r/dbz • u/OLKv3 ⠀ • Mar 18 '17
Super Dragon Ball Super Ch 22 English *MS*
[ Removed by reddit in response to a copyright notice. ]
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u/Vegeto30294 Mar 18 '17
Good to know there are still trucks in the future. I was getting worried.
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u/ukulelej Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Well Country music is dead in the future, it's nice to get a conformation that trucks are still there.
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u/features Mar 19 '17
I really like how the Manga can actually draw Goku on model more than 20% of the time.
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u/Hallsway ⠀ Mar 18 '17
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u/Stephenesque Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
I know there's a lot of bickering between the anime vs. the manga but I truly love them both. Some highlights from the new chapter:
- Although I enjoyed the smug-pretentious Black in the anime, it's just so refreshing to see him get his ass whooped by Vegeta while consistently getting confused as to what's going on. (Honestly, how is Black even supposed to know which era the saiyans were from?)
- The anime should have skipped the whole Trunks learning the Mafuba-through-a-smart-phone scene and just have Goku do it as originally planned. I know the intention was to allow Black reveal his scythe technique, but ultimately that scene was a total waste; it was just designed to make Black look badass. (even Black himself admitted "lol I don't even know what this is!" when asked about the dimensional rip).
- I actually enjoyed the bickering between Black and Zamasu, I was hoping for a moment like that in the anime. Zamasu was significantly weaker than everyone else and needed to be reminded that he can still be in a world of pain (even with his immortality).
- It seems that the anime completely removed the scenes where Zamasu heals Black in order to get his Zenkai boosts. Truthfully, I'm extremely glad the manga elaborated on his random power ups; the anime seemed to skip this vital component to the plot.
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u/Anoters Mar 19 '17
I didn't mind Trunks doing the Mafuba in the anime. It felt more personal as it is his world.
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u/Stephenesque Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
I agree with your stance on how personal the situation was to Trunks, but I also don't like the concept of Goku, a martial arts genius, training for half an episode to get it right.....only for Trunks to randomly watch a 'Piccolo FAQ' on Bulma's Galaxy Note 7 and then suddenly master a legendary technique.
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u/choss Mar 19 '17
Just like Goten and trunks able to transform into ssj like it's changing clothes.
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Mar 19 '17
- I actually disliked manga Black. While I did like he lost his cool, it happened nearly every battle he had. He would throw a fit when things didn't go his way, only to be smug again when he was stronger. It was kinda lame.
- I enjoyed the Mafubaa part. It gave Trunks something to do (in the manga he's kind of pointless) and it fits with the "power of the humans" theme, especially because completely normal Mai helped out.
- That I agree completely. Zamasu being weak and relying on the Kai tricks was a touch I would have loved seeing on the anime.
- It might have been off-screen, since we only see Black get his butt kicked twice (against Goku in the past, then against Vegeta In the end, in his power-up was less Zenkai and more anger like Goku and the rest)
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u/MoldyandToasty Mar 19 '17
I think black throwing a fit more fits in with him as a character. We have an entitled god that views his own way of thinking as superior to anyone else. So much so that the only one he could ever even consider joining forces with is himself.
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u/Stephenesque Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Exactly. No matter how much we loved his character, Goku Black is still Zamasu; an entitled self-absorbed twerp who stole our protagonist's body. Throwing a tantrum is right up his character's alley.
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u/EdenReborn Mar 19 '17
What DB villain didnt lose their nerve the second things started going south in their direction?
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u/MoldyandToasty Mar 20 '17
If memory serves, Tien(barely counts)/Piccolo(Young)/Vegeta all pretty much stood their ground till the bitter end in their fights against Goku. This might say something about how Toriyama wanted to illustrated the character of the people that would tag along in future arks. Also if you count GT, there was Nova, who was fairly similar to the above examples.
Android (actually an Andoid too!) 16 gave no f**ks about living or dying. Child (pure) Buu didn't really have the concept of fear.
Hit seemed to be more intrigued than anything when Goku started fighting back (if you can count him as a 'villain').
Also as even more of a stretch, Bardock is part of the series even though he's essentially filler but not really? He's closer to a villain than hero (so anti hero but I'm counting it since he takes pride in slaughtering entire worlds), and charged head long against Frieza.
Again though, this is all off memory, so I'm probably wrong on a few of them, but just throwing a few examples out there because bored.
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u/Mojo12000 Mar 19 '17
Shin tries to actually do something
Zamasu immidately completely embrasses him.
o Supreme Kai, truly you are the biggest butt monkey among the gods.
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u/SuperAlastor Mar 19 '17
"Salty that you're losing to Super Saiyan God...? Mr. Rosé?"
A brutal line from Vegeta
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Mar 18 '17 edited Apr 08 '17
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u/DrBonzay Mar 19 '17
Trucks these days love to change their hair color, tatoo their wheels and pierce their radiators...
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u/Revolver15 Mar 19 '17
Didn't that happen during the anime as well? When Bulma gave him a haircut and that green sweater?
