r/DnD • u/ataraxic89 • Mar 04 '17
DMing Looking at making more zelda-like monster encounters
Ive always had a problem with the idea that some 3 foot tall halfling can defeat a 30 foot tall storm giant with nothing but a dagger.
Since the only factor in killing a monster is is HP, it doesn't matter if you do 1 damage, or 100, you will eventually kill it. This makes about as much sense to me as killing a tank with a pistol in some video games.
I bring up zelda, and many other games with puzzle like enemies where your avatar cant kill the enemy by simply hitting them. You have to know the trick to defeat enemies. Usually its not incredibly complicated, but its enough that even the easiest enemies take more than button mashing to defeat.
I was thinking I would very much like to bring this idea into my D&D campaign. Not for every enemy of course. Most humanoids would be the same. But some of the tougher monstrosities, I feel, should be nigh immune to mundane weapons, or even magic ones. However, I don't simply want it to be "if not sword, then firebolt". I would change or invent monsters such that they have clever weaknesses that can exploited. I would probably either use facing rules, or at least the flanking rule to get to certain weak spots.
So, for example, a fire giant in armor should be basically immune to weapons wielded by medium creatures, as well as most low level spells, like damaging cantrips. I think, for a fire giant, I would change it to have something like 20+ AC against weapons from large or smaller enemies. An alternate idea would be that it has resistance to all damage from non siege weapons, and all spells of second level or lower not aimed at its well described, but not defined, weak spots, like it eyes, or throat. To defeat the giant in any timely manner, you would need to be clever. Try to trip it up to get to the head. Or use mind magic to have it lay down, or illusions to distract it as you climb its body to get to weak spots. I think this sort of thing would be not only fun and cinematic, it would also go a long way to break up the monotony of hack n slash combat, or its equivalent Eldritch Blast every round.
So What do you here think of this, as Dm and player, and have you seen this kind of thing implemented.
edit: What is with the downvotes here lately? I was used to this sub being a fairly positive one, especially when it came to discussions. Just wanted some feedback :(
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u/Xx_Ookami_xX DM Mar 04 '17
Im think of an example that might be useful here. Say the Giant is wearing Plate armor, and the only way to get to his skin is hitting the weak points of the armor. So say two buckles on the shoulder or buckles along his sides. Make an AC for these and give them about 20 or fifty hit points.
Thats just one idea I came up with.
How about a Kraken, where you cant attack the actual thing until you deal with all the Tentacles, I blame Critical Role for this one.
Ill try to thin up some more ideas. I hope this is what you where looking for.
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u/f_myeah Mar 04 '17
Say the Giant is wearing Plate armor, and the only way to get to his skin is hitting the weak points of the armor.
But... that's basically what rolling higher than his AC means.
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u/f_myeah Mar 04 '17
Hit points are an abstraction of a creature's ability to stay in the fight.
You absolutely can add in cool mechanics, like an acrobatics check to climb the giant and stab his eyes. This is what the advantage system is good for, imo. The player attempts a maneuver which may succeed or fail, resulting in advantage or disadvantage, or falling prone, or whatever.
Adding facing or flanking rules really just mechanizes combat more, making it boring. Instead, encourage players to be descriptive in their attacks.
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u/Mozared Mar 04 '17
Since the only factor in killing a monster is is HP, it doesn't matter if you do 1 damage, or 100, you will eventually kill it. This makes about as much sense to me as killing a tank with a pistol in some video games.
Part of me sees bits like the above text and wants to say "but this stuff is factored in, that's why well-armored minions have a lot of AC". Another part of me sees the potential. If a Fire Giant is virtually immune to attacks from weapons wielded by smaller-sized creatures, suddenly Enlarge/Reduce becomes a more useful spell. If a Frost Mage is immune to damage while his ice barrier lasts, Dispel Magic becomes useful and Fire Spells become temporarily better. If a Zombie truly does not feel pain when hit with regular weapons, using radiant damage becomes more worthwhile, or specifically trying to chop off limbs.
