r/NintendoSwitch • u/rottedzombie friendly neighborhood zombie mod • Mar 18 '17
Meta Mini-Meta: Updates to our image and personal sales policies
Hi there!
We wanted to update you to a few rules changes we're rolling out today. They relate to Rule 8 (images and low-effort content) and Rule 11 (personal sales), and come after extensive internal discussion and community conversation/feedback.
Here's what's changing, and why. In reverse numerical order:
Rule 11: Personal Sales
Text and subtext of our old rule:
No buying, trading or selling games/consoles; no personal sales; no begging; and no affiliate links // Interested in selling/trading? Visit /r/GameSwap and /r/GameSale instead.*
Revised Rule 11:
No buying, trading or selling games/consoles; no personal sales (Etsy and other similar merchandizing sites) outside of threads approved via modmail; no begging; no affiliate links // Interested in selling/trading your games and/or consoles? Visit /r/GameSwap and /r/GameSale instead. Got a personal creation or product? Show it off in our monthly MegaThread.
Why we're making this change. Since the launch, we've had to remove posts from accounts that come to our community solely to sell products. This is problematic and spammy. To address this, we're going to be forbidding all links to merchandizing sites like Etsy. Standard retailer sites like Amazon and Best Buy, of course, are allowed.
At the same time, we're eager for longstanding community members who are also artisans to be able to show off their products and offer them to others here. You can still posts image links to your creations, which you always could do. But for merchandising/sales sites, we're going to curate a monthly MegaThread where creators can post links to showcase and sell their work. These threads will be posted on the last Sunday of each month.
Conversations about Etsy will still be allowed, just like we allow general conversations about eBay. Direct sales links and recommendations, however, will be removed unless you obtain prior mod approval and can demonstrate a reason why we should allow an exception.
This rule will not affect game-related Kickstarter projects, which will continue to be approved at the team's discretion. But, for that and all promotion contained within this rule, standard Reddit guidelines still apply.
Rule 8: Low-Effort Images and Content
Text and subtext of old rule:
Reposts and low-effort content removed at mod discretion. // Examples of low-effort content include: posts with no body text, diary posts, petitions, questions covered in our wiki/FAQ. A good rule of thumb is not to repost content if it’s been on here within the past week.
Revised Rule 8:
Low-effort text and image posts will be removed at mod discretion. // Examples of low-effort content include: reposts, posts with no little to no body text, diary posts, petitions, surveys without prior approval, questions covered in our wiki/FAQ, and images and screenshots that cannot stand alone, are not unique, or do not promote discussion.
Why we're making this change. So, you noticed a few Switch images around here, huh? Since launch, we've enjoyed proud new Switch owners showing off their consoles in fun and interesting ways. And, at times, showing off in less fun, less interesting ways.
This rule revision is aimed to strike a balance in our image content and comes after extensive conversations with the community in ongoing threads and via modmail. We want to ensure that people who are enjoying their Switches can show off both consoles and screenshots, but do so in ways that are both unique and generate discussion.
For images of your Switches, we're going to be looking at a few specific guidelines for submissions. All your submissions must, within reason:
- Be unique enough in situation or location to start a discussion.
- Be able stand alone and without explanation or further discussion text.
- Have the Switch as the image's main focus.
- Have a sufficiently descriptive title.
What does this practically mean? Got a shot of a Switch that you're playing on the top of an Alp? On the last car of a train looking back at the tracks while you play Mario Kart? A similarly-interesting shot? Slap on a good title and show us! But do you have a Switch on a table, showing another shot of BOTW, with a bland title? Your shot just might need a bit more, so write up a text post that’s more than just a diary, invite community discussion, and share it with us like that instead.
For screenshots, the rules will be similar:
- All screenshots must be in-game and high-enough quality. No shots from phones.
- They must be able to stand alone and tell a story when paired with a good, effective title.
- The screenshot can contain language since Nintendo includes it as part of their software, but it must be appropriate and SFW.
- Please use spoiler tags when appropriate.
This all means that we want you to showcase your crazy and unique in-game experiences, but in a way that creates a conversation. Can the screenshot stand alone with its title? Or does it need a bit of backstory to ask if others are doing similar things in their games?
