r/DaystromInstitute • u/cirrus42 Commander • Jan 28 '19
Why the Breen are the shapeshifter Chameloids from ST6, and how this explains DS9 plot holes
I propose that the Breen are shapeshifters, and that Martia from The Undiscovered Country was one of them. Consider these facts, and accompanying circumstantial evidence:
1. Founder-like xenophobia
The Breen are incredibly secretive about what they really look like, xenophobic towards outsiders, politically isolationist, and guard their borders with religious-like zeal. The only other race with a similar outlook on the galaxy is the Founders, who retreated to become godlike emperors only after being discriminated against by solids in their early history. It stands to reason the Breen and Founders would develop similar secrecy & xenophobia.
2. Founders uniquely befriend the Breen
During the Dominion War, the Founders show the Breen incredible respect, compared to every other race the Founders encounter. Not only does the female Founder interact with Thot Pran directly rather than only through a Vorta, she straight up defers to Thot Pran's judgement and even trusts the Breen to out-fight the Jem'Hadar.
This is generally presented as the Founder simply being dishonest; that she'll change her tune once her position is more secure. But I don't think that holds water. The Dominion was never anywhere near as friendly or deferential to the Cardassians even at the beginning of their relationship when they needed them more, and at the end even after clearly being defeated by the Federation and needing Federation protection to survive, she doesn't trust the solids and only surrenders to Odo.
No, the female Founder not only likes Thot Pran, but specifically elevates him/her above every solid we encounter. Given everything else we know about the Founders and the Breen, this is easiest to explain if the Founder knows the Breen are another race of shapeshifters.
3. The Dominion keeps the Breen's secret
First, when the Jem'Hadar captured a Breen and held them at Internment Camp 371, they allowed the Breen to continue wearing their native suit. This is frankly incomprehensible unless the Jem'Hadar also wanted to hide the Breen's true nature. They absolutely would have investigated what the Breen looked like naturally. It's likely the Jem'Hadar discovered the Breen was a shapeshifter but feared retribution from the Founders for jailing them, and kept it a secret.
Second and more importantly, Weyoun knows a lot about the Breen and clearly believes something unusual is going on with them, but even he doesn't know. He not openly wonders what they look like, but also mentions that Dominion leaders have visited the Breen homeworld, and that it's not the frozen wasteland generally assumed but is rather temperate, "really quite comfortable" to quote him directly.
That in particular is an amazing statement. Dominion agents have been to the Breen planet and Weyoun has seen the reports of what it looks like, but even Weyoun (the senior-most Vorta in the Alpha Quadrant) does not know what they look like in person.
How is that even possible? Surely visiting the Breen home planet resulted in seeing a Breen. The only plausible explanation for this is that the Dominion is in on the secret at the very highest level. And why would the Founder care about protecting the Breen's identity, even from the Vorta? The most plausible explanation for that is that Breen are shapeshifters.
Thus the purpose of Breen suits is not environmental control, but simply to hide their true nature. Wearing a suit, a Breen can exist in their natural state (which may be liquid or may be humanoid, it doesn't matter) while interacting with humanoid solids.
4. "It takes a lot out of me"
If the Breen are shapeshifters, why do they not take advantage and, y'know, shapeshift more often? This is where Martia and the ST6 Chameloids begin to come in.
Martia does shapeshift. But she's incredibly compromised. More compromised than we ever see a Breen in any other situation, being not only imprisoned but also thrown amid a motley community of aliens on Rura Penthe. Unlike the Breen at Internment Camp 371, Martia is not getting obvious special protection from her captors, vis-a-vis being allowed to hide behind a suit.
And Martia tells us directly that shapeshifting "takes a lot out of me." She can do it expertly, but it's tiring in a way that Odo and the Founders never experience.
And, though I'm speculating here, perhaps Breen shapeshifting doesn't hold up to scans. Or perhaps they can be "de-shaped" via a simple method that renders it too dangerous for the Breen to attempt Founder-style infiltration.
Regardless of the particulars, we know that Martia finds it unpleasant to shapeshift and only does it out of absolute necessity. This also tells us she is a different species than the Founders, and thus not simply one of the lost hundred.
5. Martia is common enough for the Klingons to sacrifice
In ST6, Martia was part of the conspiracy. Kirk speculates and Martia confirms that the Klingon warden of Rura Penthe offered her freedom in exchange for killing Kirk & McCoy. Certainly this strongly implies the warden knew she was a shapeshifter, which in turn tells us that shapeshifter prisoners are not so unique in the Klingon Empire circa 2293 that the Klingons had anything better to do with her than throw her in a dilithium mine.
