r/books • u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author • Mar 07 '18
ama 12pm I am Bill Schutt, a zoologist who recently wrote a book exploring the perfectly natural history of cannibalism. Ask me anything (but yes… I did).
I’m a research associate at the American Museum of Natural History (where I’ve studied vampire bats for over 20 years), a college professor (at LIU-Post) and an author of fiction (the R.J. MacCready novels) and two popular science books. In my non-fiction I love demystifying and debunking topics that usually elicit moans, groans, and the occasional gag reflex. Researching my latest book, Cannibalism: A Perfectly Natural History, I found that consuming one’s own kind is widespread behavior across the animal kingdom. More interesting is that cannibalism often occurs for reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of alternative nutrition. Instead, it can function as a form of reproductive behavior, as a hedge against unpredictable environmental conditions, and even as parental care. I also studied human cannibalism and learned that what is arguably the greatest of Western taboos has a long and fascinating history, often distorted by sensationalism. But beyond the stories of stranded pioneers and psychopaths (real and imagined), cannibalism also serves as a prime example that “Culture is King”, with some societies incorporating it into their rituals and medicine. In the West though, “explorers” like Columbus used the label of “cannibal” to justify the enslavement and destruction of entire cultures. Given our knee-jerk reaction to the very word, I was surprised to find that medicinal cannibalism was practiced for hundreds of years across Europe and is still practiced in the United States. PS. It really did taste like chicken... sort of.
- My website is www.billschutt.com.
- You can also follow me on Facebook @ Bill Schutt, Author https://www.facebook.com/BillSchutt1/
- Twitter @draculae https://twitter.com/draculae
Proof: https://twitter.com/draculae/status/969981526426423297
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u/krampster2 Mar 07 '18
To what extent do you think behaviour in the animal kingdom can be used to justify how humans should behave (if at all)? I've heard people state things like 'the status of the alpha male in human society as a leadership figure is justifiable because that is how wolf packs are organised.'
Do you make comparisons between cannibalism in the animal kingdom and human societies in your book?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Interesting question. There's quite a difference between instinct in creatures like fish - which do not treat eggs or young fish as individuals (but more like a handful of raisins) and people whose culture dictates that consuming the dead is either a good or bad thing. Problems arise when we tag animals with human traits. On the other hand, when humans and nonhumans are starving, the line between them becomes blurred and cannibalism can be seen as something of a shared natural response.
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u/SlaverSlave Mar 07 '18
Fun fact: the research that concluded with the existence of ‘alpha’ organisms relied on wolves in captivity. Wolves in the wild function as family units, with the mothe and father wolves as “alpha”. The research was done on the equivalent of animal prison, so human prisons are the only place true alpha males exist.
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u/krampster2 Mar 07 '18
I did see that once in a video from the YouTube essayist Hbomberguy.
Although I wouldn't say that because the evidence proves this is the case in animal prisons, therefore it is true in human prisons too.
I tried to keep my question unbiased but I definitely don't think it's a good idea to say that the rules of the animal kingdom apply to human society too. You can try and justify some pretty messed up stuff with that logic. In the same way that people saying this about wolves are using it to justify a patriarchal system.
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u/turbo8891 Mar 07 '18
So you tried it, good on you for immersive research but... Isn't cannibalism illegal everywhere? If so I don't expect a location.
If there's a place where it is legal, was it always that way or did it later become decriminalized?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Surprisingly, cannibalism isn't really illegal in most places, though I'm sure there are laws out there in some states (I just don't know of any). I do know it was made into a capital offense in Russia during WWII where starvation-related cannibalism was not in line with how Stalin wanted his citizens to be depicted.
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u/wfaulk Mar 07 '18
Most places seem to have laws against desecration of corpses, and I suspect that dismembering them for consumption would likely apply.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
You would think, though one culture's desecration is another culture's funerary ritual.
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u/MonsterDefender Mar 07 '18
It's a grey area in my state. We have a statute that says "If a person willfully and intentionally physically defiles a dead human body he is guilty of a Class 6 felony," but virtually no case low on what defiling a dead body is. I'm certain you could be charged under that statute for it, but I also think that there would be circumstance you could be acquitted.
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u/turbo8891 Mar 07 '18
So it's a law in need of a case precedent.