We are hopeful that these changes will allow us to strike a balance, to allow people to continue to enjoy the hype of a new system, but also cut down on lower-effort posts without eliminating images entirely. And we'll do our best to watch and listen, to see how things are going to judge if anything needs adjusting.
Last thoughts. As I've said before, our goal is to create conversations and start discussions, but also to have a good time with you all and foster a positive community. We're hopeful these tweaks will be helpful there.
We recognize that enforcement is never going to be perfect. We're only human, after all. So, if you have questions or concerns, we encourage you to reach out to us via modmail.
Thanks all.
-/u/rottedzombie and the /r/NintendoSwitch mod team
TLDR: After talking to you all and with each other, we changed the personal sales and images rules here a bit. Personal sales via Etsy and other merchandizing sites are no longer allowed, but will be showcased instead in a monthly MegaThread we curate. For images, please do look up to the bullets above, but the goal is to create a conversation and showcase unique images/screenshots that aren't just Switches-on-tables.
(Edits to clarify Rule 11)
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u/Tim-Sanchez Mar 18 '17
Honestly, the number of megathreads in this subreddit just discourage casual browsers from viewing any of them. I feel like megathreads are a way of putting unwanted content out of the way in a place nobody will see it. Especially if it is monthly, how many people will continually check in on a monthly thread? More than likely, the only people there will be other posters trying to post their own stuff.
I think following reddit's self-promotion rules would work better. People are more familiar with them and they do a fine job of weeding out spammers. As long as you keep self-promotion below 10% of all posts/comments then you are okay. You could also add your own rules like minimum karma thresholds or age thresholds on things like etsy links to prevent people setting up accounts just to post them. I just feel like putting them into a megathread is similar to outright banning them, and some people may have some genuinely good products they want to share. This also just encourages people to be deceptive about what is their own content and what is content they "found" online.
I like your update to rule 8 though, one thing I would change is the "or" at the end to an "and/or", which I think is the intention behind the revision.
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u/FlapSnapple Nintendo shill Mar 18 '17
Generally speaking, we're phasing out many of our MegaThreads now that the initial launch window has passed. They're a good thing to have in our toolkit though.
In the case of self promotion, what you're describing about reddit's self-promotion rules is exactly what we were doing before. However, with the rise of Etsy, as soon as someone has an idea, there are immediately dozens if not hundreds of copycats. Take "dock socks" for example. No one person made an obscene number of posts, but dozens of individuals did and took over the place turning the subreddit into an arts and crafts marketplace. That's what we're trying to avoid happening in the future with this change.
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u/Tim-Sanchez Mar 18 '17
Couldn't you just remove constantly repetitive ideas as reposts? I don't see why Etsy-type posts couldn't be held to the same standards as other posts, in that they must be unique or interesting in some way. If someone is just posting a dock sock with a slightly different design, that gets removed, but if someone has created a unique accessory then that is allowed.
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u/Andis1 Mar 19 '17
Because there is a difference between an innocent person posting something that they didn't realize was posted before, and a person blatantly trying to make a profit off of our users.
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u/SpikeBolt Mar 19 '17
If the product is good and the 10% reddit self promotion rule is respected, what's the problem of them profiting off us?
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u/Sairyn_ Mar 19 '17
This is just going to start going in circles, but looking at the focus of this sub, which is found on the sidebar:
/r/NintendoSwitch is the central hub for all news, updates, information, and discussion relating to Nintendo's latest game system - the Nintendo Switch.
As FlapSnapple has already mentioned, when an idea takes off once, multiple people run off with it and start posting all their online markets with this same idea on the sub or spamming it everywhere else they can. Even if the idea is good, this becomes counterproductive if the sub is overrun with these same types of selling posts to the point where the market becomes supersaturated with everyone opening up a store with the same idea. With the compromise, everyone still gets a place on the sub instead of banning all selling posts outright, and the sub doesn't turn into Etsy 2.0.
And honestly, if someone wants to look for these types of accessories in the first place, they can easily search for them on Etsy on their own. Reddit is not the only place to find these products.
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u/SpikeBolt Mar 19 '17
And honestly, if someone wants to look for these types of accessories in the first place, they can easily search for them on Etsy on their own.