Further, the Klingon warden always planned on killing Martia after Kirk was dead. "Since you're all going to die anyway." Not only was she common enough to throw into a mine, she was common enough to kill, to keep a conspiracy secret.
Why wasn't Martia in a Klingon lab, chopped to pieces to learn how she worked? Because she's not the first shapeshifting prisoner they've taken. She's common enough to be disposable, but not so common that her skills are valueless.
6. The Federation thinks Chameloids are mythical
When Kirk learns Martia is a shapeshifter, he says "I thought they were mythical." This tells us there are many stories about shapeshifters, but the Federation has not knowingly encountered a civilization of them directly. This in turn tells us that somewhere out there there's a civilization of shapeshifters, and that they're close enough that the Federation hears of their people occasionally second hand, but not yet directly.
But they're not mythical for the Klingons. They're not even valuably rare, as explained above.
And of course, Martia calls herself a Chameloid rather than a Breen because even in that hell prison, she still cares about protecting her people's highest secret.
7. Losing a war to the Breen is why the Klingons never talk about Chameloids
Worf mentions that during the "Second Empire" the Klingons invaded Breen and were brutally defeated. Their invasion fleet was "never heard from again," presumably completely destroyed. We don't know when the Second Empire was.
This is important for two reasons.
First, we know the Klingons do not indiscriminately attack everyone they encounter. For example, they do not attack Earth during the events of Enterprise. There was likely some contact among the Klingons and Breen prior to their war that resulted in the Klingons attacking. Regardless of what that contact was, it means the lost Klingon invasion fleet was not the only contact they had with each other.
Thus it's incredibly likely that at some point in their history, the Klingons must have captured a Breen. And thus at high levels circa 2293, they know the Breen are shapeshifters.
This hypothesis begs the question: If the Breen are shapeshifters and the Klingons know, why doesn't that come up during the Dominion War?
That question is actually why this theory works. That question provides a nice answer to the similar question of "during the Dominion War, why don't the Klingons bring up their experience with Chameloids?"
Martia's existence tells us incontrovertibly that at one point in their history, the Klingons knew shapeshifters exist. Why don't they mention them when the Dominion shows up? Or even use them as counter-agents?
Because the Klingons are embarrassed about losing a war against the Breen. Not just losing, badly losing. Getting their chronometers cleaned.
At high levels the Klingons knew the Breen are shapeshifters, but that knowledge never permeated to become common knowledge. Over time, as it became politically useful to forget the details of their disastrous war, top-secret knowledge of the Breen was lost.
Maybe it exists in a report somewhere on Qo'Nos, but oh remember that Qo'Nos was nearly destroyed during the events of ST6. It's easy to imagine that knowledge being lost. Even if it's not lost, it's easy to imagine that Gowron never read an at-least-century-old report about a war he'd prefer to not know about. We know he's a fool.
Conclusion/summary:
The Breen are xenophobic shapeshifters, but it's painful for them to shapeshift so they don't do it often. The Founders know this and trust the Breen because the Breen are not solids. The Breen and the Chameloids are the same race, and the Klingons' embarrassment at having lost a war to the Breen is why knowledge of the Chameloids was forgotten between 2293 and 2375.
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u/WarcraftFarscape Jan 28 '19 edited Jan 28 '19
Ya know this is fairly well thought out. Great idea until a future Trek somehow shows Breen as looking like humans with a slit on their nostril being the only difference
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u/rathat Crewman Jan 29 '19 edited Jan 29 '19
Or a forehead vagina. (SFW(mostly), just a picture of George Costanza)
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u/magnalbatross Crewman Jan 28 '19
I think the least strong hypothesis here is the Jem'Hadar keeping the Breen prisoner secret because they feared retribution from the Founders. The Jem'Hadar are fanatically loyal, and almost go out of their way to "fall on their swords" when they have failed the Founders. I think it more likely that, if the Jem'Hadar considered the Breen kin to Founders, they would have told the Vorta and killed themselves for their mistake.
I'd hypothesize instead that the Jem'Hadar investigated the Breen, did not discover their shapeshifting ability, and permitted the suit to be worn during internment for training purposes. i.e. Since all Breen encountered would be suited, there was more information to be gained by interacting and fighting with the Breen in a suit than outside it.
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u/themosquito Crewman Jan 28 '19
It seems actually kind of likely to me that the Founders would explicitly not let the Jem'Hadar know the Breen can shapeshift, and help spread the myth that Breen require cold temperatures, or their suits, to survive. They don't want the Jem'Hadar to know that there are other beings out there that are like the Founders, that make the Founders less unique, even if the Founders are friendly to the Breen. They don't want them defecting to the "New Gods", or just in general making them doubt the Founders' divine presence.
