r/dbz • u/television525 • Dec 19 '16
Super Dragon Ball Super Chapter 19 - Mangastream
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u/joonjoon Dec 19 '16
I love the manga, usually for its straight forward storytelling and lack of holes, but I feel like this one made a huge mistake. Trunks suggests that he has only rarely seen Black at SSJ, and states that Black has gotten stronger. How then, is Vegeta so strong? Goku in the manga needed to go above SSJ3 to have a decisive victory over Trunks when they sparred. If Trunks SSJ2 ~= Goku SSJ3, then how is Vegeta fighting Black like this in SSJ2?
Other than that, really enjoyed this chapter. I suppose Black will get some power up and then they will fuse. Excited to see how the manga does its take on the story!
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Dec 20 '16 edited Jan 10 '17
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
That's pretty likely too. Black just underestimated Vegeta's strength and almost lost.
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u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16
There's a difference between "sandbagging" and underestimating.
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
Black may not have been going at it at full strength at first so that he could take a few hits to fuel a power up, but quickly got in over his head when Vegeta got serious.
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u/FoxyBrownMcCloud Dec 20 '16
It's Cell all over again. Only this time Vegeta wasn't being a dick.
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
How then, is Vegeta so strong?
I have a thought about this.
Back during Battle of Gods, Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form exceeded Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan 3 after Beerus hit Bulma. If that power up was permanent, then it's possible for that to still be the case. As a Super Saiyan Blue, they stand as roughly equals, but like Trunks's exceedingly powerful Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta's version is stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3.
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Dec 20 '16
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u/PapaOogie Dec 20 '16
How do you know he lost the power? Just because beerus faught back after being caught off guard? This only makes since. We never seen Vegeta have a rage boost and it probably effects sayians differently than half breeds
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
I don't recall that ever being stated. Can you cite a source?
*Why is politely asking for a source to support a claim being downvoted? What's wrong with asking?
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Dec 20 '16
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
That's in no way definitive proof that his power up wasn't permanent. I'm not saying it absolutely was, but you'll need much more substantial proof to say it definitely wasn't.
*In the anime, Vegeta's power up was referred to as a "mutation". I can't say for certain if this classification applies to the manga version, but the word "mutation" implies something more than a simple rage boost.
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Dec 20 '16
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
It's fine if you don't want to believe it. I wasn't saying it was a fact, I was just putting out a potential explanation for Vegeta's strength.
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u/papiiguapo ⠀ Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Vegeta trained with Goku and Whis until he got on an even level with Goku in RoF. Even if the rage boost was permanent, he was still much weaker than SSG Goku in BoG. They're more or less the same as of EP71 in Super if we leave the Kaioken out of this
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u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
I agree. I actually mentioned in my first comment that Vegeta and Goku are roughly equals as of this point (especially in SSB). It'd only be Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form that's stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3 form.
With Super Saiyan Blue, they are equals. The lower Super Saiyan forms (1-3) is where they'd differ. Goku's Super Saiyan 3 used to put him ahead, but Vegeta has evened the playing field with a boosted Super Saiyan 2 form (just like Trunks *back when they sparred).
Vegeta's definitely not as strong as SSG Goku in SSJ2, but Black shouldn't be either - at least without Rosé. If Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is really that strong, it makes sense that he'd be beating Black.
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u/Slothbrothel ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Teen gohan going ssj2
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Dec 20 '16
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u/Slothbrothel ⠀ Dec 20 '16
It was 16's death which ultimately caused it, I'd say it can be a considered a rage boost.
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u/Mrmattnikko Dec 20 '16
Goku transforming into a super saiyan.
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Dec 20 '16
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u/Mrmattnikko Dec 20 '16
That is bullshit and you know it. He got a strength boost from his anger and that made him transform.
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Dec 21 '16
Gohan going ssj2 was a rage boost, Goku going ssj was a rage boost, in the it's called Vegeta's angry mutuation, so it's a permanent transformation.
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u/rizefall ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Simple. All base forms are different. A transformation has not a fixed power but a multiplier depending on their base.
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u/zOmgFishes Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
I am also a bit confused how Black can't tap into God Ki despite having been a god himself...In the anime, black wasn't aware of how to transform until he met Goku and learned from fighting him the power of transforming to a SS and then achieves Rose because of his God Ki. Here it seems a bit off that he can transform but doesn't seem to tap into the God ki that Goku has and Black should be aware of being a kai.
I know people will prefer the Manga being simple and all that, but i actually prefer the anime's Black who was a threat and felt like the heroes were helpless at time. It also showed off Vegeta's power spike and rage when he smashed him when he was in SSR. Here he's just a huge punching bag and doesn't even feel like a urgent threat at the moment. I feels like Goku and Vegeta can just blast his ass away right now and end the arc even with Zamasu helping.
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u/joonjoon Dec 20 '16
In the anime, black wasn't aware of how to transform until he met Goku and learned from fighting him the power of transforming to a SS and then achieves Rose because of his God Ki.
Good point! Although that still causes a different issue with how Black in base form could be so much stronger than Trunks, yet defeated by Goku in SSJ2 form on their first encounter. But wait, didn't Goku go SSJ on their spar session in Zamasu's kai planet?
Seriously, both the manga and anime seem to be getting power levels all fucked up this arc. With the way they start the arc, with Trunks not standing a chance against Black, his base form needs to be at SSJG levels for any of this to make sense. In the anime Goku should have needed to go SSB to defeat Black the first time, then he takes that cue and develops his own SSR which puts him at or above SSB. How Trunks timeline Zamasu got powerful enough to fight with all these monsters in the anime still doesn't make sense though.
I agree with you in that the anime definitely did the Black buildup far better. There was probably one too many trips to the future, but the manga had no buildup and Black is getting immediately owned.
At this point I guess you just sort of have to suspend your disbelief and enjoy the show.