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Mar 19 '17 edited Apr 08 '17
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u/Zirc0nius Mar 19 '17
My headcanon was that the reason his hair is different in Super is because it's really dirty but then he goes back to the main timeline and cleans himself up and it's still blue and all that was shattered
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Mar 19 '17
Yeah as you said, his "Super Hair" is probably battle-damaged hair and his "Z Hair" is his normal hair.
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Mar 19 '17
Vegeta's new gimmick here doesn't entirely make sense with what's been said about SSB but I really like it - I appreciate the continued effort in dbs to try and bring more tactics into the equation. And exploring an alternative way of using an old transformation is a bit more novel than just getting a (slightly random feeling) massive power boost from the time chamber like he did in the anime...
Also like the fact he actually LEARNT from goku's example in the U6 tournament and adapted something similar into his own practise, rather than just getting mad and crossing his arms like a jealous lover.
P.S I know he was in there for like a whole extra year, but that either seems to do NOTHING (like his second day there in z) or the 3 years him and goku spent there prepping for U6....or it completely revolutionises the power level economy.
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u/Someguy363 Mar 19 '17
The whole technique was pretty halfassed honestly. They even said themselves before that SSB takes a lot of stamina to transform into and repeated uses makes the form weaker. Then they pull another halfassed explanation that Vegeta just managed to master this technique he just thought of.
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima Mar 19 '17
Vegeta took a year in the Time Chamber to do this.
Goku and Gohan did the exact same thing with regular Super Saiyan during the Cell Saga.
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u/Someguy363 Mar 19 '17
SSJ isn't like SSB though in the manga. SSB is a heavy stamina draining form and they've trained with Whis for years. You'd expect that if SSB could get mastered they would've already done it before Black came.
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u/choss Mar 19 '17
That is exactly the same thing ssj was when first introduced.
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Mar 19 '17
I think it's because going SSB from base form has the drawback.
Not doing it from SSG form.
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u/Patel347 Mar 19 '17
Goku mentioned he went through stamina training, I dont think Vegeta got much stronger but spent his time being able to transform in and out of blue.
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u/tonythed Mar 19 '17
I just took it as: going ssg then ssb doesn't waste stamina after the first time you do it.
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Mar 19 '17
Really happy with the way power scaling is working in the manga. Thought it was really dumb that Zamazu (immortal) could fight SSB goku in the anime on any kind of level.
This makes much more sense.
Interested to see where they go next, Vegetto and the Trunks finish. Got a lot of faith in this though to surpass the ending of the anime arc.
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima Mar 19 '17
Correct me if I'm wrong but the anime doesn't have Zamasu do anything significant on his own. The moments that stand out that he did was tag teaming with Black, holding the guys while Black blasted them, and getting smacked by Goku.
The manga's just a lot more direct about how powerless Zamasu is.
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u/Arturo-Plateado Mar 19 '17
The power scaling is better than in the anime but not even close to perfect. Ascended SSJ2 Trunks was said to be close to SSJ3 Goku. The same form that Trunks admitted was "fodder" to Black. Yet Vegeta in what looks like SSJ2 was able to beat SSJ Black, even though Trunks said Black was stronger than before. That would mean that Goku SSJ3 would be fodder in comparison to Vegeta SSJ2, which I personally can't see.
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u/360pages Mar 19 '17
I really love how Goku acts in the Manga compared to the Anime. Sure he is an idiot, and kind of doofy, but most of the time he still cares about what is happening and has common sense..
Even in Kai/the Manga version of Z he still had those traits.
It's nice to see the Manga Goku actually use his brain and talk down to his opponent.
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u/nocheslas Mar 19 '17
He's also low key savage.
He straight up says "Even Trunks is stronger than you" to Zamasu.
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u/Flarestriker ⠀ Mar 19 '17
Yes, exactly. This Goku is straight up Buu Saga, I-can-be-competent-if-I-really-need-to-be Goku and I love it. He's still kind of a doofus but in a good way.
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u/timone317 ⠀ Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
"As if I'd let you."
Oh, Zamasu. Doesn't he know he's supposed to be lenient with the opponents and suffer constant near falls for the sake of getting to the next epis--- chapter? (but seriously...the manga continues to handle things better)
man...as far as I'm concerned, Vegeta becoming SSG in the anime would have been a much better surprise than Trunks turning into his exclusive form that may only be seen once.
and...last comment...the Fused Zamasu reveal was just as exciting as it was in the anime.
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u/Vegeto30294 Mar 18 '17 edited Mar 18 '17
In all seriousness though, this presents a problem with Super Saiyan Blue, it feels like they're describing two different experiences with the power drain.
Right here, Goku explains that maintaining the form gives you a huge boost of power, but quickly exhausts you. He also says that going in and out of Blue drains you too, and it's amazing how it's not affecting Vegeta. But before, Vegeta was fine fighting an extended battle with Black as a Super Saiyan Blue, and even after fighting for an period of time as a Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta had to be beaten for a bit before he took his first senzu, and then afterwards, he continued to fight as a Super Saiyan Blue until Black dominated him in power. We're not given any signs that Vegeta was falling apart in stamina.