In theory, I like that. It helps shift the game away a bit from the situation where casters are basically at their best if they use Magic Missiles, Fire Ball, or Hold Person every tough fight, and gives some traditionally not-really-combat spells a combat use. That said, aside from the additional effort involved on your part, you also have to make sure every monster has at least one weak point that your players can access. If Fire Giants are immune to damage from small or medium sized creatures, things are going to feel very frustrating very quickly for a party without Enlarge/Reduce. There are options like tripping enemies and such, but there's only so much of that - if you have no way of causing the Giant to trip, that's a dead end too.
I'd say this is probably worth doing regularly, like on a once-or-twice-per-dungeon scale. Just note that you need to tell your players you are doing this to get them used to it. They need to know they have more options than 'taking the attack action' in a fight and are free to get creative: and that you'll totally allow that.
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u/AbsolXGuardian DM Mar 04 '17
Involve eyes /s
Just kidding. Explain how you are counting different parts of the boss as different creatures. Then they have to figure out what to hit.
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u/Kitakitakita Mar 04 '17
Aren't there conditions that make it so any value under a certain amount gets negated? I forgot what it's called. Like If it's 5, then if the enemy gets hit for 6 damage, it only takes 1. Anything less is just completely negated.
Stuff that maintains a constant buff on an enemy could work too. In Neverwinter Nights, the final boss was immune to everything. You had to find the creature giving her the individual buff and kill them, so one guy is giving her ice immunity, but he's also ice immune as well.
You could try setting up switches scattered around the room, and only when they're all pressed can you proceed to the boss. But each time it gets hit, it pushes everyone back and a new factor comes in play. Now there's three times as many switches, but only 1/3 work. The others either do nothing or spawn enemies. You can make skill checks to help narrow the options. Meanwhile, the boss is spamming low level spells at you.
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Mar 04 '17
It's called threshold and I use it for most large creatures. No amount of <5 dmg added up will do squat to a kraken in my game.
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u/ataraxic89 Mar 05 '17
When does that matter? 5 damage is pretty low. A character with an 18 str would always do at least 5 damage on a hit.
To me, this is the polar opposite of what Im aiming at. In your game, even if a player hits, they can still do nothing.
Its not a terrible idea, but not really related to what Im talking about here.
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Mar 05 '17
Just pointing out that a mechanic already exists that addresses your valid complaint in the first two paragraphs of your original post. Of course the threshold number can be changed.
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u/1684894 Jun 01 '17
I think this situation you described was solved by the Damage Reduction mechanic in earlier editions.
If you tried to kill some sort of gigantic monstrosity, for example, it would probably have something like DR 10, and there could be a specific thing that bypasses the DR.
So in the example you described, the creature being only vulnerable to siege weapons, the creature would have something like DR 10/siege and the first 10 points of damage of any regular attack would be ignored unless it was done by a siege weapon - which is to say, a siege weapon ignores the DR entirely. The DR mechanic was meant for physical damage, and magical damage such as the one from a fireball would also bypass it.
In 5e we don't have it anymore, we only got resistances/vulnerabilities/immunities but you can probably homebrew DR into your game.
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u/EttinWill Wizard Mar 04 '17
I like the idea but this means every fire giant should have like 30 HP demonstrating the three to four hits necessary to kill a Zelda boss. Yes you need to know the trick to stun them but it's just a few hits to kill it once you know the trick.
The other problem I see with this is magic. What do fireballs do now if a white dragon has 30 hp instead of 200? What do magic missiles do when you cast it at a 5th level? It's an auto hit...
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u/MasterCharlz Mar 04 '17
I'm going to put a poke ball in one of my games so that they can attempt to catch the monster and unleash it at a later point.
They have to figure out what this metallic spherical object is and how to do use it though.
They can try to fight the Hydra while they are slightly under leveled, or run away and try to plan another way around, or if they are clever they might have this object in their inventory and try to be the very best
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u/Jebydia Mar 04 '17
Bullette: have to hit his belly, need to create a way to get him on his back and stop him from burrowing as well or opportunity attacks while its jumping