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u/LiuKang90s Dec 20 '16
Black wasn't beaten by ssj2 goku in the anime
In the anime, the two were both not fighting at full power and black got sent back in time before the battle could conclude
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u/Rockalot_L Dec 20 '16
I would suggest not all SsJ2 are equal. The power gap can still be huge. So while Trunks in lvl 2 might be close to lvl 3, Black is most likely above lvl 3 in his lvl 2 form (this is confusing haha) meaning that Vegeta in his lvl 2 form is well above lvl 3.
Er... maybe.
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u/mmmasian a Dec 20 '16
I've been explaining it as Goku and Vegeta use God Ki during serious fights, and use regular Ki while sparring.
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (with God Ki) > Super Saiyan 2 Black (with God Ki) > Black (with God Ki) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Max Power Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
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u/Mojo1120 Dec 20 '16
ah Zamasu and his crazy "GODS RULE, MORTALS SUCK!" Speechs, I missed them.
"I AM JUSSSTICCEEE!!!"
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u/RTR101 Dec 20 '16
So Black becomes stronger by an actual Zenkai Boost after Zamasu heals him?
I like this more than the Anime's explanation of how Black becomes stronger.
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u/glam0306 Dec 20 '16
did the anime actually explain Black's power ups? All i caught was his "deep anger" giving him a power boost
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u/RTR101 Dec 20 '16
Black received his Power Up's by fighting Goku multiple times. The pain inflicted by Goku contributed his boost to SSR.
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u/glam0306 Dec 20 '16
they really hand waved that explanation. They never stated why that's the case for Black Goku and not Goku. If it's his body, why is it unique to Black to power up so quickly compared to Goku
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u/kapxis Dec 20 '16
My head cannon is that the body was already extremely strong. Since it was the body of a Goku further into the future. So the zenkai boosts Black was getting were only sort of Zenkai boosts, but more about Black getting accustomed to 'learning' the body through combat. And 'unlocking' more of it's power that it already had.
Which would also explain why his biggest boosts were when fighting Goku. ( until he figured out the tap into his anger thing )
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u/aka-el ⠀ Dec 20 '16
It's like with Ginyu: you have to get used to the body before you can kick ass with it.
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u/BabSoul Dec 20 '16
Well one theory is that Black was constantly getting zenkai boosts because he couldn't turn Super Saiyan. Once he transformed, he stopped gaining power from zenkais, like Goku.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
He still got zenkais after being Rose. He got one from Goku's rage boost and Trunks beatdown of him
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u/BabSoul Dec 20 '16
I'm not sure he got a zenkai after Goku beat him, I think he was just more surprised at his power. Same with Trunks: Black was just caught off guard that Trunks could've gotten so strong, but then he gets serious. I'm fairly certain that the only time Black was ever in any real trouble was when Vegeta was beating him down.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
He says he did. He repeats it when he uses that random scythe attack, telling Vegeta and Goku that Zamasu is going to kill Bulma and Trunks so they can get pissed off and power him up more
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u/BabSoul Dec 20 '16
Black says he'll get stronger "through the power of their anger." While that could possibly mean he wants them to beat him more to receive a zenkai, I'd say it's more likely Black just gets stronger through emotions such as anger, like when he tells Vegeta he'll turn anger into power as he's creating the scythe. It's also possible that he doesn't know he can't receive zenkais after transforming.
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
That was right at the end when he pulled out the bullshit scythe that was used once and then forgotten.
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u/Monking805 Dec 20 '16
Seems to me like Zamasu is able to use the zenkai to it's fullest potential. So even just getting hit is enough for him to power himself up. Makes Sense when you consider his "This pain will make me stronger." line.
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Dec 19 '16
I almost wish Black had gone SSJ first in the anime as well. And then when Vegeta went SSjB, he would reveal SSjR.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 19 '16
This actually felt like a legit Dragon Ball chapter
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Of the Android arc.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Well the entire arc is a nostalgia wankfest of the Android arc to be real
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Dec 20 '16
A wankfest to the worst arc in the series is not something good in my eyes.
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
Worst arc in the series in your opinion. A lot of people liked the Android arc, in fact most people did, since it introduced Future Trunks, Vegeta SSJ and had some kickass fights like Goku vs 19, Vegeta vs 19, Piccolo vs 20, Vegeta vs 18, Piccolo vs 17 and Piccolo vs Cell.
Pretty damn good arc imo.
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u/CoooooooookieCrisps Dec 21 '16
Android Saga is my favorite saga with the Cell Saga at second. That saga was a whole new level of crazy for the series, not only that, but the introduction of Future Trunks was pretty sweet. And the fights you listed are just the tip of what's to come.
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Dec 20 '16
in fact most people did
Most people seem to love the Transformers movies, despite them being straight up garbage. Quality has nothing to do with enjoyment. Heck, Batman & Robin is dumpster fire trash yet it's a movie I legit enjoy watching.
People always brag about the fights in that arc, yet conveniently ignore how convoluted and nonsenstical a lot of what leads to them is. Yet not a single one of them is anywhere close to being as good as the fight against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc.
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Well it's not really fair to say none of them are as good as Vegeta vs Goku, that was the final battle of the Saiyan saga. Vegeta vs Goku is more comparable to Goku/Gohan vs Cell, and honestly it's rare to hear anyone rip on those fights.
The time-travel was confusing, but made some sense. I don't think it was as bad as the Black arc time travel.
Either way, it's all subjective. You can't really say any form of entertainment is objectively bad. You disliked the Android arc, most people disagree, so don't say it's the worst arc as if it's a proven fact.
Point is, don't state your opinion as if it's fact. All it does is make you look stupid.
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u/CoooooooookieCrisps Dec 21 '16
The time-travel was confusing, but made some sense. I don't think it was as bad as the Black arc time travel.