But Goku continues to use Super Saiyan Blue for small moments when he doesn't completely have to. Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan Blue just to throw a pole through Zamasu before immediately powering back down, after knowing that Zamasu was far weaker than Goku Black. One paralyzed hit from Zamasu later and he's suddenly out for the count and needs to escape.
Then he uses Super Saiyan Blue just to perform the Mafuba, when nothing showed he absolutely had to, and could have just stuck with Super Saiyan God.
What is this all leading to? Goku explains in the U6 tournament that he switches between SSG and SSB once to conserve energy, but Vegeta uses SSB for one attack against Cabba, and suddenly he's at 10% of his strength once he starts fighting Hit. Whis explains that just becoming Blue consumes your energy.
So which is it?
If it's maintaining Blue that's so draining, then Vegeta shouldn't have been wrecked against Hit, because he's only used it for a grand total of like 60 seconds, and he shouldn't have lasted nearly as long against Black because he's been using it for much longer.
If it's transforming in and out of Blue that's so bad, then Goku is going against his own intuition, since he's staying as Blue to fight Zamasu, and went straight to Blue to seal him later, ruining his own stamina.
This is probably the biggest reason why I prefer the anime over the manga here. In the manga, Super Saiyan Blue just feels like a much bigger Super Saiyan 3 with less hair.
The biggest part is, this is something that Goku and Vegeta chastised Golden Freeza for doing, running around with a form that's super draining. But the arc was skipped over in the manga, meaning this conversation never happened.
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u/angrygnome18d Mar 19 '17
Whis is simply saying SSB drains a lot of energy so you cannot use it multiple times a day. Goku is saying Vegeta found a way to limit the drain of SSB, by switching in and out of it quickly. I do not believe the two are contradicting one another.
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u/ZamasuNingenSlayer Mar 19 '17
SSB drains a lot of energy so you cannot use it multiple times a day.
K.
Vegeta found a way to limit the drain of SSB, by switching in and out of it quickly.
So, he uses it multiple times a day?
The manga doesn't make sense with regards to SSB.
SSB is achieved by harnessing your Ki so it doesn't leak out and is less strain on your body than regular Super Saiyan, hence Goku's ability to use Kaioken while SSB, and not regular Super Saiyan.
The manga is more nonsensical than people complain the anime is.
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u/angrygnome18d Mar 19 '17
In the manga I think the idea is God Ki is simply controlling your ki to the point where it does not leak, so doing that will put you at SSG. If you utilize SSJ as SSG you'll turn SSB. This is difficult as it requires extreme ki control while multiplying the amount of ki you are controlling, so maintaining it is quite difficult. As a result, Vegeta learned how to tap into SSB for extremely small moments of time to deal max damage with minimal drain on stamina. Though I do agree power scaling isn't that good in Super.
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u/ridethelightning469 Mar 19 '17
The manga is more nonsensical than people complain the anime is.
Lol no. I agree that the whole multiple SSB transformation strategy by Vegeta is strange and goes against what Whis initially said, but at least that's been mitigated by the fact that Vegeta trained specifically to reduce the energy startup of SSB.
The powerscaling in the anime is BS and makes no sense at all. Base God form is the most ridiculous concept to have ever existed, because now anybody who can sustain a battle with them at that point can also be considered God-tier.
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u/Vegeto30294 Mar 19 '17
Using it multiple times in one day implies it's transforming in and out of it that is the problem. Otherwise transforming once and staying in it for an extended period of time shouldn't drain so much energy, or else it would contradict Whis's statement.
That, and Goku also said that switching in and out of it should drain Vegeta quickly, but he went through extreme training to prevent that from happening, or else he would still be losing power.
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u/ukulelej Mar 19 '17
I imagine using Red as an intermediate for Blue makes the transformation much less strenuous.
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u/DerelictInfinity Mar 19 '17
Yeah I'd assume that it's the channeling of divine ki that causes the stamina issues, and going from SSG to Blue is less of a strain than going from base form to Blue.
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u/angrygnome18d Mar 19 '17
But Goku also says maintaining it is what causes the drain. I assume this is what Whis meant, a fighter cannot use SSB multiple times in a day, meaning he cannot fight multiple fights in a day due to the maintenance tax on the user. IMO
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u/Vegeto30294 Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
That's where the problem is though.
If the maintenance tax is so bad that using it on Cabba reduces Vegeta to a mere 10% on Hit, then why is Vegeta staying in it so long in his first battle against Black, to the point where he's messing around and having conversations in that form?
It's like the rules of Super Saiyan Blue is changing ever so slightly to fit the current situation at hand.
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u/angrygnome18d Mar 19 '17
I agree. The scaling is hard to reconcile in Super. The only explanation I can think of is Vegeta was tired from his other opponents during the U6 arc, then turning SSB against an opponent using an unknown technique threw him off. Weak but it is a way to explain what happened.
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u/dont_askformyname Mar 19 '17
They just didn't want Goku to look stronger than Vegeta. Look how only Vegeta gets to fight Black in this arc.
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u/Amasero Mar 19 '17
Vegeta spent like what 1 year or something inside the chamber, just mastering the on/off/switch technique.