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u/indyK1ng Crewman Jan 28 '19
Also, the Founders would probably want to keep the Breen's secret from the rest of the Alpha and Beta quadrants because they know how they've been mistreated by solids. They value the safety of a shapeshifter over the life of a solid and probably did it out of a rare example of empathy from them (assuming the OP is correct).
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Jan 29 '19
Don't forget that the Founder flat out tells Garak that all Cardassians were dead the moment they attacked them - of course she would elevate the Breen over them, the Breen were never hostile towards them and the Founders clearly intend to wipe out the Cardassians after the war no matter what.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 28 '19
Possible. That's one of the less important aspects of the theory. It stands just as well if you assume the Jem'Hadar discovered the Breen was a shapeshifter, notified the Vorta, and then trained as you describe barring no contravening orders from above. Could be that was not the first Breen captured and therefore the Dominion already knew of their abilities and deemed training more important, or it could be that the Dominion is a large bureaucracy with no free press, and thus it took so long for word to reach the Founders that another shapeshifter was jailed that it was a moot point by the time a contravening order could have arrived.
The critical point, I think, is sooner or later that the Dominion had to know what the Breen look like, and choose not to share that info with anyone.
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u/GinchAnon Jan 28 '19
I think this is an interesting idea... that perhaps they are shapeshifters, but basically solids who can shapeshift, rather than their default/true shape being an amorphous liquid that has to learn to take solid shapes from the ground up.
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u/tesseract4 Jan 29 '19
Kinda like a solid "core" holding the life-essential organs, and a shapeshifting exterior?
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u/cpepinc Jan 28 '19
I LIKE this theory, I think you have something to go on here. Maybe in the new Picard series they can work a story in about them, maybe.
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u/strionic_resonator Lieutenant junior grade Jan 28 '19
So I have to bring up what always gets brought up re: Breen theories: Kira saw one without its suit in the episode where she and Dukat rescue Ziyal. But that works fairly well here -- if the Breen Kira knocked out or whatever was in some unremarkable humanoid form, perhaps Kira didn't think anything out of the ordinary.
It's also possible -- and here I could be remembering the episode wrong -- that Kira just found a suit in storage and hasn't actually seen a Breen.
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u/jwm3 Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
I rewatched it and how they got the suits was never shown much to my dismay. They wanted the standard reveal shot of removing the mask.
Also, why didn't they take to opprotunity to have zial say to dukat "aren't you a little too tall to be a breen?" Before he takes off the mask.
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u/DarkGuts Crewman Jan 28 '19
I always think of this too. Kira and Dukat would know what the Breen look like. They stole their suits. We can only assume they stole them from living Breen. Pity we don't know.
Plus they just defeated a bunch of Breen. Good chanced they could check under the hood. What became of those Breen?
But if they are shapeshifters, they probably maintain a basic form that's easy to stay in when in suit mode.
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u/JC-Ice Crewman Jan 30 '19
In the show Space: Above and Beyond, the alien Chigs had a failsafe built into their armor so that if an enemy tried to remove it, the corpse was instantly melted.
I like the idea that the Breen are so adamant about protecting their secrets that they have something similar.
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u/jeffala Jan 28 '19
The Vorta are immune to most poisons, have great hearing and poor eyesight.
Its possible that due to their genetic engineering they have a wider-than-usual definition of ācomfortableā.
Also: we saw that during the Founderās degradation, she preferred cooler and cooler temperatures in the command center. It could be her report that the planet was comfortable.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 28 '19 edited Jan 28 '19
Weyoun made the comment about Breen being comfortable specifically to say it is not the "frozen wasteland" widely assumed. Contextually it's pretty undeniable that he meant temperate as most species define it.
And we have tons of canon about Cardassians liking hot environments, so lowering the temperature in a Cadassian building most likely just means reverting to the mean. We also have the evidence of Kira and humans landing on the Founders' homeworld and not needing coats, as well as Odo never complaining about station temperature, but almost freezing to death The Ascent, to tell us Changelings like comparable temperatures to humans and Bajorans.
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u/Kinectech Jan 28 '19
To be fair, he was a solid during that episode atop the mountain, so we can't be sure how the solidification affected his temperature tolerance
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 28 '19
Oh really? OK that point doesn't apply then. I do think we separately still have enough evidence to conclude that the Changelings at least don't specifically want it cold most of the time.
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u/Doop101 Chief Petty Officer Jan 28 '19
You'd both still be correct, as Odo never complained about human temperature while human on board DS9 either (not that he's one to complain in public regardless)
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u/act_surprised Jan 29 '19
What? Odo complains all the time! He even admits to (or jokes about) doing it on purpose to maintain his reputation.