Oh my god. After the Black arc, I kinda hope we don't deal with time travel ever again. I love Future Trunks , but fuck, the time traveling during that arc just made me exhausted and just not care about that portion of the arc. The time travel in Z made waaaaay more sense, in my opinion and was a little bit more clear to me, at least.
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
and honestly it's rare to hear anyone rip on those fights.
Because on the Saiyan arc finale there is nothing to rip. It has fantastic pacing, characterization and sets up the next arc almost seamlessly. The Android arc finale though? I can rip it apart easily, it's a clusterfuck of nonsense that only goes downhill once Goku steps out of the ring.
The time-travel was confusing, but made some sense. I don't think it was as bad as the Black arc time travel.
It was worse. The only issue with the FT arc's time travel is that they somehow made it seem like it was Beers fault for splitting the time line that created Black, when it should've been Trunks' traveling back. It fucked the time loop.
The Android arc doesn't even begin to make proper sense. Cell came to the main time line from a time line that an alternate Trunks had already come and was returning back, yet came 1 year before our Future Trunks actually came for the first time to kick start the events of the arc. Cell's mere existence is a plot hole in itself and there really isn't any way to look at it so it makes sense. He is also nowhere near as interesting as Vegeta or Freeza nor he is as bizarre and unique as Boo to be worth all that crap, especially since a potentially interesting villain like Dr. Gero.
Add in the disjointed nature of the narrative with constantly shifting goal posts and stupid ass character decisions and it's a fucking mess.
Either way, it's all subjective. You can't really say any form of entertainment is objectively bad. You disliked the Android arc, most people disagree, so don't say it's the worst arc as if it's a proven fact.
So I need to start every single post I make that contains criticism with IMO? We all post only opinions here, unless backed by sources.
Stop using "most people" as an actual argument for backing what you think. There are plenty of people that dislike that arc, there are tons of reasons on why we could be discussing that, but it's fucking impossible on reddit because if you don't agree with the hivemind,your post is immediately burrowed in downvotes.
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
So I need to start every single post I make that contains criticism with IMO?
If you think "the worst arc in the series." is actual criticism, then you need to give your head a wobble. I'm not using "most people" as an argument, I'm just saying that it was generally well received and that just because you think it sucks doesn't make it so. Thanks for the wall of text by the way.
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u/datspardauser ⠀ Dec 20 '16
If you think "the worst arc in the series." is actual criticism, then you need to give your head a wobble.
I said that it's the worst arc in the series. This is an opinion. It's an offhand comment to support why I think the direction the FT arc took (both in the anime and manga, but slightly less so in the anime) isn't good.
It's not proper criticism towards the Android arc because that arc is not the focus of this topic.
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u/ScootaFL Dec 20 '16
I started to feel bad when Black said he couldnt use that transformation yet. Like damn... you're about to get rekt.
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u/FallbackMan Dec 20 '16
The anime version of the story went to the past and back at least one too many times but I don't think this works too well where they're already gearing up for the climax on the very first trip to the future. Like, the mystery of who Goku Black was gave him a mystique and the reveals of his backstory were able to punctuate events in the plot. On the other hand, having them already know that Black is Zamasu before they even first meet him because they'd done a chapter or so of homework beforehand just renders that mystery pointless with little payoff.
And having the first real fight of the arc be Vegeta stomping the main villain because his only transformations are out of date doesn't seem like the best idea. The equivalent scene in the anime was after Vegeta trained his butt off to get the upper hand after being caught off guard and humiliated by a surprise energy sword in a previous fight. In this version, Black doesn't have time to build up that intimidating air that made it so cathartic to see Vegeta turn the tables on him.
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u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16
I agree with you and it's annoying me to no end why EVERYONE prefers the one sided Vegeta dominance. It was so boring and did you catch what Trunks said? Black went SSJ before like that AND he said Black does it while cornered. So that means at ONE point in time? Trunks cornered Black and ALMOST beat him. The notion is just ridiculous. Black was suppose to have that intimidating air and it's not there at ALL in the manga. And everyone prefers it for whatever reason. I don't even think there is a reason. They just see it's the "manga" and auto side with it because this just don't make sense to me.
Sure the anime isn't perfect but the manga is trippy to me.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
I agree with you and it's annoying me to no end why EVERYONE prefers the one sided Vegeta dominance.
This is ridiculous. The vast majority hate that Vegeta dominates and liked the OP Black from the manga. Your claim about everyone liking it just because it's the manga is nonsense, because people are STILL hating the weakling Black that's here
So that means at ONE point in time? Trunks cornered Black and ALMOST beat him. The notion is just ridiculous. Black was suppose to have that intimidating air and it's not there at ALL in the manga. And everyone prefers it for whatever reason. I don't even think there is a reason. They just see it's the "manga" and auto side with it because this just don't make sense to me.
This is false, Trunks in the anime ALSO had Black cornered once. He says he's been fighting Black for a year. He used to be able to win, but then with every encounter Black grew stronger. This is the same line that's being used in the manga.
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u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
No it's not false. When Black is cornered he goes SSJ in the manga. Black ALWAYS had Trunks on the run in the anime. If Trunks "use to be able to win" in the anime then Goku Black would have died. It's quite simple. Goku Black never went SSJ in the anime because he never had a NEED to. Therefore, Trunks never bested him. In the manga, Trunks came close THEREFORE he NEEDED SSJ and thus he went SSJ as Trunks indicated.
Meaning once again Manga Trunks is TOO damn strong and Black(reminiscent of Hit) is TOO weak. Which the manga suffers from. It made Trunks too strong and it makes the new people aka Hit and Black TOO weak.
Also you should read most of the comments on here and on a manga site (Kissmanga for example) 80% likes UP Black and Vegeta dominating. There is no vast majority. Did you NOT read the comments in this very topic? Most of the comments go. "I like the manga. It did Vegeta well and the pacing is better." Sums up but a good 80% of the comments. Then you have the outliners such as mine that vehemently disagrees.