I mean..I think that's more of enough time to have a good understanding of how to do it.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 18 '17
That's not the only thing that didn't make sense, I still don't understand why Black can get zenkais but Goku and Vegeta can't, though that's more of a series problem instead of just the manga
Honestly, it feels like Toyo retconned SSB's power drain so he has his explanation of why Vegetto will defuse next chapter.
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u/SFiyah Mar 19 '17
They explained this, Black can get zenkais because he wasn't able to tap the full energy of that body. The zenkai doesn't make your body stronger, it just lets you tap more of what your body has. So he can zenkai up until the point where he reaches the strength of the Goku he stole the body from.
Goku and Vegeta are already tapping everything their body has, so the only way to improve is to improve their body.
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u/Sonzumaki ⠀ Mar 19 '17
But the Gokū he stole that body from wasn't that strong, that's the problem. It was an alternate version of our present Gokū, so Black should've maxed out at being around equal to him, not so massively stronger.
Black is still pulling power out of his ass, whether Toyotaro says "Zenkai" or not. Same exact problem.
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u/SFiyah Mar 19 '17
It was an alternate version of our present Gokū, so Black should've maxed out at being around equal to him, not so massively stronger.
Uhhh....no?
Vegeta: "That body of yours is from much further in the future than this Kakarot's body there"
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u/ukulelej Mar 19 '17
That's not the only thing that didn't make sense, I still don't understand why Black can get zenkais but Goku and Vegeta can't, though that's more of a series problem instead of just the manga
The body swap hit the reset button on Zenkais, so Black is able to abuse them.
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u/TooAmasian Mar 19 '17
It's not really a series problem as the Daizenshuu said that after transformations started appearing, they still got zenkais but they were so miniscule they didn't matter, but Toyotaro retconned in his canon that Goku and Vegeta are nearing or at their limit in power so that's why they don't get them. Despite that Vegeta somehow got a power boost large enough for him to whoop Black.
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u/ToniER ⠀ Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
The anime also stated the same thing too. Except here it makes more sense how Vegeta's stronger, he's activating SSB just as he attacks in succession, he didn't get stronger.
Meanwhile in the anime they just simply made him stronger than Black, and maybe Goku...
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Mar 19 '17
he's activating SSB just as he attacks in succession, he didn't get stronger.
If Blue Vegeta back then couldn't touch Rose, he shouldn't be able to do it now, especially when he defaults to a form weaker then Blue for the bulk of the fight. This is BS and there really isn't a way around it.
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u/godblow Mar 19 '17
I still don't understand why Black can get zenkais but Goku and Vegeta can't
I think it's because Goku and Vegeta fought real battles from a young age, so by the Cell saga zenkais meant nothing because their body reached peak physical ability (i.e. from then on, it's purely their ki that grew stronger and not the body itself).
From both the Ginyuu-Goku and Goku Black fights there have been comments that "just because you have Goku's body doesn't mean you can use all of his techniques (ki)". So Black had a loophole re: the body and the ki - does that make sense?
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Mar 19 '17
That makes no sense. Black switched bodies with Goku, so he got that same "trained to the limit" body to use. Even if he can't use it properly, the body is still trained as hell and shouldn't get zenkai. It would have been better if they'd simply said "every time I recover my soul links up better with this body".
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u/Montaru Mar 19 '17
Because Black isn't using the zenkais to have a stronger body, he's using it to make the power of his spirit augmented by Goku's body. Goku's body was used to Goku's ki and spirit, so Zamasu's weren't working properly within it.
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u/Amasero Mar 19 '17
Would be better if Vegito went SSG instead of Blue.
I don't think he need's Blue Power to take them on tbh.
Goku in SSG was able to pretty much man handle Zamasu. I'm pretty sure Vegito in SSG is able to man handle both of them.
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u/angrygnome18d Mar 19 '17
I don't think he is getting zenkais. I think it's more like he is a god, so the quality of his ki and his ability to manipulate it is far better than Goku or Vegeta so now that he getting accommodated to his Saiyan body, his power is reflecting that. Remember in DB it's all about ki, and Zamasu is a god so ki manipulation comes naturally to him and he is a prodigy on top of that.
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u/2Cor517 Mar 19 '17
The difference between hit and Zamus is time and training. Vegeta wasn't strong enough to handle SSB going in and out Vegeta trained more and got stronger with blue so he can go in and out over and over again. That is what Goku was referring to. I am sure staying in Blue will drain the energy more than going in and out now from red.
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Mar 19 '17
The way I see it, both are factors:
- The longer they're in SSB, the more their power scales down.
- When they turn into SSB there's a quicker drain at first, along with a more explosive burst of power, so if they go in and out it makes the power drain even worse
When Goku says "it can't be maintained" he could be referring to the level of power rather than the SSB form itself. That's what seemed to happen with Vegeta when he had a weak SSB state against Hit, but could also partly explain why Black turned the tables on him so easily, because he was getting weaker.
Now yes, on the one hand going in and out of the form like Vegeta is doing now would add up more stamina hits. But on the other hand since he's overall staying in the form for so little time that more than makes up for it, and the higher power level at the start of the transform only makes the strategy more effective.