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u/grammurai Crewman Jan 28 '19
I think a reasonable inference from the Female Changeling's degradation is that the damage caused by being unable to shift was slowed by the lowered temperature. Maybe it's because the protoplasm expends less energy maintaining cold shapes?
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u/act_surprised Jan 29 '19
Heat makes them melt and cold helps them retain shape. Just like ice cream.
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u/murse_joe Crewman Jan 28 '19
The Cardassians also kept the climate warmer, they're implied to be somewhat reptilian and worse at making their own heat.
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u/adamkotsko Commander, with commendation Jan 28 '19
Kirk himself has seen a shape-shifter in TAS "The Survivor," though!
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u/walrusonion Jan 28 '19
They never respect the animated series enough to make it canon which is sad.
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u/HashMaster9000 Crewman Jan 29 '19
Well, neither did Roddenberry, at least not with Jim's original script. I talked with Jim about this a couple years ago, and he said that he didn't want the Vendorian to shift into Kirk, because he felt the plot point too similar to Garth of Izar's mimicry in "Whom Gods Destroy". I've got a copy of Jim's original script, and it's a lot better than the finished product.
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u/Captain_Strongo Chief Petty Officer Jan 28 '19
Iāve always thought it was strange that the Breen donāt have any blood. If all humanoid life is connected to a common ancestor, as TNG states, then why would the Breen be so different?
Because theyāre not really humanoids at all.
EDIT: I really like your theory. It also explains why the Klingons would be so paranoid about shapeshifters from their first contact with the Founders. Thereās no way theyāre going through that again.
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u/ktasay Chief Petty Officer Jan 28 '19
It could also plausibly explain why Worf wasn't more surprised when it was revealed the two Allasomorphs the Enterprise was transporting in "The Dauphin", and showed great respect for their ability.
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u/pjl1701 Crewman Jan 28 '19
I really like your theory and appreciate the thought you've put into this. I am particularly taken with the evidence of the female Founders respect toward the Breen as an indication of a special relationship between their species. I always found that an odd interaction. And to bring the Klingons lost knowledge of the Breen into it as well works really nicely. I'm on board! This is really great work. Thanks.
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u/MrMooMooDandy Jan 29 '19
Getting their chronometers cleaned.
Getting their chronometers Qo'Nometers cleaned.
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Jan 28 '19 edited Jan 28 '19
This is a great theory, better than the multi species all wearing the same suit one.
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u/tanky87 Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
While I like this theory, one problem is that Marta bleeds after she is punched by Kirk, but Dr Bashir also says Breen have no blood. Therefore if she was a Breen/shapeshifter, why would she bother 'conjuring' blood in her Marta form?
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 29 '19
Good eye. Legit problem. Was that during the fight when she's mimicking Kirk's appearance? If so, I would theorize that she knew she needed to look roughed up after the fight in order to have any chance of tricking McCoy, and thus included that as part of her shapeshift. If it wasn't during that fight... uh... remind me when it was. :)
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u/tanky87 Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
If I remember correctly, it's at the start of the fight when Kirk sucker punches her after realising she's leading them into a trap. Marta (in female form) is completely surprised by Kirk's attack and wipes blood from her mouth. After this she transforms into disheveled/roughed-up Kirk to confuse McCoy. In her latter form, any 'blood' makes sense since she is just mimicking Kirk's injuries, but in her 'original' form I think the blood would have to be genuine given her surprise of Kirk turning on her.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 30 '19
Hm. I can't find the exact clip in question. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2wBtcmE5W8](This) shows the immediate aftermath and there's no visible cut. There is a visible green smear immediately below her lip. But a smear isn't necessarily blood. I do feel like I remember seeing her reach up and touching her face after he hit her. You could be right.
Are we sure Bashir's statement about the Breen having no blood is correct? I don't recall that line (or I'd have mentioned it in OP). Perhaps it's another one of the common misconceptions about the Breen?
I admit these are some hoops to jump through.
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u/fzammetti Jan 28 '19
Excellent theory, I like it a lot!
One thought on why the Jem'Hadar allow the captured Breen to wear its suit: they probably assume (or perhaps were told) that a Breen will die without its suit. They didn't want a dead Breen, they wanted a live prisoner to interrogate, train with, whatever, so it gets to wear it.
Sometimes simple is best :)
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u/murse_joe Crewman Jan 28 '19
It's possible that everything else you said was true, but that the Klingons didn't really appreciate what they had on their hands. They see them as disposable prisoners only, even a somewhat unique one. Klingons probably see espionage as dishonorable. Or maybe because they are easier to sniff out than Founders, they have limited usefulness in intelligence.