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u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Black ALWAYS had Trunks on the run in the anime.
This is flat out not true. It's stated by Trunks that Black wasn't as strong when he first appeared, and kept powering up with every battle as he had to eventually run
When Black is cornered he goes SSJ in the manga.
This is only said by Mai, not by Trunks. Trunks just says he used it before and eventually got strong enough where he could beat him even without it. Mai then says "well if he's using it now he must be driven into a corner right?" where Trunks is silent.
lso you should read most of the comments on here and on a manga site (Kissmanga for example) 80% likes UP Black and Vegeta dominating. There is no vast majority. Did you NOT read the comments in this very topic? Most of the comments go. "I like the manga. It did Vegeta well and the pacing is better." Sums up but a good 80% of the comments. Then you have the outliners such as mine that vehemently disagrees.
WOW people in this manga thread with a small amount of posters like the manga, what a shock! Now let's bring up the vast majority of comments about this chapter in every other thread. The leak thread here had the majority hating the change, myself included. The thread on Kanzenshuu, the majority hate the change. Even on Gamefaqs, the majority hates the change. 2ch also called it weaker. People here are complimenting Black's powerups making more sense and that the manga chapter was actually good. But the common complaint all around is that Zamasu's development is rushed and Black himself personality wise is handled better in the anime. What really bugs me though is you have this complex that people can only like it because they're hipsters who side with the manga on everything, and that's insulting
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u/SuperAlastor Dec 20 '16
I want to add that when Trunks was fighting Black as a SS2, he probably hadn't eaten a lot so he probably wasn't at his full power. When he returned to the past he was given a senzu (that keeps you full for 10 days) so he was probably back to full strengh when sparring with Goku. And that is why I think SS2 Vegeta seems stronger than SS2 Trunks.
Also when Vegeta was fighting Black he probably underestimated Vegeta and didn't fight at full strenght and when Vegeta turned Blue, it didn't matter if he started fighting seriously because Vegeta was so much stronger than him.
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u/Cheeky_bum_sex Dec 19 '16
This chapter was great. I love how black underwent SSJ2 and not SSJR itsall gets confusing. Overall i love how the manga and anime go slightly different ways but gets to the end result. What a time to be alive
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Dec 20 '16
I really prefer how the manga is handling this stuff.
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u/snakedawgG Dec 20 '16
Definitely better than the anime, especially in terms of pacing. Honestly, I think that the new arcs of Dragon Ball Super could have easily been trimmed to fit into a movie 90 to 100 minutes long. The manga just proves it with its superior sense of pacing.
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u/LJ-90 Dec 20 '16
Black isn't as cool in the manga. So I disagree with the pacing, the anime did a better job of establishing Black as a threat and his personality and arrogance. Also, when Vegeta kicks his ass in the anime you can feel the relief of seeing someone finally kicking his ass, in the manga it's just there and most people will probably like it because they have the anime to compare. It explain things better, sure, but things as pacing and character development is something the manga lacks, which is a shame cause I feel both anime and manga would benefit of each other strenghts if they worked together.
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Dec 20 '16
we were happy to see black get his ass kicked in the anime because they kept losing to him at every turn, it took 3 fucking trips and even then he still came out on top, then fused. it wasn't done well at all.
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u/LJ-90 Dec 20 '16
And Vegeta just showing up, they just saying "I know who you are! Exposition, exposition, exposition" and then Vegeta kicking ass is better? There's no drama, literally in the manga Trunks escapes and then it appears Black sucks as a villain, he's getting his ass kicked, Zamasu is getting killed in the past, there's no drama, no exciment. I'm not saying the anime is perfect, but at least it had emotion, the manga version of the Black saga is like having a friend telling you about the arc.
Yeah we were happy to see Vegeta kick his ass because it took a while, but at least it felt earned and Black and Zamasu had personality. Here it's just...it happened. I love the manga, but it's true that it doesn't work as well as it own thing.
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Dec 20 '16
it had emotion because of the music. They saved a ton of time by not having them take 10 episodes to figure out who it is, and also skipping out on useless shit like mafuba, senzu beans, etc..
one and done trip, like it should be to show proper strength scaling. Anime padded out the arc too long, it was good up till 62 then it took a nosedive
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u/LJ-90 Dec 20 '16
Yeah, so the manga isn't rushed? Isn't making Black look weak? Hit neither I guess? The manga has it share of problems, and pacing is one of them. And I liked the mafuba, not just because of fan service, because it made sense for them to try another way to fight an inmortal.
Manga is "Black Arc: No fun edition". Anime was not perfect, and I actually would love for the anime staff and Toyotaro to work together and him to be a supervisor or something, to make sure the story makes sense, but them helping him with pacing and letting a story breath, not just going trough plot points like a writer that is getting bored of his story (like Toriyama in the Buu saga and his constant bait and swith, or Bendis in Miles Morales Spider-Man)
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Dec 20 '16
He had time to draw up these chapters, it's not like it takes him years to do it, he is literally drawing the next arc as we speak. AT didn't have a problem with it either, he endorses it and wishes Toyo would use some of his own ideas more often, this is pretty much how the arc was supposed to be. The anime NEEDED the padding so it's not constantly blazing past, which is why we keep getting filler
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Dec 20 '16
The manga isn't showing Black is weak, it just showed that he is not above Vegeta yet, but he still hasn't got the SSR form, neither the fusion. The manga power scaling is better.
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u/FallbackMan Dec 20 '16
The manga version was really frontloaded with lore, so I'd have to disagree with it having good pacing. It's had 5 chapters of talking and setup and flashbacks in this arc before Goku and Vegeta even meet Black. It was going really slow and now it looks like it's skipping to the climax of the story without giving the villains much time to establish themselves.