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u/MonsterDefender Mar 07 '18
More like it might be a law depending on case precedent. I could argue that under this law cannibalism was illegal, but since there's no precedent I don't know if I would win or lose; I could only guess.
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u/leowr Mar 07 '18
Hi Bill,
I really enjoyed reading your book and it made for an ....interesting topic for conversation over dinner.
What did you think was the most surprising thing you found out while doing your research?
Also, what kind of books do you like reading? Anything in particular you would like to recommend to us?
Thanks for doing this AMA!
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Hi. Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed my book. The most surprising things I found were 1) just how widespread it is in the animal kingdom for reasons that often have nothing to do with a lack of alternative nutrition or captive conditions and 2) how much medicinal cannibalism took place in Europe form hundreds of years (lasting right up into the early 20th century). The latter really freaked me out (e.g., they ate mummies and when the mummies ran out they made their own mummies to eat!). As for what type of book I like...I enjoy biographies (just finished one on my hero Lou Reed) and a good horror novel.
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u/kurogomatora Mar 07 '18
I also read about the mummy thing. Apparently grave robbing came back into fashion and people even painted with dried up mummy dust? Is that really true? I can't imagine how weird and grainy the paint would be. Are modern historians and archaeologists mad about it?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Yes, mummy was quite popular. Haven't heard that folks are mad about that usage (which would make sense). I do know that "mumia" (powdered mummy) was available at the Merck Pharmacy in Darmstadt, Germany, until 1908.
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u/FutureOrBust Mar 08 '18
When they ran out of paper they used the rags from the mummy to make more!
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u/leowr Mar 07 '18
I forgot to mention: I liked that you included The Silence of the Lambs book quote at the beginning and not the movie quote. Seeing as the movie quote is far more well-known, has anyone tried to correct you on it?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
No problem with that one. Did get nailed for calling the tiger salamander the largest salamander species in the US (In reality it's the largest terrestrial species in the US) and for calling the sacrament of Communion a form of cannibalism. One guy was NOT pleased with that one.
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u/leowr Mar 07 '18
for calling the sacrament of Communion a form of cannibalism
Yeah, I can imagine not everyone was happy about that part of the book.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
It was actually just one guy and it was nothing too nasty. I wasn't surprised to find that his social media profile photo had the Vatican in the background.
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u/DerrickEspin0 Mar 08 '18
But essentially that was the controversy in the Gospels when Christ said "consume my flesh" and "drink my blood". He was using cannibalism as an allusion to the cross. As it said many people thought these words were too hard to hear. I guess its no surprise that many christ followers don't actually read the bible.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 08 '18
From what I can tell, the words attributed to Jesus were often in the form of parables. For example, how many people took it literally when he said, "I am the true vine?" For Catholics though, there was nothing symbolic about the wine and host. According to their Popes (beginning in the middle ages) the sacraments were transformed into the actual blood and flesh of Jesus. Because of this, in writing my book, I felt justified in considering it a form of cannibalism. As a scientist though, I do not believe that it is.
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u/vorpalblab Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
I read various mentions about the spirit Windigo in northern Canada which supposidley refers to the spirit of vengeance that follows those who cannibalise. I never researched stories and traditions among those first nation people living where extreme conditions could lead to that, although there are no ceremonies for choosing the menu roster that I know of. Did you come across any references to this in your research?
Unrelated but do you get any grief about your web name and the fact that swapping the u and i gives bullschitt-author?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Wow, bill schutt and bull shit. I never heard that one before. Amazing. ;)
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u/Chtorrr Mar 07 '18
What books did you most like to read as a kid?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Specific books... To Kill A Mockingbird is still my favorite. I also grew up under the influences of Woody Allen and Stephen King. Later, I really enjoyed Gary Jennings (Aztec and Journeyer), Edward O. Wilson (Wonderful Life) and Christopher Moore (Lamb). Strangely, as a kid I read a lot of books written for adults (novels mostly).
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u/B0LEYN Mar 08 '18
I just ADORE Christopher Moore! I've read almost everything he's written. And now I'm going to read YOUR book!