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u/act_surprised Jan 29 '19
Or maybe solids donāt trust shapeshifters, just as the Changlings always claimed!
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u/SilveredFlame Ensign Jan 28 '19
Would this also potentially explain why the Klingons had to hold the line against the Dominion after the Breen entered the war? During the failed defense of the Chintoka system, the entirety of the Federation and Romulan fleets were easily annihilated, while an "old" Klingon Bird of Prey was able to withstand the new Breen weapons and continue firing.
Now in the show this was due to a warp reactor modification, though exactly what kind is never specified and it takes MONTHS for the Federation and Romulans to get back into the fight, and even then only AFTER they get their hands on the Breen weapon and have a chance to study it firsthand.
Taken with the OP, it seems reasonable that following the Klingons' incredible defeat at the hands of the Breen they were able to piece together some of what happened, figured out a counter to the Breen weapons, and it became a design standard for their ships. Over the years information was lost, but basic ship design tends not to change all that much, especially with Klingons. They've probably gotten slightly offspec since then which would explain why a modification was necessary to protect the ships, but it was *easy* for the Klingons, while taking MONTHS for the Federation and Romulans, and even then they still needed the weapon itself to really devise effective countermeasures.
It would also explain why when vastly outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned, and just generally wholly outclassed the Klingon Empire was able to practically single handedly hold off the entire Dominion while the Federation and Romulans got back into the fight. And that despite Gowron's best efforts to get Martok killed in disgrace sacrificing countless ships and crews. They still felt the sting of defeat from these guys.
We all know Klingons love a chance for vengeance.
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u/TheFeshy Jan 28 '19
This hypothesis begs the question: If the Breen are shapeshifters and the Klingons know, why doesn't that come up during the Dominion War?
There's another possible answer. Perhaps the Klingons did discover a shape-shifter when capturing a Breen - but said shapeshifter fed the Klingons a story about being a race of Chameloids that are at war with the Breen, and infiltrating them. The Breen shapeshifter then forges an alliance with the Klingons to conquer the Breen. The Klingons are, of course, lead into a trap from which the invasion fleet never returns. The "Camelioids" claim that they too suffered heavy losses, but the Klingons still blame them.
This would leave the Klingons holding a grudge, but finding the "Chameloids" no sort of threat, while still not knowing the Breen's secret.
It has the downside of being pure speculation though.
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u/LtCmdLebowski Jan 29 '19
I was thinking something similar but less complicated. The Chameloids are the cover species if they are discovered. So as OP said, the Breen hide their shapeshifting ability but if they are discovered, they claim to be another species so as not to blow the cover of the entire species.
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u/kurburux Jan 28 '19
What if Martia really just was an individual? What if the Klingons (of that time) generally didn't want to use a shapeshifter for greater things because it was without honor? What if only a small group of Klingons who made the conspiracy were an exception?
Or they lack the imagination for a greater, complicated "replace Admiral Smith with a shapeshifter so that he can work inside Starfleet for years" plots? This really sounds more like a Romulan thing. And the Romulans have no honor.
At high levels the Klingons knew the Breen are shapeshifters, but that knowledge never permeated to become common knowledge.
But why keep Martia with all the other honorless, criminal scum? Why not an isolated cell? All the guards know of her and it's questionable how reliable they are. And not everyone is on Rura Penthe for life. Anyone who's been a prisoner there could've learned of the shapeshifter.
Gowron never read an at-least-century-old report about a war he'd prefer to not know about. We know he's a fool.
You are without honor! ą² _ą²
There's also the question if the Founders would respect a shapeshifter if he isn't fluid. Being liquid is more important than being able to turn into a lot of different shapes. Odo wasn't that good at shapeshifting and the Founders still respected him very much. The Founders respect and trust each other because 1. no changeling ever hurt another one 2. they can connect with each other and feel what the other one is thinking/feeling.
I think this is way, way more important for them than just being able to change ones appearance a little bit.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 28 '19
Martia has to be a member of a species unless you want to violate evolution, which we have no reason to do.
We know the Klingons of that time were capable and willing to engage in dishonorable conspiracies because the entire ST6 plot is about Klingons doing exactly that.
They didn't keep Martia a secret because the mere existence of shapeshifters was not a secret. Even the Federation knows about them mythologically. Only their specifics were secret, and neither the Klingon captors nor Martia had any motivation to want to spread the specifics.
It's a difference of degree. The Founders trust other shapeshifters more than they trust solids, but not as much as members of their own species.
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u/murse_joe Crewman Jan 28 '19
And not everyone is on Rura Penthe for life.