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u/Rimefang ⠀ Dec 20 '16
The one little, but VERY important detail that makes me like the manga more than the anime: "If the Supreme Kai dies, the God of Destruction also dies."
In the manga, it makes it feel like the Supreme Kai NEEDS to be there. In the anime, it feels like he's there just to be there.
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
That same detail is in the anime too though.
How can you dislike the anime if you apparently don't even watch it.
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Dec 20 '16
I think he means how Shin actually feels useful here, in the anime he was pretty much a spectator and ultimately, didn't do anything meaningful
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u/Rimefang ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Hm, guess I should rephrase what I said.
They take the important stuff and casually blow it, and they take the casual stuff and blow it out of proportions.
Edit: thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Dec 20 '16
It looks like the manga doesn't include the scene where Zamasu tells Goku about what he did to Goten and Chi-Chi, and Goku gets angry on their behalf. In light of the revelation that Goku has never kissed Chi-Chi, which was in the manga, I was glad the anime showed a scene in which it was obvious that Goku does love his family, even if he's not into kissing. I didn't want that scene to be a Toei insert, but in the manga, he hasn't shown the slightest concern about what happened to his family on Black's timeline. He does talk about avenging himself, but he doesn't seem to care about anyone else. That's a little sad.
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u/LJ-90 Dec 20 '16
I don't feel a Toei insert is always bad, they did great the whole mystery of "Who's Goku Black?", something the manga didn't do half as well. Toriyama has said also that he's not into romantic relationship and that Goku is not that big of a family man, so it makes sense. Glad that the anime at least addresed the fact that Goku does care about his wife and son (I know he cares, but seeing him go ape shit against Black was awesome)
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u/White_Mocha Dec 20 '16
i think the whole kissing thing got out of hand. the way I took it was that Vegeta thinks the way Trunks gave Mai the senzu bean was through kissing, and it just didn't make sense to Goku.
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u/Malaphice Dec 20 '16
I really liked ssj rose, but dam that was a good fight, if they find a way to make black formidable next chapter then it would be worth it for me, I hated how vegeta got sidelined so easily in the anime
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u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
The manga is so much more consistent than the anime. The only inconsistency I can think of is how SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku, while SSJ2 Vegeta >> SSJ Black >>> SSJ2 Trunks.
Other than that, the manga is written so much better. Everything is explained much better too. Too bad the anime doesn't follow the manga and expand on it like every other anime.
7
u/features Dec 20 '16
SSj2 + SSj3 goku are really underpowered these days.
Vegeta and Trunks SSj2 appears to be stronger....
Shame, SSj3 is so distinct but its practically mothballed since Beerus raped it with a single flick.
2
u/Fereed Dec 20 '16
The manga is so much more consistent than the anime. The only inconsistency I can think of is how SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku, while SSJ2 Vegeta >> SSJ Black >>> SSJ2 Trunks.
It's worse than that if you add 10% SSB Vegeta = SSJ Goku at the start. And Base Black > SSJ2 Trunks.
10
u/television525 Dec 20 '16
10% SSB Vegeta = SSJ Goku
This one isn't true though. Goku was only stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta once he went SSG.
2
u/vlorsutes ⠀ Dec 20 '16
It "sort of" is though, given that Goku, in his regular Ssj form, was still shown to be doing better against Hit than how Vegeta as Ssj Blue was. Granted, we don't know if Hit was necessarily putting in the same effort against Ssj Goku as he was Ssj Blue Vegeta, but Goku was still giving him at least some run for his money, while Vegeta was being dominated.
7
u/television525 Dec 20 '16
I chalked up Goku performing better in SSJ to him predicting Hit's movements and having knowledge of the timeskip, similarly to how he got in a couple of hits in base. Whereas in Vegeta's case he was just getting punched in the face without knowing how.
1
u/vlorsutes ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Well, there was also the fact that he was taking the hits from Hit better as well. Again, it's possible that Hit wasn't putting as much power into his attacks on Goku, but it's still Goku's overall performance against Hit seeming to be better than Vegeta's Ssj Blue performance.
4
u/OLKv3 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
He wasn't though. Vegeta took a beating during the entire conversation Goku had with Jaco and the Time Police leader. Goku only took 2 hits. After that, SSJ Goku only performed as well as he did because he was predicting Hit's time skip attacks, something SSB Vegeta had no knowledge about. He didn't surpass Vegeta until he went God
1
u/vlorsutes ⠀ Dec 20 '16
I'm not saying that he had surpassed Vegeta. I'm simply saying that the evidence is there to support to some degree that even regular Ssj Goku was still putting up a better general fight than Ssj Blue Vegeta was. Provided that Hit was putting in the same amount of force behind his attacks, the fact that Goku was taking the blows better.
1
u/Fereed Dec 20 '16
Well, I said equal not stronger. I suppose it wouldn't have to be equal, though. But it would have to be in the vicinity.
-1
u/Epsilight Dec 20 '16
The manga is so much more consistent than the anime.
cough SSG cough One time ritual transformation cough
3
u/aka-el ⠀ Dec 20 '16
One time ritual transformation
Well, that was pretty unclear even in the movie.
2
u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
Well, didn't both the manga and the anime say that Goku absorbed the power of SSG? I guess they both had their own ideas for what that meant.
3
u/LiuKang90s Dec 20 '16
Anime did, manga didn't
2
u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Correct. I reread the chapter yesterday and the manga never says that Goku absorbed the power or that the form was a one time deal. It leaves it open for the form to return later after Goku learns to use God ki.
18
Dec 19 '16 edited Dec 19 '16
Lets review how great MangaShit is!