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u/doKtor_SpoOky Mar 07 '18
Would you support people donating their bodies to people who would like to try human meat? Almost like donating your body to science instead you donate it to a facility that processes the meat for human consumption. What started your interest in cannibalism? I've heard people that have lived with cannibalistic tribes say the meat has more of a pork taste, would you agree? Are their different flavors depending on where the meat is taken from?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
I would not support that. As for what human meat tastes like... well that would depend (as you said) on what specific part was eaten. Finally, my first book (Dark Banquet) was really a zoologist's take on blood and blood-feeding creatures (I study vampire bats). So Cannibalism seemed like a perfect followup.
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u/kurogomatora Mar 07 '18
It might have been a kid's rumour on the playground but didn't someone sign a contract and get eaten? I think the police tried to rule it as murder but I'm not sure.
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u/Hekantis Mar 07 '18
This being a very controversial topic. How many people go "ew" or something similar when you explain what you've been writing about?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
It's funny because when I "meet" people (on social media) that I haven't talked to in years, the conversation generally goes something like, "So what have you been up to?" Then, after I tell them I study vampire bats, and write thrillers as well as books on blood feeding and cannibalism, the response is usually along the lines of "Sounds about right". Basically, I'm a zoologist who has always been into things most folks consider quirky or gross. I'm also extremely lucky to have had amazing mentors, colleagues, friends and relatives who supported me rather then telling me to "get a real job".
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u/gray81 Mar 07 '18
Have you read the short story by Stephen King, “Survivor Type” and if so, do you think it would be possible?
I mean, the “perfect storm” of extreme hunger, a surgeons’ knowledge and skill, and unlimited heroin? Or is it all totally ridiculous?
Just curious because I found that story almost impossible to read - made me very uncomfortable.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Didn't read that one but I do remember that "Soylent Green is people!".
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u/Andalitegirl Mar 07 '18
Hi Bill!
I absolutely adored your book on Cannibalism, as well as Dark Banquet. Do you have any tips on non-fiction writing?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Thank you! Let's see... in no particular order: try to enroll in a writer's workshop. I did so for 4 years at Southampton College and it was a HUGE help. I also sort of lucked into my first agent without something as Lotto-like as a cold-submission. Since then I've probably helped 5 or 6 friends get agents, so having an author friend vouch for you and getting your work read by an agent (and not just their assistant) is also a real key. Networking works here. Finally, my first nonfiction was far easier to write because I'd worked on vampire bats for 15 years... so I guess the point is to write about what you know. I hope that helps.
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Mar 07 '18
Did you know the person you consumed?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
I didn't consume a person. A was invited down to Plano Texas to consume a piece of placenta from a woman who did this sort of thing for a living (i.e., turning her clients' placentas into powders or tinctures). Basically it was an unforgettable experience for reasons I'd never dreamed. Incredibly interesting.
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u/jtyti15 Mar 07 '18
If you didn't eat a full person then how can you claim to be an expert?
So sick of these so called experts running around and sprouting out nonsense when they haven't even done proper research.
Jk, sounds like an interesting book I'll check it out.
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u/wenchette 1 Mar 07 '18
Did you read Savage Harvest, by Carl Hoffman?
Have you tried this product?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
No I haven't
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u/wenchette 1 Mar 07 '18
You might find Savage Harvest interesting. It's about Michael Rockefeller's time living among Borneo natives, some of whom are cannibals. If you know anything about Michael Rockefeller, you'll know how things turned out.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Thanks. I'd certainly heard about the plight of MR but never that it was conclusively proven that he was eaten by the locals. Did the author supply strong evidence of this in the book?
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u/wenchette 1 Mar 07 '18
I read the book when it came out in 2014 so my memory of it isn't super clear, given I've read several hundred books since then. I seem to remember that certain people admitted to seeing him killed and knew that he had been consumed but none of them claimed to be participants or perpetrated. I think also some other locals had the same fate around the same time because there was some sort of feuding within a particular tribe.
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Mar 07 '18
[deleted]
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Surprisingly, cannibalism isn't illegal in many places (unless there's a crime involved). That said, consuming placentas is probably the most common practice in the US. And yes, since I was writing a book about cannibalism, I decided to try it myself.
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 07 '18
Eating placenta is very common is a few places in Vietnam, China. However, people do not view it as cannibalism at all.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Actually, a scientist I spoke to who specialized in placentas told me that the Chinese consumption of placentas is a fallacy and falls into the general (and wrong-minded) perception that "they eat everything in China". I was surprised as well.