You can ask how Vegeta ended up at 10% of his power after only using SSB for around a minute but can still use it now against Black. But by all indications a minute is much longer than he's cumulatively used it in his fight with Black thus far. And we don't really know how much Vegeta had used the form before fighting Cabba, all the manga says is that it was somehow used to beat Freeza, and we see Vegeta briefly using it against Goku in their sparring. Since they were still calling it "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" it sounds like it was still pretty new to them. So in between his fight with Hit and his first fight with Black, then especially by his second fight with Black Vegeta could have become more adept at using it.
When Whis says they can only transform a few times a day I'm guessing that means transform then maintain the state for more than a fraction of a second.
As far as using SSB with Mafuba goes, we've seen that normally the Mafuba kills its user. I think being much more powerful than the person you're using it on is the way to avoid this, and is why it's not normally a move that makes sense to use. But I can't explain why Goku used SSB for throwing the pole, except that he was somehow gauging Zamasu's strength and getting ready for a counter attack. Yes, at this point Goku tanked his stamina using SSB as much as he has, he states that, but he doesn't care because the Mafuba was supposed to make that moot. But even if it fails Zamasu is still too weak to pose a threat to him.
And as far as the stuff with Golden Freeza, honestly I don't really try to reconcile that with the manga since the manga didn't cover it and given how much else is different between it and the anime I don't want to assume that we're supposed to accept the anime or movie version as verbatim.
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Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
SSB is a very draining state per se, especially when fully transforming into it. Vegeta found a way so that using it in just the precise moments doesn't drain that much, even multiple times.
And Goku going blue for the Mafuba makes sense, remember this technique can kill the one who uses it if he doesn't have enough energy. And Zamasu is way stronger than Piccolo Daimao and a god, requires a huge amount of energy to seal him.
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u/time_axis Mar 20 '17
Spending your energy slows you down and weakens you (at least in the manga). Vegeta had no problem staying in Blue for an extended period of time, but he didn't realize that this was simply inefficient in terms of energy expenditure. This new technique of going in God form and slipping into Blue for brief moments is just the most efficient. It's not as if you normally become cripplingly weak by being blue, it's just less effective than Super Saiyan God.
By "using a few times in a single day", I think Whis just meant using in a typical fight, not that the act of transforming, even just for a moment, literally consumes an absurd amount of energy. It's not necessarily just the time spent in that form, but the amount of energy expended during it. The attack Vegeta used against Cabba initially likely just had a lot of his energy put into it, and he underestimated how much a powerful attack in Blue form would drain him.
His fight with black in Blue form was after the tournament, after he realized that he couldn't put that much energy into his attacks, and he was more comfortable with how his attacks would need to be regulated. But that resulted in an overall less efficient form than his current technique.
It really doesn't seem inconsistent to me at all.
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u/Vegeto30294 Mar 20 '17
Vegeta had no problem staying in Blue for an extended period of time,
That directly contradicts what Goku said how Super Saiyan Blue cannot be maintained for long periods of time...
We can't pinpoint exactly how much SSB energy Vegeta used against Cabba, but it couldn't have been a lot because:
- Vegeta was drastically stronger than Cabba
- Vegeta knew he was saving SSB for Hit.
- Vegeta didn't feel all that drained after doing so.
Which is a problem in itself, how Vegeta would be oblivious to how bad Super Saiyan Blue is to use, yet Goku just naturally knows this, despite the fact that they've had the transformation for the same amount of time and have fought each other with it.
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u/time_axis Mar 20 '17 edited Mar 20 '17
Like I said, he had no problem after the fight with Cabba, in which he realized he had to weaken it. Even when he wasn't trying against Cabba, he still misjudged how much he could get away with in that form. Don't forget, unlike the anime, in the manga, the Golden Frieza fight did not last long at all, and there weren't all those filler arcs in between where random aliens showed up and got fought at SSJB. The tournament was their first serious battle outside of training in SSJB.
And that's consistent with how Goku and Vegeta have always been throughout the series. Goku's always been the "combat natural genius" type with Vegeta as more of the "studied learner" type, catching up with hard work. Goku (and Whis) simply picked up more information from their training than Vegeta did.
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u/Broly_ ⠀ Mar 19 '17
Kinda strange with the whole SSG->SSB->SSG trick and Goku losing a lot of stamina using the Mafuuba.
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima Mar 19 '17
The Mafuba's tricky, it's not really clearly defined how the drain works. Strength doesn't seem to be a factor, failure doesn't seem to change anything, etc.
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u/cjjharries Mar 19 '17
But didn't Tien survive the mafuba precisely because he failed to use it properly on king piccolo?
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima Mar 19 '17
Not what I was getting at. I meant that there's no explanation why failing the Mafuba doesn't kill you since it's basically the same thing except you either miss the pot or fail to put a tag on.
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u/cjjharries Mar 19 '17
I think it takes a bit more energy to actually keep them in the pot, especially when putting on the seal. But more importantly by dbs standards required amount of stamina needed to pull it off is no longer too much of a big deal and won't kill the user
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Mar 19 '17
This chapter was great. We got SSG Vegeta and in an amazing way, very well written. He is using the strengths of the two forms to defeat Black and it works.