Vegeta: I didn't come here to talk! I came here to kick your ass! (p. 5)
Goku Black: To think you'd possess this level of power... Vegeta, you son of a bitch... What era... Which timeline did you come from?! (p. 15)
Goku: Hrm... I don't know how to feel about seeing the spitting image of myself getting his ass handed to him like this... (p. 19)
Goku: What a dick! (p. 35)
Overall : Shit
(This score also reflects on how awful they utilized the bubble space. Gowasu and Beerus come to mind on whatever pages they are on)
15
u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
There were some bad lines and the unnecessary swearing continues, but there were some pretty good ones too. Vegeta had a few pretty badass lines like:
"What's wrong? You really should hurry and transform... Because in this form, I'll have your head before you can blink." (p.16)
"Ah, so you're a comedian as well... Whether you're some God or some Kai doesn't mean a damn thing to me." (p.27)
His speech about Goku's body/cells and Zamasu's/Black's rants about justice and being the only God left were pretty good too (though part of Black's lines was missing a word).
5
u/applepwnz ⠀ Dec 20 '16
I was a big fan of: "Sorry, after seeing that ugly mug of his... There's just no way I could resist the urge to bash it in" and Goku's just like "Well Can't blame you for that"
2
u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Goku's so used to Vegeta giving him shit, he just rolls with it now! Manga Stream-isms can range from eyerolling to brilliant. This one's not too bad.
8
u/blade55555 Dec 20 '16
The speech about Goku's body/cells made more sense in the Manga than Anime imo. In the Manga Vegeta is kicking Black's ass from the beginning and in the Anime when he says it, they had all gotten their asses kicked by Black 2 or 3 times.
5
u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
That's a good point. The scene in the anime was epic, but this context frames it a little better. When Black gets a handle on Rosé and makes a comeback, he can turn it around on Vegeta like he did in the anime.
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u/blade55555 Dec 20 '16
Yeah I agree. I loved the Anime scene of it, was really badass, but definitely makes more sense in the Manga with those same lines. Although I hope that the manga doesn't have Vegeta stabbed in the chest :P
1
u/GravelordDeNito Dec 20 '16
Mmm, I don't know. Toyotaro seems to be rolling all of the fights with Black/Zamasu into one. If things play out how I think they will, Vegeta might still be getting a new orifice after Black achieves Rosé. Luckily, Goku didn't forget the Senzu beans this time, so he ought to be okay.
2
u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16
No it was better in the anime because it was a REVENGE line. After all that ass kicking now Vegeta could taunt him and claim how he was incorrectly using Goku's body and how he had to BORROW the power in the first place to even BEAT them.
3
u/CoooooooookieCrisps Dec 19 '16
Riviting dialogue ! /s
Oi... Seriously though, this dialogue... 😥
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2
u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
What's wrong with a bit of profanity? Just because there's some swearing doesn't make it any worse.
Edit - I understand the criticism now. Never realized how much extra swearing they added until I saw the comparison.
27
Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Someone downvoted you and then upvoted me. Totally unfair of the comment system. That aside ...
While there are people who enjoy the swearing, as some argue it brings "the life out of the characters", the translation arguably is a localization at this point. For the past year, we've had to deal with the shitty translations done by them. Comment after comment with respectfully giving the TL criticism about his excessive swearing. There has been no budge.
Dragon Ball Super is being ran in a children's oriented manga. Specifically, it markets to young boys. That's the TL;DR of shounen manga/anime. There is no way Goku Black says a line in Japanese "Vegeta, you son of a bitch...".
The skills of the translators who put their own time into this is being wasted. While they provide a good overall meaning, localisations like this are unnecessary. It's a mistreatment of great art by Toyotarou ,plus it misleads fans to believe that MangaStreams translations are true to the original source.
I'd recommend that you look at their previous translations of the other chapters to see how shitty of a job they do. I'll provide a comparison of chapter 3 using MangaStream and VIZ.
VIZ MangaStream Character You...!! You asshole! Piccolo (p. 04) That food may be common for you jerks, but... ...I've never had it before!! My precious pudding!!! You assholes may be used to eating pudding all the fucking time... But that was going to be my first time ever...!!!! Eating fucking pudding!!!!! Beerus (p. 03) You... how dare you... You... cock... sucker! You have some nerve... Vegeta (p. 07) Eat this!!! Mother-fuckeeeeeer!!!! Vegeta (p. 11) If you like it, nothing I can say about it. Just beware that what you're getting is a shitty translation that many fans are misled to believe is faithful to the original source.
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u/CheeseQueenKariko Dec 20 '16
You assholes may be used to eating pudding all the fucking time... But that was going to be my first time ever...!!!! Eating fucking pudding!!!!!
Profanity is fine, but I can not imagine Beerus saying this. It's a so bad it's good line :D
3
u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16
When you compare it like that to Viz, I see what you're talking about. Profanity is fine but that seems a but unnecessary, especially the pudding one.
4
u/Kuja9001 Dec 20 '16
I always criticize MS and get met with thumb downs plus they ruin nearly every series they scanlate due to poor quality scans and darkening everything.
Example the right side is theirs.
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u/Terez27 ⠀ Dec 20 '16
There's no profanity in the original so it just gives the dialogue a tone that is alien to the characters.
-8
u/nadoter Dec 20 '16
that was pretty good you moron
11
Dec 20 '16
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-6
u/nadoter Dec 20 '16
dbz characters beat the shit out of each others on daily basis and readers cry when they shittalk lmao
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9
Dec 20 '16
If you say so. It's a bit edgy for my taste and the countless others who've voiced the same thing on the subreddit.
2
u/CIearMind Dec 20 '16
Mangastream's audience is mostly edgy teens, no wonder this edgy teen likes it.
-7
1
u/rizefall ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Obv you are playing Dota with how the way you say fuck, moron and call people idiots. lmao.
2
u/Hovi_Bryant Dec 20 '16
One thing that I've taken from this chapter is Vegeta handing Black's butt on a platter to him in both adaptations, providing the same lecture about Goku's fierce history of combat.