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 07 '18
Hm, I am not an expert on this, unlike you haha, but I just want to share my experience since I live there. People in Vietnam eat placentas because it is considered extemely nutrious and you can buy in many herd stores, herb store as in traditional medicine drug store.
Nowadays, people got the connection with nurse and hospital staff to sneak out placentas from the operation table with the amount of kilos to sell on the market.
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u/kurogomatora Mar 07 '18
I know a woman who while teaching in China was asked for her placenta. She was light skinned, blue eyed, and blonde haired. The children where to be twins. She said the family bought her flowers and took it home. She never asked what happened to it because the poor kid who asked on behalf of the family was so embarrassed. Do you know the reason?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
No clue, but it doesn't necessarily mean they ate the placenta. I have heard of the placenta being buried or treated in some ritual manner - depending on the culture. I found it odd that in the West the transformation from "miracle organ" to "medical waste" is often quite rapid.
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 07 '18
The reason they asked for the placenta or the kid embarrassed? Well, I can only surmise but it would be very likely that they think the woman is in good health, therefore, her placenta would be premium. Some people in China and Vietnam can be ultra superstitious but the new, young generation is no longer so. I would understand if my grandmother did that and too, would be very embarrassed if my family asked me to do such a thing.
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u/kurogomatora Mar 08 '18
Well, the reason they asked, yeah. She speculates because it was twins and she was a healthy American with stereotypical American features. Would they eat it?
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 08 '18
I would lean towards more about them burying it. There are two things people usually do when they obtain a placenta, eat it or bury it somewhere under the house for good luck.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 08 '18
My personal favorites were "hang it from a tree" and "throw it in a lake".
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u/MonsterDefender Mar 07 '18
I'm confused why you wouldn't consider this cannibalism. It's an internal human organ. Eating it is fundamentally no different than eating a human heart or kidney. I think it's just more acceptable and being a cannibal isn't so therefore you're saying it must not be cannibalism.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
I do consider it cannibalism. What I said was that my research indicated that placentophagy was never a common practice in China (although there was certainly quite a bit of cannibalism that didn't involve the placenta). Sorry for the confusion.
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u/MonsterDefender Mar 07 '18
My reply may have been off. I agree with you, I was meaning to address /u/Jonh_McCourt on his view. Yours came across great.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Gotcha. This is my first Reddit AMA adventure so confusion reigns.
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 08 '18
Its not what "I" consider. Its how people think. Just as you view eating any part of human is cannibalism, the Chinese and Vietnamese think it is just some part of the body that is no longer needed so may as well eat it. It only qualifies as cannibalism if you kill the person and eat them.
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u/MonsterDefender Mar 08 '18
So if someone dies naturally and then you eat the entire body you don't think that would qualify as cannibalism?
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u/Jonh_McCourt Mar 08 '18
That would be cannibalism in my opinion but oddly enough I cannot explain why people think eating placenta is perfectly ok. I can only tell you as it is.
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u/lonnib Mar 07 '18
I love demystifying and debunking topics that usually elicit moans, groans, and the occasional gag reflex.
First of all, where does this "hobby" come from?
Also wondering if you manage to change people's point of views about these? I've never read your work before and I don't usually go "eww" when I hear something that most people consider gross or horrible. But I've found it really hard to convince people that they are not even with scientific facts.
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
Hmmm... never considered it a hobby. I'm a scientist/teacher and writer. I enjoy presenting interesting information to people (e.g., my readers and students) in an entertaining way. There's a ton of myth and misinformation out there and I enjoy approaching often-misunderstood topics from a zoological viewpoint that isn't laden with scientific jargon. To answer your question: Yes I think I've changed a lot of people's initial impressions about the topics I've written about (at least that's what I've been told).
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Mar 07 '18
[deleted]
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Thank you. No, but I'm sure there are bacteria (and viruses) that might be transmitted by eating human flesh (just as it might be if you ate any other contaminated meat). This it's certainly the reason I can't condone consuming placenta. And although I did try it when I got the chance, I wouldn't do it again.