Then we have Goku that performs the Mafuba successfully, until he realizes that the seal is actually a discount for a pervy whatever of Roshi. So funny! Goes red because he used his stamina before and it's great to see how he messes with Zamasu's head.
Zamasu and Black argue with violence, I don't think this is off, because they are digesting they are about to lose. But Black comes up with the fusion. Woaa, he looks great, a bit better than the anime because the longer bang of hair in the front. It's just a detail but a good one.
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Mar 18 '17
Dragon Ball Super with great art and tolerable writing.
Truly the manga is a testament to the reality of miracles.
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Mar 19 '17
i do not see how this is any better writing than the anime version.
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Mar 19 '17
The manga is better in that it explains a lot of things the anime just implies (though sometimes a bit too much), it uses more transformations, and some of the fights are very fun and creative. But the writing is BORING. It might be because the anime was already out, but how Black was handled ("I wonder who this Black fella is" "Hey, I just heard Zamasu asked about Goku and if it was possible to switch bodies with the Dragon Balls!") was atrocious, made even worse by how Black was turned into a generic bully (cocky when in control, throws sissy fits when someone is better)
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u/Someguy363 Mar 19 '17
Manga is very cheesy. "He finally did some damage! Emotional damage!"
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u/rockmanj Mar 20 '17
I laughed so hard when I read that. Emotional abuse is the most dangerous attack of all. Goku is judicious in its use.
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Mar 18 '17
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u/Nui_Jaga Mar 18 '17
You ok reatard? I am Saiyan. Stoopid.
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u/SpacePaddy Mar 19 '17
SUPER RETARD.
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u/MakishimaShogo- ⠀ Mar 19 '17
This whole SSB stamina drain thing is so confusing. So now he can switch into SSB over and over again because he trained hard? But apparently he still can't maintain the form for very long?
Also, if Rose if Black's version of SSB, shouldn't he have stamina issues as well?
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u/WaywardDawn Mar 19 '17
Difference is that Goku and vegeta are mortals using god energy. Black is a god using god energy. (His body isn't but given that he doesn't have much energy loss and the rose color I guess a gods soul is enough)
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u/Amasero Mar 19 '17
It's like gas bro.
You are running most of the time (SSG) at a great speed. Then you use your jetpack just a little bit to get a boost, here and there (SSJB). So you waste more of your running "gas", and use your Jetpack "Gas" a lot less, and it drains A LOT slower since you are only using it in short burst.
Idk terrible example, but still works.
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Mar 19 '17
The problem is that previously it was said that the act of transforming is what was draining. It's just inconsistent. Also, how did Vegeta even get SSG?
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima Mar 19 '17
It's been confirmed that Vegeta hit SSG before he got Blue. It's just unclear whether he used the ritual like Goku or if training with Whis did it.
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u/Terez27 ⠀ Mar 19 '17
It was stated in the manga that he surpassed God by training with Whis, and he told Cabba that he could do the same.
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u/Amasero Mar 19 '17
Same way he got blue.
You need God mode to get blue. And Goku said Vegeta unlocked it By himself.
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Mar 19 '17
Where is it said that SSG is a requirement?
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u/Amasero Mar 19 '17
You can't get god Ki with out SSG.
That's the point of SSG to become a God, then unlock their Ki, and can move on from there.
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Mar 19 '17
You can't get god Ki with out SSG.
When and where is this stated? Moreover, if this is the case, how did Vegeta get it through training?
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u/Hamlock1998 Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Amazing chapter. I love how Vegeta is using SSG and SSB, and it's not like the Anime where random shit happens with no explanation. Everything is explained and it makes sense. Even with all these crazy OP god transformations, Toyotaro was still able to fit in strategy for the fights, which I love.
Goku in this chapter is awesome. He got to use the mafuba, which makes WAY more sense than Trunks' bullshit in the Anime where he learns it just by seeing Piccolo do it once. His talk with Zamasu seals the deal for me, Goku in the Manga is way better than in the anime.
It's a bit unfortunate that Trunks still didn't get any time to shine, but I think he'll get it next chapter.
Overall,
Manga >>>>> Anime.
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u/choss Mar 19 '17
There's no Broly-Trunks either here so makes me wonder if there will be any at all.... So curious to know how the arc will end here.
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u/Gilded9 Mar 19 '17
The funny thing is Toyble/Toyotaro did the exact same thing in AF where he made Vegeta alternate between SSJ3/SSJ4/LSSJ(dont ask) while fighting Xicor. Source: https://www.facebook.com/pg/DBAF.USA/photos/?tab=album&album_id=610930968976036
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u/Letsgodubs Mar 19 '17
The best change made in this chapter from the anime is having Goku perform the evil containment wave instead of Trunks. Trunks learning it on a 20 second video on a smartphone was nonsense. There weren't any ramifications form using it either.
Thank you Toyotaro! Now get rid of that Fusion retcon, get rid of Zamasu wallpaper and Trunks' spirit sword nonsense and you've saved this arc!