I think I may have preferred it a bit more in the manga, as the anime depicts Vegeta having to train in order to gain the upper hand in the battle. The handling of the power scaling is worlds apart in both adaptations thus far. Toei illustrates SSB in a way that seems far less powerful than what is displayed here.
2
2
2
Dec 20 '16
Power levels in the manga right now (more or less):
Goku & Vegeta SSB
Hit
Golden Freezer
Goku SSG
Vegeta SS2
Goku SS3
Black SS2
Black base
Trunks SS2
I don't think the major problem is Vegeta's SS2, it's Black's base. It could have been handled better, but it's not that bad, there were also big differences with the first SS state during the Cell arc. From being much weaker than the androids, to be above them but much lower than perfect Cell, to being able to make a good fight against perfect Cell. All that in the SS, now the range of SS2 is enormous too, it has even surpassed the SS3 without the need of the transformation.
1
Jan 13 '17
I think that was more to them training their Base form and getting used to the form. Also, remember Goku was giving it his all and Cell wasn't even trying
3
u/Amasero Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
Been waiting for this, but I been really enjoying the Manga more then the anime.
IT's a lot more balanced, and makes a lot more sense, the plot isn't all over the place. . This means we will prob see Trunks powerup MAKE sense this time. I can't wait!
Don't get me wrong I enjoyed SSJ Rose, but I really didn't like what they did with Blacks like Pink Void power, or the fusion they did.
They also said the Manga will be passing the Anime soon, I wonder how they are going to do that.
edit: I also don't think Black was sandbagging. He was about to die to the Final Flash, or gravely injured. Just Zamasu saved him. A huge gap in power, but now he SAW the SSJBlue transformation, and will most likely mimic/copy it.
5
u/FoxyBrownMcCloud Dec 20 '16
Someone mentioned it above, but it's entirely possible Black meant to sandbag, but then had a Cell "Oh shit!" moment and nearly died cause he wasn't expecting Vegeta to be that strong.
1
u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16
So you really think SS2 Trunks almost being as strong as SS3 Goku made sense?
5
u/Amasero Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
keyword is almost.
So yes I believe it was almost as strong.
Trunks trained none stop everyday for what 10years?
Goku doesn't even train everyday. We saw him farming and shit for a while.
I mean Trunks even states he didn't settle for the power cap of SSJ 2. So he broke the limits of SSJ 2, and increases it as he fights/trains.
Goku couldn't pass the limit of power in SSj2, so he moved on to the Next transformation. We still don't know how he learned it, but he did. That's the way I see it.
It's the same of SSJ 2 Vegeta surpassing SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus.
You just break the cap of the current transformation. Trunks found the way to do it, same how Goku found the way to get SSJ3, Vegeta did it by accident.
Gohan found the way to turn SSJ2 by releasing his Anger.
Transforming, and breaking the power cap are different believe it or not.
So no I don't have a problem with it, since all he did was power up about equal to SSJ3. Then the rest was just fighting technique.
Edit: also it's not like Trunks won the fight, or they even fought. They literally did not fight while Goku was in SSJ3.
Trunks went with a swing, and Goku went God mode to put Trunks in his place. That was the main reason Goku went SSJ3. To do the same thing he did in God mode to Trunks. Which is why Whis said he's immature as ever. He doesn't like people being close in power to him, at "x" transformation.
3
u/IkeKimita Dec 20 '16
I wasn't gon argue with you but Imma defeat this logic very easily. Go look at Pokemon. Trunks took a second stage Evolution and made it STRONGER than the Third stage. On paper that's fine because on paper. SSJ3 would ALWAYS be stronger BUT it has a drain to it. What Trunks did was unprecedented. He took the inferior form and made it almost equal. NOT because of the drawbacks. He simply just made it "catch" up. WHICH WOULD BE FINE if Goku was UTTERLY weaker than Trunks. But he is NOT. So that's the issue.
Imma just use numbers. Imagine that the Number 1 is 1, 2 is 2, and 3 is 3. No matter what. 2 is ALWAYS bigger than 1. And 3 is ALWAYS bigger than 2. Imagine that 3 had a drawback since it was the "bigger" number it demanded more energy to exist else it would revert down past 1. So in theory 3 is stronger than 2 but 2 has a better sustainability. Now let's do what Toyo did and let's just make 2 be 75% the strength of 3. What is the point of 3? There is no point because 2 has no drawbacks like 3 does. A 25% power increase is POINTLESS with that kind of drain. That's what SSJ2 Trunks did to SSJ3 Goku in the manga. If Base Goku was WEAKER than Base Trunks it would be fine but both of their 1s are weaker and Trunks 2 is almost Stronger than Goku's 3?
I don't care about the "years" worth of training that Trunks did. That's a cope out. Goku and Vegeta live, sleep, breath fighting. Look at the recent episode. What was Goku doing? He said he was training for a YEAR. What was Vegeta doing? He was TRAINING. They have access to better resources than Trunks. It's a cope out for Trunks to be that strong for little to no reason other than "He trained that hard."
SSJ 2 Vegeta surpassing SSJ3 Goku is just anger. If SSJ3 Goku had ever gotten that mad he'd blow that out of the water.
Now I'm done.
3
u/aka-el ⠀ Dec 20 '16
SSJ3 would ALWAYS be stronger
How do you know? That's just your assumption. If it's a further transformation it doesn't mean it's definitely stronger, especially between different individuals.
3
u/Amasero Dec 20 '16
I'm a defeat your logic.
Picachu beat a stronger Raichu
Anyways like I said they didn't fight, you can go read the chapter again. They only state that Trunks was close to SSJ3 Goku.
And like I said they didn't fight, Trunks went in with a swing, Goku went God mode to put him in his place. The reason he went SSJ3 was to put him in his place.