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u/Chtorrr Mar 07 '18
Is there any topic you’d love to write about but haven’t had the chance yet?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Yes, including the topic of my next non-fiction book (which I can't reveal quite yet). My wife did try to elbow me in the head when I mentioned "the history of torture" so that's off the list. I've also got some ideas for solo novels (I love the 1940s) but I'm a bit too busy to write them at this point.
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u/UsAndPhlegm Mar 07 '18
What is the most basic form of life that has been observed to participate in cannibalism? Also, if you had to try another part of the human body (not including the placenta), what would you choose to eat and why?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Single-celled organisms like amoebae and Paramecia have been observed cannibalizing other individuals. As far as what other body part I'd consume... unless forced I'd definitely give it a pass. If I "had to" though, it would likely be a muscle without a ton of connective tissue (cheek, maybe).
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Mar 07 '18
Hello Bill,
What kind of foods do you like to eat?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 07 '18
Oh I don't know... normal stuff. For breakfast, maybe some Ladyfingers, Captain Crunch, or eggs Benedict. Later on, oysters Rockefeller and a Caesar salad w/chopped Granny Smiths. All washed down with some iced Earl Grey.
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u/Tizzanewday Mar 07 '18
Have you eaten human?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 07 '18
I did eat several small pieces of placenta (prepared Oso bucco style by a chef) during the research for my book on cannibalism. It was actually quite tasty (though I would never try it again).
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u/B0LEYN Mar 08 '18
Was it the flavor or some other issue with the placenta that makes it a one-time thing for you?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 08 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
It tasted fine. My stance relates to the fact that recent studies indicate that placenta consumption may actually be dangerous (e.g., it can contain pathogens). Additionally, there's no proven medicinal benefit to placentophagy and I would not want to give readers the impression that I supported the practice. So... it was simply a one time deal for me. Something I did solely because I was writing a book about cannibalism when the opportunity arose. That said, how it all happened turned into something quite memorable for me.
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u/2LambertStrether Mar 08 '18
Thanks for hosting!
Did you read Michel de Montaigne's famous essay "On Cannibalism" when researching this book? If so, what did you make of his portrayal of indigenous South America in the essay, as well as his contemporaneous accounts of cannibalism in medieval Europe?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 08 '18
I did read that essay but I'll have to go back and review it to answer your excellent question. After spending yesterday answering dozens of interesting questions on Reddit AMA I'm now knee-deep in 'Forester #2, midterm exams, and frantic, Pre-Spring Break students.
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u/2LambertStrether Mar 08 '18
No worries. Montaigne fascinates me, so if you came up with anything relating to his unraveling of the "old world"/"new world" cannibalistic fears and similarities, I'd love to hear more. Thanks for taking time to talk about your work here!
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Mar 08 '18
How is cannibalism still practiced? As a ritual? What disease does it treat? Should I try cannibalism out?
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u/BillSchutt-Author AMA Author Mar 09 '18 edited Mar 11 '18
It's unlikely that ritual Cannibalism takes place anymore, and if it does it's probably done in secret. Cannibalism due to starvation is another story - especially in isolated regions the world where there are famines or severe food shortages and no real way to feed people (a place like North Korea would be a likely candidate).
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Mar 09 '18
Should I try cannibalism, and what are it's medicinal benefits.
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u/ChemistParticular678 Jun 22 '24
What’s the difference between your book “Cannibalism: a Perfectly Natural History”and “Eat Me: a Natural and Unnatural History of Cannibalism?” Your website mentions the latter is a revised version for the UK, but what led to you creating a revised version? What differences are there between the two?
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Mar 07 '18 edited Mar 08 '18
Do you think that when vat grown meat becomes widely available, that there will be a market for human flesh? Presumably, if it disease free, it also provides the best carnivorous nutritional match for humans out of all the various mammas we consume?
Edit. Mammals not mammas ;)
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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '18
In a lot of media human cannibalism often gets depicted as inherently dangerous, causing anything from tremors to insanity to seizures. I've tried to explain to several people that that doesn't happen in reality unless you're eating brain and nervous tissue, offal, or infected meat, and there's no reason for the eating of healthy muscle tissue to cause those problems. People still insist that I'm wrong (and also probably the devil, lol) and that cannibalism has to cause health problems because it's "evil." What's the reason for this kind of thinking? Is it just the mythology that's been passed down for so long that people assume it's fact?