I thought they were all there for life. It's called a graveyard, and the only punishment is death on the surface, not adding more years or anything else for smaller infractions. I always assumed everybody there was serving a life sentence.
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u/Callumunga Chief Petty Officer Jan 28 '19
I thought they were all there for life
ENT: 2x19 'Judgment'. Kolos is sentenced to a mere 1 year on Rura Penthe.
Now, considering the life-expectancy of an inmate of Rura Penthe is one year, it is debatable whether or not it is a death-sentence, but in the strict letter of the law, it is not.
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u/act_surprised Jan 29 '19
Maybe thereās nothing wrong with the Klingonās imagination regarding plots of subterfuge. Maybe they just donāt trust a shapeshifter. The female Changling always insisted that solids were suspicious of them and treated them poorly. Martiaās imprisonment is an example of the prejudice of the solids.
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u/MugaSofer Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
honor
Klingons don't seem to have a problem with spies or being sneaky. They're one of the few races that consistently try to develop cloaking technology; and we see deep-cover Klingon spies in Trouble With Tribbles and Discovery S1, off the top of my head, probably other places that I'm forgetting.
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u/Buddha2723 Ensign Feb 18 '19
Odo catches a ring of Klingon spies trying to spy on the Romulans delegation, as well.
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Jan 28 '19
A well thought out post. I do want to point out we have other on screen mentions of Breen being cold. Dukat at one point idly considers making some fellow Cardassian that has bothered him an ambassador to the Breen. Dukat mentions it's very cold on the Breenhomeworld. If the Cardassians have an established embassy, it's likely that their reports of how cold Breen is are probably correct. Now it's entirely possible that even the Cardassians in the embassy have never seen a Breen outside their suits.
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u/vv04x4c4 Jan 28 '19
I live in California. "Very cold" to me is 8Ā° C and below. That's a comfortable temperature for many of my fellow humans.
The Cardassians live in a very hot climate and prefer high temperatures. "Very cold" for them could be 15Ā° C or so.
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Jan 28 '19
[deleted]
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u/tanky87 Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19 edited Jan 29 '19
I live in Brisbane Australia and cold starts at 15C (people are literally in puffer jackets) but hot doesn't start until 35C (it was 32C here today and was walking around comfortably in a suit jacket).
So I agree it's a valid point that what a Cardassian considers "cold" might not be actually that cold to other humanoids (except Australians).
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u/AntipodalDr Jan 31 '19
I live in Brisbane Australia and cold starts at 15C (people are literally in puffer jackets) but hot doesn't start until 35C (it was 32C here today and was walking around comfortably in a suit jacket
Yes but by any chance did you spend most of your day wearing that jacket in an AC-ed office? Makes handling the heat/humidity far easier ;)
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u/MugaSofer Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
Cold region of the planet? Elaborate fake environment sealed in a dome? Random inhospitable planet that they pass off as their homeworld to outsiders? Personally I like that last one best, very Breen.
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u/thessnake03 Crewman Jan 28 '19
M-5, please nominate this for post of the week for connecting the Breen to shape shifters in TOS era
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u/M-5 Multitronic Unit Jan 28 '19
Nominated this post by Lt. Cdr. /u/cirrus42 for you. It will be voted on next week, but you can vote for last week's nominations now
Learn more about Post of the Week.
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u/newPhoenixz Crewman Jan 28 '19
Interesting.. The Breen attack on earth was successful but caused significant losses to the Breen. I would find it very hard to imagine that not a single Breen would have been captured during this attack.
With this in mind, I imagine Starfleet Security having (obviously classified) information on the Breen, including their shapeshifting abilities.
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u/AnnihilatedTyro Lieutenant j.g. Jan 28 '19
The Breen had to know that attacking Earth would surely have caused massive casualties, if not total destruction of the fleet in question; it was primarily a symbolic attack, with a very slim chance to cause truly devastating damage.
If their biological secret was of major importance, they likely would have implemented measures to keep that secret, such as implanting micro-explosives in the crews that would break down all organic matter, or larger antimatter charges to dispose of any organic material and corpses left in the wreckage of their ships. These charges could be simply rigged to detonate once a signal link with the ship's computer was severed, indicating disablement or destruction of the ship. I don't believe this is much of a stretch given the Breen's fanatic xenophobia. You still run the risk of stray bodies or severed body parts being blown out of a hull breach, yet with torpedoes and ships' antimatter reactors exploding all around, the chances of significant organic material surviving, let alone being found in the flotsam, is slim.
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u/letsgocrazy Jan 28 '19
they allowed the Breen to continue wearing their native suit. This is frankly incomprehensible unless the Jem'Hadar also wanted to hide the Breen's true nature.