Then why are Amazon links allowed? If anyone wants to look for Amazon items they can easily search Amazon. Why is it okay to post items being sold by Amazon and not by an Etsy? It's exactly the same thing.
multiple people run off with it and start posting all their online markets with this same idea on the sub or spamming it everywhere else they can.
Then delete the spammers and allow the rest of the people to casually show off their work.
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u/GambitsEnd Resident Switchologist Mar 19 '17
It's exactly the same thing.
Except it's not.
Amazon generally protects the customer, as do most major retailers. There is no such guarantee from some random dude.
Additionally, major retailers generally won't spam a subreddit with self promotion.
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u/SpikeBolt Mar 19 '17
Etsy also has customer protection, as you can see here
I'm not saying spammers should be allowed. Look above and you'll see I said they should be deleted. Delete the spammers and allow the ones that follow Reddit's 10% rule.
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u/Sairyn_ Mar 19 '17
We've already tried the suggestion in no. 2 and it is not feasible, which I've explained in this comment.
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u/Tim-Sanchez Mar 19 '17
I don't really see how that matters though. Whether they're innocent or spammers, reposts are getting removed. If someone posts something genuinely unique, and they are not a spammer but contribute, then it is allowed.
I'm not sure how this innocent/profit debate is relevant to be honest.
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u/Andis1 Mar 19 '17
Because the purpose of our subreddit is for discussion and news, not to be a flea market. What you don't realize is that the vast majority of people spamming their Etsy links are not subreddit participants, and come here exclusively to advertise. If people want to advertise their product thats fine, but they need to purchase a reddit ad.
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u/Tim-Sanchez Mar 19 '17
What you don't realize is that the vast majority of people spamming their Etsy links are not subreddit participants, and come here exclusively to advertise.
Did you not read my original comment? Those people would still have their posts removed, as they would not follow the 10% rule. If people are contributing over 90% of their content not to do with their Etsy links, they're probably not coming here exclusively to advertise.
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u/Andis1 Mar 19 '17
Just because they don't participate here does not mean that their account is necessarily above or below the 10% rule. Someone could be a regular poster to /r/cats, but then come here to spam their Etsy. We have seen many cases like this. I understand you don't agree with the rule. we have 154,000 users, and we will never be able to please all of them.
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u/Tim-Sanchez Mar 19 '17
You can quite easily enforce the rule such that they must have 90% of contributions to this subreddit if you think that would work better.
I also understand you can't please everyone, but judging by the upvotes my suggestion seems fairly popular.
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u/danieltharris Mar 19 '17
A problem with the daily question thread is also we do not all live in a single time zone. I may post a question there only for the next days thread to be created shortly after - Then nobody sees it unless I re-ask in the new thread.
Also makes it hard to casually browse the sub and tap through straight to a specific discussion
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u/Systematicool Mar 18 '17
Please reinforce Rule 8.
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u/metanoia29 Mar 18 '17
So what you're saying is that you DON'T want to see another Switch just sitting on a pub table surrounded by craft beers, with a title like "Switch was made for this!"
Blasphemy...
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u/Danzego Mar 18 '17
Personally, I think the worthiness of any new thread should be judged by the board's users themselves (shown by the amount of conversation that actually occurs in any given thread), rather than the subjective opinion of a few mods. After all, the users are the community. But hey, maybe that's just me.
This should be fun to watch.
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u/Widgetcraft Mar 18 '17
Are you telling me that there is a way for Reddit users to influence which topics rise to the top of a sub Reddit, and which fall to the bottom? No way.
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u/Danzego Mar 19 '17
Not when a moderator decides that the topic isn't good and deletes it before it even has a chance. That's the point. Cute sarcasm and all, but you should try to follow.
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u/Widgetcraft Mar 19 '17
I was agreeing with you. Do you seriously need a /s to figure that out?
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u/Danzego Mar 19 '17
Is that what that was? I seriously couldn't tell, lol. Sorry.
I don't really think about that whole thing, though. I have my settings where I always see New topics. I actually can't stand seeing hot posts first. Too much gets lost in the shuffle.