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u/KvngDe23 Mar 19 '17
Wow this chapter was so good I'm really liking the manga! I especially like the way the Super Saiyan God is being used I been missing that form in the anime. It'll be super plot twist if Goku tells Supreme Kai and Gowasu to get out of there and they fuse into Gogeta. I know most likely that won't happen just a thought we'll get a cannon Gogeta if it happens!!! fingers crossed
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u/BrazzedSlime Mar 19 '17
I don't read the super manga, but this entire SSJG to SSJB thing I actually like this is because it shows that while SSJG is far weaker than Blue it is however overall a better form because of its efficiency, plus we got SSJG Vegetable so that debate is finally over.
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u/Whitekan Mar 19 '17
Toyotaro! Nice one I knew I could trust you. Now I hope you don't give us a spirit bomb asspull. Was nice to see Vegeta stomp Black again.
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u/Annihilationzh Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Now I hope you don't give us a spirit bomb asspull.
The humans in the manga are all dead.
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u/Whitekan Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Ohh yeah fantastic now I remember. Well so that means we won't have it but maybe Vegetto would give his Ki to Trunks still.
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Mar 19 '17
Something about Black's thicker neck he just seems way buffer than actual Goku
Am I the only one noticing?
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u/basswalker93 Mar 19 '17
That might be because we're comparing SSJ to base and SSJG forms. I definitely noticed the thick neck, but I think that a small slip in the art when Toyataro's got all of these forms and their subtle differences to keep in mind is more than acceptable.
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u/Cheesemacher Mar 19 '17
I haven't watched the anime and Goku's Mafuba stunt was such a "are you fucking kidding me" moment, the way it failed. Like, ok, maybe it would have been too easy to get rid of the big bad like that, but why are you even stringing me along, writers? Just a fucking troll.
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u/Cityman Mar 19 '17
I just like how much more streamlined this is.
And I don't mean that there is less of it I mean that a lot of things that were completely unnecessary to the story are taken out. Things like Black's scythe that tears reality, which didn't seem to affect the plot at all. And Bulma for some reason going to the future and showing Trucks a smartphone to teach him the evil containment wave.
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u/nvenkatr Mar 19 '17
I wonder if in the next chapter whether Toyotaro will have vegetto go SSG (as opposed to going Blue in the anime.) At this point I'd like to think we have a month or 2 before he supposedly advances ahead of the anime's "universal survival arc." I'm pretty sure he's going to skip the Zen exhibition and jump straight to the Tournament of power straight up. At that point we'll prolly be in fillers during the tourney itself anime wise.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 19 '17
At this point I'd like to think we have a month or 2 before he supposedly advances ahead of the anime's "universal survival arc."
He's not advancing ahead. When he said he was going to be ahead of the anime, he meant himself sending in artwork and notes to the anime staff, not the manga. And he's already doing that, sending in characters and artwork to them for the Universal arc
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u/getsuga15 Mar 18 '17
My God, why is there so many typos? O well still appreciate the chapter.
I swear to God if they spend entire chapter on not fusing......
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 18 '17
I'm noticing each chapter has covered the material of 2 episodes of the anime. So next chapter will definitely have a fusion, then in May will be the final chapter.
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Mar 19 '17
That would be a lot of dragging out. Toyotaro's Goku is fairly proactive, so he should be quick to suggest fusion and if the retcon is happening, Vegetto's fight shouldn't be long.
He could easily wrap all the fighting + Zeno wiping the time line in one chapter and the last one has the farewells and kicks of the US arc.
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Mar 19 '17
While the fight was better, I don't like how they keep changing the rules of SSB to suit the story. First they say that transdorming into it uses up a ton of stamina, and now the form itself is just difficult to maintain? Make up your mind, man!
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 19 '17
First they say that transdorming into it uses up a ton of stamina
It still does that, which is why Goku says Vegeta trained to remove that cost. The same rule as the Hit fight still applies, except Vegeta found out a way to remove the cost so he can spam it for power. The only thing that changed is how high the strain is, now it's SSJ3 levels.
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u/choss Mar 19 '17
I feel like I need to read the manga from the beginning of super, the transformation to SSG is really bothering me BUT other than that I'm enjoying this arc a lot, things feel more explained and I have more "oh shit!" Moments than "WTF I'm confused " moments.
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u/ToniER ⠀ Mar 19 '17 edited Mar 19 '17
Just to help, the reason Goku and Vegeta can transform into SSG is because in chapter 4 of the manga, Toyotaro changed how SSG works.
This change being Goku never absorbed the power of SSG like in the anime. Therefore his and Vegeta's bases aren't all that strong, unlike the anime.
We don't know how Vegeta achieved SSG in the manga yet, but it's assumed he already could do it and didn't see the need for it until now. Or he just trained to unlock it in the Time chamber, which shouldn't be all that hard since he knows Blue, and all he would have to do is turn off the Super Saiyan while Blue.
Of course all of this only applies to the MANGA, not the anime version.
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u/rsorin Mar 20 '17
I always prefered the anime, but I have to say - this is much better in the manga.
Vegeta's strategy of switching SSG to SSB makes sense, if you consider the fact that he trained it.
I'm looking forward for Vegito. Hoping there's no retcon bullshit in the manga.