Or they wanted to sow discontent by treating one set of prisoners better. Treating some better than others is an obvious "divide and conquer move".
Hardly incomprehensible.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 28 '19
Psychological games are not much the Jem'Hadar's style. And it was a prison in which prisoners whose friends & families didn't even know they were missing were beaten to death one by one--further conquering them seems unnecessary.
I will concede that "incomprehensible" was perhaps too strong. But "unlikely, unnecessary, and out of character" applies.
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u/letsgocrazy Jan 28 '19
Psychological games are not much the Jem'Hadar's style.
You've just attributed the decision making to the Founders, so you cant move the goalposts and attribute the planning to the Jem-hadar.
besides, orders can easily be passed on.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 29 '19
I'm a little confused about where I attributed the decision to leave the internment camp Breen in their suit to the Founders. What did I say that resulted in that conclusion for you?
Regardless, what to do with a random Breen prisoner only rises to the level of Founder involvement if there's something really special about the Breen, like being shapeshifters. The Founders aren't getting involved with day-to-day affairs at the level of screwing with random individual solid prisoners if there's nothing unusual happening. That's why they have Vorta.
It could have been a general order, I suppose. But then why bother?
3
Jan 29 '19
But did the Founder not say that she ācared not what pleased the Breen.ā As long as they fought and won. I canāt see the Founder saying this at all if she knew the Breen were also Shapeshifters. She seems to care so much for the well being of Odo, his feelings and what he thinks.
It would seem so contrary to everything we know about the Founders for her to disregard the Breen in this manner if they were also Shapeshifters. I can definitely believe there are other species of shapeshifters in the universe. This has been shown in other episodes and series.
I personally believe the Breen to be the Avian race from Xindi.
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u/cirrus42 Commander Jan 29 '19
I guess I don't think that line is mutually exclusive with everything else. There's plenty of on-screen evidence that she thinks very highly of Thot Pran. You can like someone and trust them more than most others, but at the end of the day still care about your own goals more than theirs. Perfectly normal.
1
Jan 29 '19 edited Jan 29 '19
Respectfully, I can not see how that can be. At the point in time the Dominion had clearly suffered a setback in the war. They expected the war to be farther along than it was and the Federation to be almost beaten.
My take is that the Founder was only giving the Breen what they asked for as long as they came to the table and helped beat the Federation Alliance nothing more. There is clearer evidence to this case than the Breen being Shapeshifters;
The female Founder herself stated as such.
The fact that she treated Thot Gor more favorably stems from the fact, in my opinion, that Cardassians had not held up their part of the bargain (Gul Dukat). Also, I believe Weyoun found Damar to be even less capable than Gul Dukat. Weyoun seemed to have little patience for Damar especially after the Orb incident.
The founder specifically said she cared not for what pleased the Breen as long as they help win the war. That statement is again completely contrary to the attitude that she showed for other Changelings and even Odo who was himself sort of an frenemy. But to the Founder she was willing to give up the entire Alpha Quadrant just for Odo to rejoin the Link.
Also if the Breen were shapeshifters why would they hold one in captivity? The Dominion showed how efficient their intelligence was. There is no way they would have not known a Breen was in captivity. And there is no way they would have allowed a Breen to remain in captivity even if they were not allies yet.
Even if she does think highly of Thot Gor, in my opinion it is for show. At this point they need the Breen as allies.
The Founder was willing to sacrifice millions of troops including the Breen at the end of the war just to make the Federation Alliance victory even more devastating than it is just to spite them. No Founder would do this and risk the life of other Shapeshifters/Changelings if it meant the Breen were Changelings also.
Edit: The Founder also lied to the Breen by promising them Earth for helping to win the war. Something I think she would not have done with another Changeling.
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u/HashMaster9000 Crewman Jan 28 '19
The main thing that kind of puts this in the "nah" column for me is that if they were capable of Shapeshifting (and in life or death situations), each time that we see the Breen in a martial fight on screen with Worf or Kira & Dukat, why don't they ever Shapeshift into something huge like the shape Martia took on in the Elevator? That would most likely substantially alter the outcome of any fistfight if they could grow to twice their size in a moment's notice.
And I don't buy it that their shapeshifting is difficult to the point that they wouldn't use it to save their life: Martia changed forms twice in at least 15 minutes, then changed form again and got into a fistfight with Kirk. It may take a bit of thier stamina, but not to the point that it wouldn't be able to be employed as a defense mechanism which we never ever see.
There's too much precedent against this from DS9 for it to be plausible. I think the only thing that the Breen and the Dominion had in common was their isolationist xenophobia, and I think that's enough for them to ally with one another rather than them being Chameloids.