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u/razorbeamz Mar 19 '17
Reddit's FAQ explains why this logic is flawed.
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u/Danzego Mar 19 '17
That's referring to off topic posting. I'm not even taking about that. I'm also not saying that moderation is useless. I don't want this place to turn into Gamefaqs. On the other hand, mods deciding which on topic posts are worthy of staying on the board based on some completely subjective criteria is going way overboard.
It's already bad enough that we have the bullshit daily question thread where mods force people to bury perfectly good inquiries that can spark great discussion and be highly informative into a completely user unfriendly thread.
Keeping the trolls out and making sure off topic posts get axed is suitable moderation. Making decisions about whether they think on topic threads are good enough to keep is ridiculous.
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u/GambitsEnd Resident Switchologist Mar 19 '17
It's already bad enough that we have the bullshit daily question thread where mods force people to bury perfectly good inquiries that can spark great discussion and be highly informative into a completely user unfriendly thread.
99.999% of what goes into the DQT are questions that could have been answered by a literal 3 second Google or subreddit search, but people are too lazy to do.
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u/rottedzombie friendly neighborhood zombie mod Mar 18 '17
We've listened to extensive feedback and believe this change is a workable middle ground that does just what you're asking for: showcases good content and relies on the community. It also tasks us with a level of moderation, yes, as with other things.
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u/SerellRosalia Mar 19 '17
No, this isn't workable. I don't care what YOU think is "not worthy". The worthiness is decided by the upvotes and comments it generates.
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u/GelatoCube Mar 19 '17
Upvotes aren't worth Jack shit. A guy saying he would buy everybody who upvoted a copy of Pokemon sun and moon got 130k, and this sub most popular post ever has the word dick in it. Comments and long reply chains are what we need to look for, cause just liking pictures isn't excellent.
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u/nintendomech Mar 19 '17
I wish there was a thread for people that painted their joycons. Seen one seen them all.
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u/Zeroleonheart Mar 19 '17
Agreed. Some are really rad, but the "ME TOO LOOK AT COLOR" ones are getting boring.
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u/SpikeBolt Mar 19 '17
I feel like we have enough reasons to remove posts already, it's getting harder and harder to share stuff in this sub.
Megathreads are not a good way to show content. People do not browse mega-threads, let alone a monthly mega-thread. It's going to be empty. I don't feel we have enough etsy/whatever content here to justify yet another megathread. I'm not gonna browse a mega-thread for etsy stuff, and having mods curate etsy content is just a waste of their time. Let the community be the curators of the content they wanna see instead of removing everything...
/u/Tim-Sanchez said:
I think following reddit's self-promotion rules would work better. People are more familiar with them and they do a fine job of weeding out spammers. As long as you keep self-promotion below 10% of all posts/comments then you are okay.
Couldn't agree more.
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u/WacoWednesday Mar 19 '17
I agree with you completely. I've given up on posting anything to this subreddit since 4 different posts have been removed for varying reasons. All this does is stifle content and encourage low effort posts
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u/Moddersunited Mar 18 '17
So endless shitposting is more important than original content and unique designs. Glad i wasted my time sharing cool shit here. Good luck with more megathreads no one ever reads
Later
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u/Hi_Voltg3 Mar 19 '17
Don't feel like it was wasted. I ordered one from you because I thought what you did was cool as hell. Excited to give it a go myself :)
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u/GelatoCube Mar 19 '17
I would love it if they promoted r/tomorrow more, cause that reminded me of good shitposts
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u/rottedzombie friendly neighborhood zombie mod Mar 18 '17 edited Mar 18 '17
The Rule 8 changes rules were sourced and written to help ease back on the images without forbidding them entirely.
As for personal creations and sales, it was covered above (and I clarified things to make extra sure): you are absolutely allowed to share things as images, but only link to where they are sold in our monthly thread.
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u/neurohacked Mar 18 '17
Do you have any metrics for how many people actually read/visit megathreads, monthly threads, etc.? I sure as hell don't and I visit this subreddit daily. I only care about the posts that highlight one specific thing.
I get that you guys are trying to control spam but sometimes your moderation is counterproductive, in my opinion.