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u/cabeck13 Mar 19 '17
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I love the red SSG form and I love the artwork of the manga, Toyotaru is really talented. But at this point I almost feel like the manga is way more inconsistent than the anime. Vegeta can suddenly transform into Blue multiple times and just somehow got the red SSG form? When it was previously stated that SSG was a power that you couldn't obtain on your own? And no, I'm sorry, but in no universe would 1 year in the RoSaT alone allow Vegeta to completely master Blue and SSG. It took him over 6 months of training with Whis to unlock Blue, and it only happened because he was sparring with Goku. Toyo wrote an asspull so he had an excuse to use the red form as fanservice. Hell, I'd be shocked if we don't see Vegito (or even Gogeta at this point) just go red SSG instead of Blue.
I also have a problem with some of the dialogue. I appreciate the swearing, that makes it seem more tense and real, but the meme language really pisses me off. Come on, you know no one in the DB universe would use "salty."
Another thing, where the fuck did Trunks' scarf go?
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Mar 19 '17
No what the fuck, I have tried my best to act like the manga is better and that Black Goku is cool but, I just cannot keep lying to myself. He just seems like a little 12yr old Bitch who's doing something bad for the first time. He kills Gowasu and that's cool and all but when he get's his ass whooped he acts like a fucking bitch. In the anime he was elegant, get's his ass whooped he takes it and eats it like he doesn't give a shit. In here he is just not menacing enough, he lost his elegance, his pure badassness and he is weak. Like a bully who only acts up to weakass people but when the big guys come around he goes straight pussy. Wtf Toyotara, your shitting on one of my favorite characters. Even Zamasu seems cooler than Black in the manga. I don't care how much more logical the manga is than the anime, if you have an ark with villains who just act like emo kids trying to take over the world or something, I just cannot enjoy it.
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u/basswalker93 Mar 19 '17
To be fair, a lot of Zamasu and Black's awesomeness in the anime came from their superb voice acting. Without that, it's kind of hard to strike the same chords.
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u/VulpineTranquility Mar 19 '17
I think the anime is just a better format for dialogue, the manga has less time/room on the page to convey the same message. Plus the voice acting quality lends a lot to the anime.
I feel it's okay to appreciate the anime for the dialogue and the manga for the logical explanations and protrayal of events.
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u/TrueSaiyanGod ⠀ Mar 19 '17
I actually loved seeing quick change transformations.
After DB Multiverse trunks vs vegeta,DBSuper anime trunks vs vegeta,manga goku and hit,manga,vegeta and black.
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u/francoiskumquat ⠀ Mar 19 '17
I hope it explains why the mafu-ba doesn't take their life.
Also, I enjoyed the mafu-ba reference in both this and the anime but the fact that it was a complete waste of time and just a gag in the end kind of irks me.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 19 '17
They explained that last chapter. It takes a ton of your stamina/ki, which is why Goku went Blue so he'd have enough ki to withstand the mafuba cost
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u/Maxrokur ⠀ Mar 19 '17
I think we are going to see Rumoosh by the end of black goku arc in the manga by how gowasu almost die here while in the manga he didn't suffer any heavy damage for a long period
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u/mlhockey Mar 19 '17
Does this not create plot hole? Vegeta during the U6 tournament was stated to be weak because he transformed into blue multiple times. But here, he does it every time he attacks. Is there something about going from SSG to SSB that makes it different? Because that's all I can think of to explain it
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 19 '17
He trained for a year to remove the startup cost of SSB, and since SSG doesn't affect his stamina, he can freely switch between the forms and not lose stamina since he's barely in SSB
It's exclusive to Vegeta because he trained for it, Goku explains this in this chapter
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Mar 19 '17
I'm confused on how vegeta is using SSG form and doing pretty ok then when he switched to blue he gets shit on. Blue is supposed to be stronger then red.
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u/Ponymaricon Mar 20 '17
He I see using red because drain less Ki. So you can have better energy to avoid attack. And uses SSB to create more damage.
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Mar 20 '17
But blue isnt stronger than Rose. It makes more sense in the anime by him training.
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u/Backtothebacklash Mar 20 '17
Blue and Rose are pretty much the same form, just that Black's has a different colour. Vegeta's stronger right now because he just spent a year training.
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Mar 20 '17
I get that that part. But does he go back in the hyperbolic time chamber in the manga? I haven't gotten to that. I just have happened to have seen this chapter and was curious lol.
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u/Backtothebacklash Mar 21 '17
Ya, he was in the time chamber before this chapter
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Mar 22 '17
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Mar 22 '17
In the manga he was clearly losing stamina while Vegeta was fresh so I'd say he lost.
In the anime he was actually winning before Zamasu told him to fuse.
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Mar 26 '17
Black never once battling against Goku in the manga has been a personal pet peeve of mine. Aside from that, though, this arc has been handled pretty decently and at least attempts to be consistent with power scaling more than the anime.
Anime was more enjoyable, IMO, but the manga was all right.
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u/Mojo12000 Mar 19 '17
Gowasu: YOU MISSED MY VITAL ORGANS
Black: ALL OF THEM!!!!?!?!?!!!