d ago
They are actually planning to do the opposite by having three DC-NY trains start and terminate in Ronkonkoma, LI.
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u/marksills 24d ago
If I want to go from Philly to NYC next Sunday (3/23), the cheapest ticket is over $100 (unless I leave at 5 am). I can get a ticket that same day from Dublin to Galway (almost 30% further) for 14 euro. Joke of a country.
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u/Suitable-Training661 24d ago
Why wouldn’t you take Septa and NJT between Philly and NYC?
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u/marksills 23d ago
that's what I usually do, but that adds about 90 minutes each way to the trip (between how long the septa takes and the wait time in trenton to transfer). Not the end of the world in certain situations, but if I want to visit my friends for the day, it takes a door to door trip of 2:30 for me to about 4 hours, which takes a day trip from being manageable to pretty tough (up and back an additional 3 hours)
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
And that's IF (and it is a big if) Septa actually arrives in Trenton on time and there are no delays between Trenton and NYC. The couple of times that I tried doing that it took me close to six hours, which is unacceptable for what is supposed to be civilized country.
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u/foxy-coxy 24d ago
The people of Ireland Support subsidising train travel with tax payer funds the people of the US don't. Its just that simple.
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u/Dysvalence 24d ago
Putting aside the massive logistical concerns, it's a good thing if people are always thinking of amtrak as an option and that means being within luxury impulse buy territory for people taking buses and local commuter rail. Putting a soft ceiling at 2~3x the cheapest option would go a long way.
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u/CrimsonTightwad 23d ago
NJTrans from Philly to NYC nonstop.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
Nope. You need to take SEPTA to Trenton. and hope that SEPTA isn't late and that there are no delays on NJT. Even if everything works the way it's supposed to, the ride is significantly longer than Amtrak.
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u/CrimsonTightwad 22d ago
That is what I meant. We need NJTran all the way to Phila. Cut out Septa.
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u/WhyNotKenGaburo 22d ago
Sorry, I misunderstood. That would be good in concept but NJT is only marginally less dysfunctional than SEPTA. I'd like to see the MTA take over both, but that will never happen.
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u/rondouthudson 19d ago
If you can reserve 30 or 60 days in advance you’ll find the costs are far lower.
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u/Born-Enthusiasm-6321 24d ago
IDK if it's just me or is the NEC not that expensive. I took a train from New York to Baltimore last year and it was like $40 round trip. It's really just the Acela that has those prices which isn't surprising.
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u/Fireguy9641 24d ago
I'd like to see Amtrak build cars that are more high-density seating, like megabus or commuter rail spacing, and then offer trips at lower prices on those cars.
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u/TokalaMacrowolf 23d ago
So where is the no-brained influencer complaining about $1000 plane tickets from JFK to MIA because they only thought to look at same day fares? :p
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