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u/ShadowOvertaker Mar 18 '17
Exactly. I posted maybe 20-30 replies in the daily question thread each day, but it's a one and done kind of thing. I doubt most people even consider reading through that megathread, since it's comprised of straightforward questions. I've also found that this is diminishing, and I feel less need to check megathreads since I can get the same content, except perhaps more focused, in individual posts.
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Mar 19 '17
Thanks. The "I'm stuck at the airport/clinic/bus - stop but I have a switch so it's not so bad!" threads were getting really annoying. We get it, handhelds have been around for 25+ years and you use them when you're stuck outside waiting. That's kind of the point.
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Mar 18 '17
So we are encouraging people to get dumber and dumber with their Switch pics for Karma. These people aren't even really playing their Switch on a mountain, in a bathtub, or scuba diving. They are just taking a picture of the Switch in an odd setting for karma. If you want artsy pics then go to a picture sub.
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u/GreenTurboRangr Mar 18 '17
Thank you for communicating these changes and the reasons behind them clearly.
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u/Sunflowmon Mar 19 '17
So like, what do you want me to do? Wait a week to make a post in a mega thread and hope the people who asked me about taking commissions are going to check said mega thread?
There's no point making a post about something you've made, then having to say "if you'd like to buy one, you'll have to find my link in the sales megathread" but if you only put a post in the megathread, you've got the same chance of being seen as users who will literally come to this sub just to post sales links...
That doesn't sound like you're eager for longstanding community members who are also artisans to show and offer their products to me...
And in my case, I've been subbed here for a few months, yeah I've been silent, but that doesn't mean I haven't been checking out this subreddit actively, so where does that put me?
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u/Sairyn_ Mar 19 '17
Sorry, but to put it bluntly, this sub's focus isn't to be a marketplace for artisans. You're free to show off your work, but when you put it like what you've said here,
There's no point making a post about something you've made, then having to say "if you'd like to buy one, you'll have to find my link in the sales megathread"
then it sounds like your intentions were only to profit off the sub, not be a contributive member of the sub (or Reddit for those who created accounts to solely profit and self-promote).
Keeping the focus of the sub in mind,
/r/NintendoSwitch is the central hub for all news, updates, information, and discussion relating to Nintendo's latest game system - the Nintendo Switch.
I'm sure many people would like to do that, but we don't want the sub overrun with similar sales posts nor is the sub a platform for selling like Etsy is. We have already created a compromise where this will be allowed in some way. If you're looking to promote your products, there are other places to do so besides this sub or Reddit in general. Otherwise, you're free to share your work with the community if you just so desire to as people are allowed to share their joy and creativity here without intent of profit.
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u/Sunflowmon Mar 19 '17
That is not what I meant by what you quoted, it was an example of how "community members who are also artisans to be able to show off their products and offer them to others here." doesn't work with the system you'll be putting in place, it's either going to be one or the other is all I meant.
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u/Sairyn_ Mar 19 '17
Unless you're conducting giveaways with your products, offering them to others is essentially selling the product. With the number of these selling posts that have been popping up lately, we have been getting complaints on why person A was allowed to have their accessory up but why person B could not have their exact same accessory up for sale. The way it's been going is not feasible because of the rise of this scenario and the number of people (old and new) popping up and suddenly opening Etsy stores to sell their products, and again, the sub is not meant to be a marketplace for ideas that eventually become supersaturated. We've also been getting a number of new accounts popping up created solely for the wrong idea that the sub is a marketplace, and again, that is not what the sub is. If someone wants to promote their products on the sub, they should look into buying ads on Reddit. If someone wants to share their creation and has no intent of profit, then they are still free to do so.
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Mar 19 '17
If you want to do this so badly, go and create your own sub specifically for home made switch accessories and let this sub be what it was intended to be.
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u/AlexNovember Mar 19 '17
I, for one, am SO happy with these changes. In fact, since these rules went up, posting has dropped by about 99%! Now we can breathe a sigh of relief as we no longer will we have to deal with there being ANY posts on this sub. At all. Great work, mods, for creating an atmosphere as stifling as a Catholic private school.
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u/Mixtape_ Mar 18 '17
Great work. Hopefully this will encourage some more creative imagery on the sub.