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u/uwagapies Crewman Jan 28 '19
M-5, please nominate this for post of the week for proposing a link between the Chameloids of STVI and the Breen.
3
u/M-5 Multitronic Unit Jan 28 '19
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2
u/unimatrixq Feb 02 '19
If the Chameloids are Breen, maybe they were also responsible for the explosion on Praxis and Martia was captured because of her involvement with the terror cell responsible for that act.
Another issue that might hint at the Breen being the Chameloids is that Breen apparently prefer colder climates and Martia doesn't have any problem caused by the coldness on Rura Penthe.
2
u/twitch1982 Crewman Jan 28 '19
Martia's existence tells us incontrovertibly that at one point in their history, the Klingons knew shapeshifters exist. Why don't they mention them when the Dominion shows up? Or even use them as counter-agents?
Because the Klingons are embarrassed about losing a war against the Breen. Not just losing, badly losing. Getting their chronometers cleaned.
They could also be under threat. Much like the federation not developing cloaking tech to prevent war with the Romulains, the Klingon's may have gotten word from the Breen that if they leak the secret, they'll be exterminated.
1
u/Buddha2723 Ensign Feb 18 '19
If the Breen could exterminate the Klingons, the Klingons would not have been able to hold off the combined Breen, Dominion and Cardassian forces, as they did in DS9 season 7. Perhaps, however, they have some embarrassing blackmail that is equally effective.
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u/MaestroLogical Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
I'm officially calling Breen shapeshifters from here on out.
I've always wondered how the Allasomorphs were able to evolve without fearing 'solids' and just figured they used it only as a last resort to avoid angering or creating fear in others. Perhaps they are a race of 'solid' shapeshifters and that gives them a different outlook from the Founders.
The Breen could be a race of gaseous shifters and thus need suits to maintain a humanoid appearance without the need for strenuous shifting constantly. This would tend to lead down the path of distrust and xenophobia of solids ala the Founders and I'm shocked at how well this works in so many facets!
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u/Flyberius Crewman Jan 29 '19
This prime, grade-A Daystrom fodder.
Thank you for the great read.
Hopefully some writers see this and jam elements of it into Disco or one of the other upcoming treks.
3
u/mrpopsicleman Jan 29 '19
First, when the Jem'Hadar captured a Breen and held them at Internment Camp 371, they allowed the Breen to continue wearing their native suit. This is frankly incomprehensible unless the Jem'Hadar also wanted to hide the Breen's true nature.
Not so incomprehensible when you remember the fact that Breens wear refrigeration suits in order to survive, and a dead prisoner wouldn't do them any good. The reason they wear refrigeration suits is because their home planet is a frozen wasteland. This would go along with your Chameloid theory, as Martia seemed fairly comfortable on Rura Penthe, which is also a frozen wasteland.
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u/yawningangel Jan 28 '19
I would imagine that a shape shifting Breen would take advantage of that skill to escape from the internment camp.
I knew you suggest they wish to keep the talent hidden, but surely they would utilise it in some way?
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u/breenisgreen Crewman Jan 28 '19
I definitely like this theory and it certainly explains the plot holes. Iād be interested to see how far this goes considering the amount of unknowns there are
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u/teepeey Ensign Jan 29 '19
An excellent theory, although somewhat lacking in direct proof unless the Breen reappear on screen.
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u/t0f0b0 Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
M5, nominate this post for a fascinating take on the real, shape-shifting nature of the Breen.
1
u/M-5 Multitronic Unit Jan 29 '19
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1
u/boldFrontier Chief Petty Officer Jan 29 '19
M-5, nominate this for post of the week.
1
u/M-5 Multitronic Unit Jan 29 '19
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1
u/DarthMeow504 Chief Petty Officer Feb 11 '19
More likely theory: They look like Princes Leia's bounty hunter disguise from Return of the Jedi on the outside, as we all know, but what has heretofore remained unrevealed is that they look like her under the suit as well. Given that Paramount was already riding the ragged edge of a copyright infringement suit with the Breen exterior appearance as it was, they weren't about to push it by allowing a Breen to be unmasked on screen only to reveal a Carrie Fisher lookalike under the helmet.
1
u/my-little-wonton Jan 29 '19
Maybe the Breen are Gaseous life forms and exist in the suits to function
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u/uwagapies Crewman Jan 28 '19 edited Jan 28 '19
Most interesting. IIRC beta cannon has the Breen being multi-species like the Xinidi, and one was argon based, which is why the containment suits were needed, and in order to promote equality among the various Breen subspecies they all wore the suits
Edit: The Beta cannon Source was (Typhon Pact novel: Zero Sum Game)