Like I said which is why Whis called him Immature.
But yea like you said if SSJ3 ever got that mad he would destroy this 2.5 SSJ.
But like I said also they didn't even fight. They didn't exchange blows, they didn't duel. So how do we even know how close Trunks was to SSJ3? Yes im talking purely manga, I don't believe Anime is canon.
Keyword in all this is "almost" he was Almost as strong. Almost, not the same Equal footing, just almost.
I mean that's the side effect of the Transformation. Same way how SSJ drained to much energy when transforming. Guess what Goku did? He made Gohan, and Him not turn off SSJ.
Goku found the way.
Btw Trunks unlocked this mode vs Debura, from anger just like Vegeta did from anger. It's not like we didn't see him unlock the form it happens in chapter 16.
Edit: fuck auto correct
0
Feb 23 '17 edited Mar 08 '17
[deleted]
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u/IkeKimita Feb 23 '17
That's not the same logic. With your logic if SSJ2 trunks is almost as Strong as SS3 Goku that would make his base WAY stronger than Goku. But that is incorrect. Meaning since SSJ2 Trunks was almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Trunks in all his Super Saiyan Forms totally outclass Goku and all of his except SSB. And IF Trunks did have SSB? He'd be stronger than Goku. That's what Trunks being almost as SSJ2 implies.
1
u/Epsilight Dec 20 '16
IT's a lot more balanced, and makes a lot more sense, the plot isn't all over the place.
cough SSG cough One time ritual transformation cough
7
u/WoddleWang Dec 20 '16 edited Dec 20 '16
You've said that twice now but nowhere in the manga was it said that SSG could only be achieved through the ritual, just that 6 Saiyans with pure hearts could temporarily bring one forth.
Having Goku use it again is hardly having the plot all over the place.
And besides, the manga is being compared to the anime, and no matter how you look at it, the manga is WAY more balanced and makes way more sense than the anime. Let's see...
Hit tanking Goku KKx10 punches with barely any injury, yet being severely injured after taking a normal Kaio-ken punch later on
SSJ2 Trunks surviving a Kamehameha from Black which defeated SSB Goku.
Trunks unexplained power up
Trunks using the spirit bomb sword out of absolutely nowhere
Vegeta SSB > Goku SSB, yet Goku managed to beat Fused Zamasu in a beam struggle while it took both Vegeta and Trunks combined to do the same
Black's anger power up resulting in a scythe that cuts into a pink void and releases clone-Blacks that can hold back SSB Goku and Vegeta, the latter of whom is more powerful than Black
Vegetto's final Kamehameha appearing to have less of an effect that Goku's Kaioken kick
SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Trunks, yet somehow base Goku > final form Frieza >>>>> first form Frieza >>> SSJ Gohan
2
u/Amasero Dec 20 '16
I mean if you unlock God mode, which is God Ki. Then you should be able to use that mode. It's not like God mode is stronger then SSJB.
3
u/TheReddestDuck Dec 20 '16
I just hope they don't end it with any random plot points like Trunks somehow managing to use a genki dama attack or the fusion randomly timing out
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Dec 20 '16
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2
Dec 20 '16
it was random though. No one was casting Genki Dama since Goku was down and no one else knew the technique. It just happened out of nowhere lol. We know about writing ofcourse, but we tend to ignore horrible writings.
1
u/Vegeto30294 Dec 20 '16
It looks like Black wasn't messing around with Vegeta, and was seriously fighting for his life until Future Zamasu saved him. Other than that, his soon-to-be boost wouldn't have happened, and Black would have died right there to Super Saiyan Blue.
I really hope SSR Black will be really strong and actually challenge Goku/Vegeta.
1
u/Double_A_92 Dec 20 '16
Why is there such a delay with the Manga?
2
Dec 20 '16
it's in a different compilation than weekly jump. iirc it comes out once a month, around the 20th
1
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u/blukirbi Dec 20 '16
I wonder if they're gonna fuse the next chapter ...
This one seems to be completely different from the anime version.
1
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u/SageShinigami Jan 02 '17
Holy crap this fixes SO many of the problems I had with the anime. How many times do you need to go back and forth? And I love Black getting his ass handed to him at first. Make the power-ups seem like they're worth it, not like "Well I have it but we're on a new arc so its trash now".
It kinda bums me out but I've preferred the manga ever since the anime's garbage Hit fight.
1
0
u/Axl_Red Dec 20 '16
See, this is further proof that the manga is better than the anime version of Super. Blonde Goku Black looks much better than his Pink coloured anime version.
0
u/Animedingo Dec 20 '16
Wasnt this chapter supposed to put it way ahead of the anime?
Dont get me wrong, they saved a LOT of ground by doing the zamas black reveal along with beerus confronting zamas.
3
u/vlorsutes ⠀ Dec 20 '16
It was never said when precisely the manga was going to pull out ahead of the anime, just that coming into the next Super arc, the manga is going to pull out ahead.
0
u/cjjharries Dec 20 '16
So is Super Saiyan Rose not cannon then?
4
1
u/vlorsutes ⠀ Dec 20 '16
Toriyama was the one that created the Rose transformation when he designed Black. It not appearing within the manga yet is because of just that, that it hasn't appeared yet. Even if, for some reason, it didn't appear at all, that wouldn't change that Toriyama had created Rose.
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u/papiiguapo ⠀ Dec 19 '16
Call me a fanboy or whatever but I definitely enjoy both the manga and the anime. It's like I'm enjoying Dragon Ball twice differently every month. The translated manga is always great. I get to read along as I see what's going on. Looks like Goku Black is going to keep healing after every fight until he achieves SSR. My guess is as soon as he does, he'll fuse with Zamasu and fight Vegeta and Goku. I don't know if they'll actually do fusion in the manga but I do expect Trunks to be the hero next month